Electric Bikes

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 6:01:38 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jun 2021 13:12:38 -0700, Joerg
wrote:
On 6/2/21 9:12 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 8:56:35 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 6/2/21 8:25 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 4:02:12 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 6/1/21 3:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 11:50:01 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 6/1/21 11:18 AM, pH wrote:
[...]
The game changer, of course, is the Li ion technology since if was so easy
for uninformed users to kill off their lead acid battery pack.

Li-Ion also has its issues. For example, even top brand manufacturers do
not seem to understand that it is not a good idea to top off a Li-Ion
battery at close to 100% charge and then leave the bike in the garage
that way. This results in premature aging and loss of capacity. The
smarter way is to offer 80% or so which is plenty for a short ride into
town. Then let users top it off in the morning when they expect to go on
a very long ride. In the same way, don't ride it all the way down to
where the low-batt cutoff turns it off, at least not often.
NiMH would be more robust, but that chemistry never seemed to catch on
before Lithium came on the scene.

[...]
Actually, L-ion doesn't like 100% charge under any circumstances.
It's ok if you use it right away. There is always a toll to be paid but
then it's small. Thing is, most people do not know. Sadly, many
engineers don't seem to know either and then they design stuff that
ruins batteries over time by charging them 100% every single time, and
people buy it.
New batteries are on the way. I'm wondering if they will be able to make
super-capacitors work. I read a short paragraph by a man who was a
graphene expert who seemed to think that super capacitors were already
on the horizon.

They say that for a couple of decades now :-)
--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Yes, they have and each year they've gotten closer. Being able to charge in minutes and not have any components that chemically degrade is so attractive that I'm fairly certain that this will be the answer.

Afraid we won't live long enough to enjoy that. The other issue is that
then all the electric vehicle commuters will want to recharge in 10mins
after they got home around 6pm so they can drive to a nice restaurant
with their spouses. Suddenly a bazillion kilowatts is demanded from the
power grid and ... po0f :-)
--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
You voice the problem of E-cars that is the unspoken problem. The fossil fuels STILL have to be burned to generate the electricity to charge the cars. The combination of efficiency of both sources is the same as a good gas driven car.


If it charges via solar like friends do it who live de-facto off grid,
then it's ok. But one fine day it won't be sunny, there is no wind but
one has to run an errand. Then ... it's the gas generator.
Back when I lived on a sailing yacht I got quite interested in off
grid living and read a number of articles about it and an interesting
fact was that every one of these off-grid people had a liquid fuel
fired generator set out in the back yard :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Yes, kind of humorous or ironic. But police today still carry night sticks.. Even though they carry high capacity semi auto pistols holding 15+ rounds and several spare magazines. They might have to kill some many peaceful protesters that their only back up is to beat people in the head with a night stick.

On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 10:11:25 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 3:25:06 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/2/2021 4:12 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 6/2/21 9:12 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 8:56:35 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 6/2/21 8:25 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 4:02:12 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 6/1/21 3:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 11:50:01 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 6/1/21 11:18 AM, pH wrote:
[...]
The game changer, of course, is the Li ion technology since if
was so easy
for uninformed users to kill off their lead acid battery pack.

Li-Ion also has its issues. For example, even top brand
manufacturers do
not seem to understand that it is not a good idea to top off a
Li-Ion
battery at close to 100% charge and then leave the bike in the
garage
that way. This results in premature aging and loss of capacity. The
smarter way is to offer 80% or so which is plenty for a short
ride into
town. Then let users top it off in the morning when they expect
to go on
a very long ride. In the same way, don't ride it all the way down to
where the low-batt cutoff turns it off, at least not often.
NiMH would be more robust, but that chemistry never seemed to
catch on
before Lithium came on the scene.

[...]
Actually, L-ion doesn't like 100% charge under any circumstances..
It's ok if you use it right away. There is always a toll to be paid
but
then it's small. Thing is, most people do not know. Sadly, many
engineers don't seem to know either and then they design stuff that
ruins batteries over time by charging them 100% every single time, and
people buy it.
New batteries are on the way. I'm wondering if they will be able to
make
super-capacitors work. I read a short paragraph by a man who was a
graphene expert who seemed to think that super capacitors were already
on the horizon.

They say that for a couple of decades now :-)
--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Yes, they have and each year they've gotten closer. Being able to
charge in minutes and not have any components that chemically
degrade is so attractive that I'm fairly certain that this will be
the answer.

Afraid we won't live long enough to enjoy that. The other issue is that
then all the electric vehicle commuters will want to recharge in 10mins
after they got home around 6pm so they can drive to a nice restaurant
with their spouses. Suddenly a bazillion kilowatts is demanded from the
power grid and ... po0f :-)
--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
You voice the problem of E-cars that is the unspoken problem. The
fossil fuels STILL have to be burned to generate the electricity to
charge the cars. The combination of efficiency of both sources is the
same as a good gas driven car.


If it charges via solar like friends do it who live de-facto off grid,
then it's ok. But one fine day it won't be sunny, there is no wind but
one has to run an errand. Then ... it's the gas generator.
One acquaintance of mine has an all-electric car and a very large solar
array on his house. His system is set up to first recharge the car. When
the car is topped up, the system sends electricity back to the power
company, reducing his bill. He's very happy with it.
Until the solar cells have to be replaced. Then the hammer falls. When I attended a solar fair the salesmen were busy telling everyone that the cells lasted for 20 years. I went back and talked to the engineer who worked at that company. He said, 5 years until the output drops 50%, another 5 years for another 50% and by 15 years the output was so low that you weren't really getting any power out of them. And he said that this would only work if you kept the cells clean and in most places dust collects on the cells and must be carefully cleaned off. They took aerial shots of the so-called "solar farms" and they were broken down and falling apart within 5 years. Thermal expansion and contraction in the very hot and then very cold desert areas is not good for them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert...ght_Solar_Farm
Mojave desert in southern California. Began 2015. 6 years ago. I guess they did not get your declaration that "they were broken down and falling apart within 5 years." declaration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topaz_Solar_Farm
Mid way between SF and LA. Going since 2014. Close to 7 years ago. They did not hear, or ignored, your knowledgeable declaration too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateline_Solar
This one is near Vegas. Not quite 5 years old. So it will be broken down and inoperable in six months according to your wise proclamations.

Looks like someone else is going to ignore your wise directives too. Fools!
https://interestingengineering.com/a...ifornia-desert

On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 10:22:03 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Windmills almost never make their own costs back. But governments can pretend otherwise and even issue reports saying they are effective and efficient when they are not.

But trust your Democrat government. They are doing so well in the cities that you can tell they really know what they are doing.

https://www.holland.com/global/touri...20once%20again.

Lou is from the Netherlands. Fool! Compared to your knowledge. Those foolish Dutch have been using windmills for hundreds of years to pump water out of their below sea level ground to make it livable and arable. I bet it cost those Dutch several hundred Guilders to build windmills back in the 1700s. Obvious waste of money according to you. Dutch government was probably the precursor to the Democratic party here in the US for wasting so much money so foolishly. Helping and improving your country and making people's lives better! Laughable.

On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 8:18:53 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 10:22:03 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Windmills almost never make their own costs back. But governments can pretend otherwise and even issue reports saying they are effective and efficient when they are not.

But trust your Democrat government. They are doing so well in the cities that you can tell they really know what they are doing.
https://www.holland.com/global/touri...20once%20again.

Lou is from the Netherlands. Fool! Compared to your knowledge. Those foolish Dutch have been using windmills for hundreds of years to pump water out of their below sea level ground to make it livable and arable. I bet it cost those Dutch several hundred Guilders to build windmills back in the 1700s. Obvious waste of money according to you. Dutch government was probably the precursor to the Democratic party here in the US for wasting so much money so foolishly. Helping and improving your country and making people's lives better! Laughable.


According do Tom's standards we are all communists here. All the mandatory insurances for unemployment, healthcare, pension, payed sick leave for two years, disability insurance, payed maternity leave for at least 16 weeks..... Democrats in the US? Sissies.
I'm close to retirement now and I (almost) never claimed anything except for my coming pension. All those payed premiums down the drain but I'm happy I never got seriously sick, unemployed, disabled or pregnant.

Lou

On 6/3/2021 11:22 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 8:03:51 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/2/2021 8:05 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jun 2021 18:25:00 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:


One acquaintance of mine has an all-electric car and a very large solar
array on his house. His system is set up to first recharge the car. When
the car is topped up, the system sends electricity back to the power
company, reducing his bill. He's very happy with it.

Out of curiosity has your acquaintance ever calculated the pay back on
the system?
Not as far as I know, and I doubt the payback matters to him. He's
extremely committed to environmental issues. For him, his system is just
The Right Thing To Do.

What is the environmental damage from the construction and then destruction of solar panel arrays? This is not a minor problem. Do you have any idea of the maintenance problem of large dams? ...

Not to mention the environmental damage from mining and burning coal,
drilling for oil, converting huge portions of our corn crop into fuel...

Tom, I think much wiser minds than yours have properly considered issues
long ago.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/3/2021 11:11 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 3:25:06 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

One acquaintance of mine has an all-electric car and a very large solar
array on his house. His system is set up to first recharge the car. When
the car is topped up, the system sends electricity back to the power
company, reducing his bill. He's very happy with it.

Until the solar cells have to be replaced. Then the hammer falls. When I attended a solar fair the salesmen were busy telling everyone that the cells lasted for 20 years. I went back and talked to the engineer who worked at that company. He said, 5 years until the output drops 50%, another 5 years for another 50% and by 15 years the output was so low that you weren't really getting any power out of them.

Bull****. Your memory (or imagination) is faulty yet again.

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy12osti/51664.pdf

Typical degradation is less than one percent per year. 25 year
warranties are quite common, and they don't shut off at 25 years, they
just produce less electricity.

See also
https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/ho...gradation-rate

or many other sources.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/2/2021 7:01 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jun 2021 13:12:38 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

If it charges via solar like friends do it who live de-facto off grid,
then it's ok. But one fine day it won't be sunny, there is no wind but
one has to run an errand. Then ... it's the gas generator.

Back when I lived on a sailing yacht I got quite interested in off
grid living and read a number of articles about it and an interesting
fact was that every one of these off-grid people had a liquid fuel
fired generator set out in the back yard :-)

I don't see a big problem with that, depending on one's objectives.

I've ridden through Amish areas near my and seen solar panels on
buildings. It fits their philosophy of staying relatively disconnected
from the rest of society. I know that at least some of the Amish
parishes near me allow limited use of I.C. engines for things other than
transportation.

Using solar electricity as much as practical could still confer higher
energy independence and lower CO2 even if you had to fire up the
generator on occasion. There's no law calling for absolute purity.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/3/2021 12:38 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 12:28:56 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/2/2021 10:56 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 6/2/21 8:25 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 4:02:12 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 6/1/21 3:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 11:50:01 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 6/1/21 11:18 AM, pH wrote:
[...]
The game changer, of course, is the Li ion technology
since if was so easy
for uninformed users to kill off their lead acid
battery pack.

Li-Ion also has its issues. For example, even top brand
manufacturers do
not seem to understand that it is not a good idea to
top off a Li-Ion
battery at close to 100% charge and then leave the bike
in the garage
that way. This results in premature aging and loss of
capacity. The
smarter way is to offer 80% or so which is plenty for a
short ride into
town. Then let users top it off in the morning when
they expect to go on
a very long ride. In the same way, don't ride it all
the way down to
where the low-batt cutoff turns it off, at least not
often.
NiMH would be more robust, but that chemistry never
seemed to catch on
before Lithium came on the scene.

[...]
Actually, L-ion doesn't like 100% charge under any
circumstances.
It's ok if you use it right away. There is always a toll
to be paid but
then it's small. Thing is, most people do not know.
Sadly, many
engineers don't seem to know either and then they design
stuff that
ruins batteries over time by charging them 100% every
single time, and
people buy it.
New batteries are on the way. I'm wondering if they will
be able to make
super-capacitors work. I read a short paragraph by a man
who was a
graphene expert who seemed to think that super capacitors
were already
on the horizon.

They say that for a couple of decades now :-)
--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Yes, they have and each year they've gotten closer. Being
able to charge in minutes and not have any components that
chemically degrade is so attractive that I'm fairly
certain that this will be the answer.


Afraid we won't live long enough to enjoy that. The other
issue is that then all the electric vehicle commuters will
want to recharge in 10mins after they got home around 6pm so
they can drive to a nice restaurant with their spouses.
Suddenly a bazillion kilowatts is demanded from the power
grid and ... po0f :-)

So I guess it's inherent and structural that we can't really
judge electric vehicle owners and their anger management
failures

https://nypost.com/2021/06/01/e-bike...ould-kill-you/
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

White person! Not black! I thought only blacks had issues with cops. Of course the article does say "The still-at-large suspect" Guessing if he had been black, they would have shot him down in a hail of bullets and called out every SWAT team in the city. But being white I guess we can ignore it. He's a good patriotic American, just like those patriots who broke into the Capitol by smashing windows and bludgeoning the cops with stanchions.

Big 5" wide mountain bike tire e-bike. I always find the rims on those bikes funny. Holes in the rim to allow the tube to bulge through. Weird.


They run 8 to 12 psi so although I agree it's visually
offensive it does make perfect sense. Less aluminum, more
"Wowie Mabel lookie that thang" sales benefit. Know your
audience I suppose.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 4:04:05 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/3/2021 12:38 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 12:28:56 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/2/2021 10:56 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 6/2/21 8:25 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 4:02:12 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 6/1/21 3:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 11:50:01 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 6/1/21 11:18 AM, pH wrote:
[...]
The game changer, of course, is the Li ion technology
since if was so easy
for uninformed users to kill off their lead acid
battery pack.

Li-Ion also has its issues. For example, even top brand
manufacturers do
not seem to understand that it is not a good idea to
top off a Li-Ion
battery at close to 100% charge and then leave the bike
in the garage
that way. This results in premature aging and loss of
capacity. The
smarter way is to offer 80% or so which is plenty for a
short ride into
town. Then let users top it off in the morning when
they expect to go on
a very long ride. In the same way, don't ride it all
the way down to
where the low-batt cutoff turns it off, at least not
often.
NiMH would be more robust, but that chemistry never
seemed to catch on
before Lithium came on the scene.

[...]
Actually, L-ion doesn't like 100% charge under any
circumstances.
It's ok if you use it right away. There is always a toll
to be paid but
then it's small. Thing is, most people do not know.
Sadly, many
engineers don't seem to know either and then they design
stuff that
ruins batteries over time by charging them 100% every
single time, and
people buy it.
New batteries are on the way. I'm wondering if they will
be able to make
super-capacitors work. I read a short paragraph by a man
who was a
graphene expert who seemed to think that super capacitors
were already
on the horizon.

They say that for a couple of decades now :-)
--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Yes, they have and each year they've gotten closer. Being
able to charge in minutes and not have any components that
chemically degrade is so attractive that I'm fairly
certain that this will be the answer.


Afraid we won't live long enough to enjoy that. The other
issue is that then all the electric vehicle commuters will
want to recharge in 10mins after they got home around 6pm so
they can drive to a nice restaurant with their spouses.
Suddenly a bazillion kilowatts is demanded from the power
grid and ... po0f :-)

So I guess it's inherent and structural that we can't really
judge electric vehicle owners and their anger management
failures

https://nypost.com/2021/06/01/e-bike...ould-kill-you/
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

White person! Not black! I thought only blacks had issues with cops. Of course the article does say "The still-at-large suspect" Guessing if he had been black, they would have shot him down in a hail of bullets and called out every SWAT team in the city. But being white I guess we can ignore it. He's a good patriotic American, just like those patriots who broke into the Capitol by smashing windows and bludgeoning the cops with stanchions.

Big 5" wide mountain bike tire e-bike. I always find the rims on those bikes funny. Holes in the rim to allow the tube to bulge through. Weird.

They run 8 to 12 psi so although I agree it's visually
offensive it does make perfect sense. Less aluminum, more
"Wowie Mabel lookie that thang" sales benefit. Know your
audience I suppose.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I know why it works due to the very low air pressure in the tires as you mentioned. But it just looks weird having holes in your rim and seeing the inner tube (or maybe its really the rim liner) bulging out. Weird looking.

On Thu, 3 Jun 2021 08:11:23 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 3:25:06 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/2/2021 4:12 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 6/2/21 9:12 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 8:56:35 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 6/2/21 8:25 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 4:02:12 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 6/1/21 3:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 11:50:01 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 6/1/21 11:18 AM, pH wrote:
[...]
The game changer, of course, is the Li ion technology since if
was so easy
for uninformed users to kill off their lead acid battery pack.

Li-Ion also has its issues. For example, even top brand
manufacturers do
not seem to understand that it is not a good idea to top off a
Li-Ion
battery at close to 100% charge and then leave the bike in the
garage
that way. This results in premature aging and loss of capacity. The
smarter way is to offer 80% or so which is plenty for a short
ride into
town. Then let users top it off in the morning when they expect
to go on
a very long ride. In the same way, don't ride it all the way down to
where the low-batt cutoff turns it off, at least not often.
NiMH would be more robust, but that chemistry never seemed to
catch on
before Lithium came on the scene.

[...]
Actually, L-ion doesn't like 100% charge under any circumstances.
It's ok if you use it right away. There is always a toll to be paid
but
then it's small. Thing is, most people do not know. Sadly, many
engineers don't seem to know either and then they design stuff that
ruins batteries over time by charging them 100% every single time, and
people buy it.
New batteries are on the way. I'm wondering if they will be able to
make
super-capacitors work. I read a short paragraph by a man who was a
graphene expert who seemed to think that super capacitors were already
on the horizon.

They say that for a couple of decades now :-)
--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Yes, they have and each year they've gotten closer. Being able to
charge in minutes and not have any components that chemically
degrade is so attractive that I'm fairly certain that this will be
the answer.

Afraid we won't live long enough to enjoy that. The other issue is that
then all the electric vehicle commuters will want to recharge in 10mins
after they got home around 6pm so they can drive to a nice restaurant
with their spouses. Suddenly a bazillion kilowatts is demanded from the
power grid and ... po0f :-)
--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
You voice the problem of E-cars that is the unspoken problem. The
fossil fuels STILL have to be burned to generate the electricity to
charge the cars. The combination of efficiency of both sources is the
same as a good gas driven car.


If it charges via solar like friends do it who live de-facto off grid,
then it's ok. But one fine day it won't be sunny, there is no wind but
one has to run an errand. Then ... it's the gas generator.
One acquaintance of mine has an all-electric car and a very large solar
array on his house. His system is set up to first recharge the car. When
the car is topped up, the system sends electricity back to the power
company, reducing his bill. He's very happy with it.

Until the solar cells have to be replaced. Then the hammer falls. When I attended a solar fair the salesmen were busy telling everyone that the cells lasted for 20 years. I went back and talked to the engineer who worked at that company. He said, 5 years until the output drops 50%, another 5 years for another 50% and by 15 years the output was so low that you weren't really getting any power out of them. And he said that this would only work if you kept the cells clean and in most places dust collects on the cells and must be carefully cleaned off. They took aerial shots of the so-called "solar farms" and they were broken down and falling apart within 5 years. Thermal expansion and contraction in the very hot and then very cold desert areas is not good for them.

Interesting... but Sunpower warranties 90% to year 12, and other U.S.
companies guarantee 90% at year 10, and 80% at 25.

see http://sroeco.com/solar/solar-panel-warranty-documents/
for guarantee offered by various companies in U.S.
--
Cheers,

John B.