#11
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Tire Rotation
deep
a gradient lies in the forest no. be seriuos. your excess to custom cycles dimmed ypur perceptions here dude! while we folk wrestle with rear bias all you big sky lbs types are running mid weight low(or is that hi) polar moment custom frames. into the trees!! and lets not hear any bs on gary nixon |
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#12
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Tire Rotation
installed by...off course they can, or we can maybe! hollow pedal
shaft! the deal is the gradient and the larch forest. the rubber next to the carcass is not the rubber you wanna run on the road nor was it designed to be. not only is a continuous effectiveness expensive but unneccesary as most will get used to or forget about it and remember only the zippy first grip period. reminds me of a good new baked fresh red potato with hollandaise |
#13
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Tire Rotation
Kovie wrote:
Question: even if a flat profile on the rear tire isn't a safety issue, at what point does it become a performance issue, if at all, in terms of cornering ability, rolling resistance, etc.? Any article links on this? I don't have any links, but I recall reading somewhere that the flattening caused by wear should increase the rolling resistance slightly... but I'm not sure why... something to do with the shape of the contact patch. Thinner rubber would tend to decrease the rolling resistance. As far as cornering goes, there should be some effect there too since you'd be riding on a ridge rather than a nice smooth profile. That is a very good reason not to put a flattened tire on the front, I think. Sheldon's reasoning seems pretty sound... you certainly want the front tire to be in good shape, and if you are using the same tires front and back, it's easy to keep a fresh one on the front. -Ron |
#14
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Tire Rotation
wrote in message
... On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 21:55:56 GMT, "Kovie" wrote: "Sheldon Brown" wrote in message ... Tom Nakashima wrote: I recently purchased two new tires to replace my old tires which have developed a flat profile after approximately 4000 miles. I also have been rotating the tires from front to rear every 500 miles to prolong the profile (keeping it round) as the rear wears faster than the front. I've also been making sure the tires have been properly inflated. There have been articles about rotating a tire from front to rear may not be a good idea for safety reasons. Right, see: http://sheldonbrown.com/tire-rotation It seems to me if you don't rotate the tires what you'll have is a very flat profile on the rear That's not a problem in practice. and not getting best mileage out of the tires. The mileage issue would only apply if you were to replace _pairs_ of tires. My recommendation is to replace tires one at a time, putting the new one on the front and moving the old front one to the rear. With this approach, you'll get the maximum wear life out of your tires, while having the safety benefit of always having the newer tire on the front. Sheldon "Front To Back, Not Back To Front" Brown Question: even if a flat profile on the rear tire isn't a safety issue, at what point does it become a performance issue, if at all, in terms of cornering ability, rolling resistance, etc.? Any article links on this? Dear Kovie, Some pros believe that the tubulars have a rounder profile than clinchers and that they can feel this difference as they lean over in a corner and then lean back up. In terms of rolling resistance, the more material removed from the original tire, the less there is to squash, just as an ultralight thin inner tube should have less rolling resistance than a thick thorn-resistant tube. Weigh the new tire, weigh it again when it's worn, and we'd have a better idea of what's involved. It's likely that this is a princess-and-the-pea matter, in which people are going to "feel" an advantage or problem according to their pre-conceptions. One test would be if a rider could tell the difference between normal, thick, and thin inner tubes installed by someone else. Carl Fogel Perhaps I used the wrong term (it's been a while since I took high school physics), but by "rolling resistance" I meant the frictional resistance encountered between tire and road when the bike is in motion. The flatter the tire, the more contact area there is between both surfaces and thus the more there is to "push" while pedaling. Obviously, you want some surface contact or else you won't have traction, but from what I understand, the more surface are in contact, the higher this resistance. I think you're referring to the inertial resistance of a body at rest to being put in motion, in this case rotationally. The heavier the wheel, whether due to a heavier rim, spokes, tube, tires, etc., the greater this resistance, making acceleration harder. I believe this is why racers prefer lighter wheels (except in certain situations such as time trials, in which, I think, too-light wheels are bad, because they tend to lose rotational momentum faster than heavier wheels, but I may be wrong about this). In any case, I believe that the two resistances are different, but I may have used the wrong terms here. -- Kovie zen |
#15
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Tire Rotation
It has been suggested than one of the reasons Continental produced
their "Attack & Force" combination (different front and rear tires) was really to prevent tire rotation as opposed to producing a performance benefit. |
#16
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Tire Rotation
On 11 Aug 2005 01:47:20 -0700, "Rik O'Shea"
wrote: It has been suggested than one of the reasons Continental produced their "Attack & Force" combination (different front and rear tires) was really to prevent tire rotation as opposed to producing a performance benefit. Nice anonymous dig on the company. Way to go. JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com **************************** |
#17
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Tire Rotation
Tom Nakashima wrote: I recently purchased two new tires to replace my old tires which have developed a flat profile after approximately 4000 miles. I also have been rotating the tires from front to rear every 500 miles to prolong the profile (keeping it round) as the rear wears faster than the front. I've also been making sure the tires have been properly inflated. There have been articles about rotating a tire from front to rear may not be a good idea for safety reasons. "Kovie" wrote in message k.net... Question: even if a flat profile on the rear tire isn't a safety issue, at what point does it become a performance issue, if at all, in terms of cornering ability, rolling resistance, etc.? Any article links on this? Kovie zen I don't have a link either or even tired to search for one. My results are based on actual riding. Let me try to clear this up: After pilling on the miles, my tires had developed a square profile from the original round radius, which is slightly more pronounced on the rear. I've heard when this happens, it's time to change tires, as it could be dangerous to ride on this profile on the front....and there is also a slight performance loss, which the experts call "rolling resistance". I've been riding the same weekday training ride just about everyday for the last 9 years, so I know the road well and speed checks along the whole route. There's one section on the descent that I gauge as my maximum speed of 33-35mph before the tire change. When I put on the new tires (yes I purchased 2 and the same size and brand, same air pressure) with the rounded profile my speed increased to 39-41 mph on the descent....averaged checked over 10 rides as I reset my cyclometer before I begin each ride. On the flats my speeds have increased 1 to 2 mph, but on the climbs I see no difference in speed. In cornering ability, the bike feels the same. About that test rolling resistance test, I have a few questions: 1. Are the results the same after the profile of the tires starts to change? a. perhaps a check of the rolling resistance right out of the box, then at 500 miles, again at 1000 miles, and once more at 2000 miles. 2. The test only applies to flat roads and descents and not ascents? a. I feel no difference in rolling resistance on the ascents and if it is there, it's ever so slight. -tom |
#18
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Tire Rotation
"Kovie" wrote in message
Question: even if a flat profile on the rear tire isn't a safety issue, at what point does it become a performance issue, if at all, in terms of cornering ability, rolling resistance, etc.? Tom Nakashima wrote: After pilling on the miles, my tires had developed a square profile from the original round radius, which is slightly more pronounced on the rear. I've heard when this happens, it's time to change tires, as it could be dangerous to ride on this profile on the front....and there is also a slight performance loss, which the experts call "rolling resistance". I'm not convinced of this. I would expect worn tires to have _less_ rolling resistance, because as they get thinner they get more flexible. The reason for replacing worn tires is that the thinnest part becomes so thin that it takes a smaller and smaller sliver of glass or whatever to poke through to the tube, so you start getting more flats. I've been riding the same weekday training ride just about everyday for the last 9 years, so I know the road well and speed checks along the whole route. There's one section on the descent that I gauge as my maximum speed of 33-35mph before the tire change. When I put on the new tires (yes I purchased 2 and the same size and brand, same air pressure) with the rounded profile my speed increased to 39-41 mph on the descent....averaged checked over 10 rides as I reset my cyclometer before I begin each ride. On the flats my speeds have increased 1 to 2 mph, but on the climbs I see no difference in speed. I can't believe that this is due to the use of new vs old tires. Rolling resistance is such a small percentage of total retarding force, especially at high speeds like that that even if you installed totally frictionless tires I don't believe it would give you half a mph of speed improvement. I think there's some placebo effect involved here. Sheldon "Skeptic" Brown +-----------------------------------------+ | Well, the truth is usually just | | an excuse for a lack of imagination... | | --Garak, DS-9 | +-----------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com |
#19
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Tire Rotation
"Kovie" wrote:
Perhaps I used the wrong term (it's been a while since I took high school physics), but by "rolling resistance" I meant the frictional resistance encountered between tire and road when the bike is in motion. Right, that's what we all mean by the term. I don't recall this being covered in my high school physics class, but that was a looooong time ago. The flatter the tire, the more contact area there is between both surfaces and thus the more there is to "push" while pedaling. Obviously, you want some surface contact or else you won't have traction, but from what I understand, the more surface are in contact, the higher this resistance. Not exactly. The contact area is mainly determined by the air pressure in the tire and the weight load on that wheel. Rolling resistance comes from the hystertic losses involved in bending the tire from its round shape to the flat shape the part incontact with the road has. The thicker the rubber, the stiffer the tire and the more energe is requried to re-shape the tire as the contact patch rolls along. With modern road tires, properly inflated, rolling resistance is so low as to be virtually insignificant compared with aerodynamic friction except at very low speeds. Sheldon "Rolling Resistance" Brown +-----------------------------------------+ | The wind and waves are always on the | | side of the ablest navigators. | | --Edward Gibbon | +-----------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com |
#20
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Tire Rotation
"Sheldon Brown" wrote in message
... "Kovie" wrote: Perhaps I used the wrong term (it's been a while since I took high school physics), but by "rolling resistance" I meant the frictional resistance encountered between tire and road when the bike is in motion. Right, that's what we all mean by the term. I don't recall this being covered in my high school physics class, but that was a looooong time ago. Well, it was AP physics (mock condescensing emphasis on "was" ;-) ), but it was a pretty long time ago for me, too. I think it was covered under mechanics, specifically energy and friction. Glad to see that my memory hasn't completely failed me...yet. The flatter the tire, the more contact area there is between both surfaces and thus the more there is to "push" while pedaling. Obviously, you want some surface contact or else you won't have traction, but from what I understand, the more surface are in contact, the higher this resistance. Not exactly. The contact area is mainly determined by the air pressure in the tire and the weight load on that wheel. Rolling resistance comes from the hystertic losses involved in bending the tire from its round shape to the flat shape the part incontact with the road has. The thicker the rubber, the stiffer the tire and the more energe is requried to re-shape the tire as the contact patch rolls along. Not sure this is what I was taught, but again it was a while ago. ;-) With modern road tires, properly inflated, rolling resistance is so low as to be virtually insignificant compared with aerodynamic friction except at very low speeds. Sheldon "Rolling Resistance" Brown I seem to recall that there were at least 4 different kinds of friction involved here. One, the static friction between tire and road--the "good" friction, because it provides necessary traction. Two, the rolling resistance discussed here. Three, the air resistance as the bike/tire move forward (trainers need not be concerned about this one). And four, the air resistance as the tire rotates. And I imagine that each of the latter two also has a "turbulence" component that becomes more pronounced as speed increases. So I can see how rolling resistance is just a part of a much more complex picture, and a small one at that. Now if I can only find my old physics textbook... -- Kovie zen |
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