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Build it and ... why aren't they coming?



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 3rd 19, 04:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 3,566
Default Build it and ... why aren't they coming?

On Thursday, January 3, 2019 at 5:19:15 AM UTC-8, duane wrote:
On 03/01/2019 6:44 a.m., Duane wrote:
James wrote:
On 3/1/19 10:14 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ms/2319972002/




There are some people who claim our MHL didn't (and doesn't) dissuade
people from riding. No doubt there are confounding factors when people
try to find a causal link between MHL and bicycle use.

Fuel prices are well known to be a driving factor in public transport
use, for example.


I doubt you can tell much by country wide stats. It even differs by area
in the same city.
I know here in Montreal the numbers are increasing, especially in the urban
areas. The bike paths are full. Whether or not they’re safe is a
different question.

I live in the suburbs and commute to town. There are fewer people doing
this. For some, it’s the distance. For others it is definitely the lack
of infrastructure. The lack of lockers, showers and safe bike storage on
the job also enter into it.


That said, we had freezing rain yesterday and the temperature dropped to
-16C. This morning it was snowing with some accumulation. I saw 2
riders on fat bikes commuting from my neighborhood and another couple on
my way in.


People freak out when it snows around here. We get some accumulation most years which sticks around for a few days but rarely more than a week. Anyway, when it starts to fall -- often in the late afternoon, the city turns into a parking lot, and the best option is actually a bike. Fresh snow is pretty grippy, and I've ridden home on 23mm tires and stayed upright. And I rode the five or six miles home in one-quarter the time it would have taken to drive. When the snow re-freezes or its sheet ice, it's hard to stay upright even on studded bike tires. Only the DUII cyclists or the super hard-core ride, and they often regret it. I couldn't imagine living in the Mid West or some place where there was snow on the ground for long periods of time and below zero F on a regular basis. I'd move to Phoenix.

-- Jay Beattie.
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  #12  
Old January 3rd 19, 04:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 226
Default Build it and ... why aren't they coming?

On 03/01/2019 10:10 a.m., jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, January 3, 2019 at 5:19:15 AM UTC-8, duane wrote:
On 03/01/2019 6:44 a.m., Duane wrote:
James wrote:
On 3/1/19 10:14 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ms/2319972002/




There are some people who claim our MHL didn't (and doesn't) dissuade
people from riding. No doubt there are confounding factors when people
try to find a causal link between MHL and bicycle use.

Fuel prices are well known to be a driving factor in public transport
use, for example.


I doubt you can tell much by country wide stats. It even differs by area
in the same city.
I know here in Montreal the numbers are increasing, especially in the urban
areas. The bike paths are full. Whether or not they’re safe is a
different question.

I live in the suburbs and commute to town. There are fewer people doing
this. For some, it’s the distance. For others it is definitely the lack
of infrastructure. The lack of lockers, showers and safe bike storage on
the job also enter into it.


That said, we had freezing rain yesterday and the temperature dropped to
-16C. This morning it was snowing with some accumulation. I saw 2
riders on fat bikes commuting from my neighborhood and another couple on
my way in.


People freak out when it snows around here. We get some accumulation most years which sticks around for a few days but rarely more than a week. Anyway, when it starts to fall -- often in the late afternoon, the city turns into a parking lot, and the best option is actually a bike. Fresh snow is pretty grippy, and I've ridden home on 23mm tires and stayed upright. And I rode the five or six miles home in one-quarter the time it would have taken to drive. When the snow re-freezes or its sheet ice, it's hard to stay upright even on studded bike tires. Only the DUII cyclists or the super hard-core ride, and they often regret it. I couldn't imagine living in the Mid West or some place where there was snow on the ground for long periods of time and below zero F on a regular basis. I'd move to Phoenix.

-- Jay Beattie.


We typically get snow by the end of November and it stays like that
until April. This year has been weird. Super cold mid November but
cycling up between 2C or so and back to -20 so it switches between ice
and snow. Rinse and repeat. We end up with not enough snow to ski and
too much ice to ride. It's a blast to ride a bike on snow but not so
much with ice. Better to get cold and stay that way.

The thing that I don't like about riding in the snow is the salt and
crap on the road. And the cars sliding around. And the limited
visibility. Other than that, it's fun g
  #13  
Old January 3rd 19, 05:19 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,945
Default Build it and ... why aren't they coming?

On 1/3/2019 9:10 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, January 3, 2019 at 5:19:15 AM UTC-8, duane wrote:
On 03/01/2019 6:44 a.m., Duane wrote:
James wrote:
On 3/1/19 10:14 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ms/2319972002/




There are some people who claim our MHL didn't (and doesn't) dissuade
people from riding. No doubt there are confounding factors when people
try to find a causal link between MHL and bicycle use.

Fuel prices are well known to be a driving factor in public transport
use, for example.


I doubt you can tell much by country wide stats. It even differs by area
in the same city.
I know here in Montreal the numbers are increasing, especially in the urban
areas. The bike paths are full. Whether or not they’re safe is a
different question.

I live in the suburbs and commute to town. There are fewer people doing
this. For some, it’s the distance. For others it is definitely the lack
of infrastructure. The lack of lockers, showers and safe bike storage on
the job also enter into it.


That said, we had freezing rain yesterday and the temperature dropped to
-16C. This morning it was snowing with some accumulation. I saw 2
riders on fat bikes commuting from my neighborhood and another couple on
my way in.


People freak out when it snows around here. We get some accumulation most years which sticks around for a few days but rarely more than a week. Anyway, when it starts to fall -- often in the late afternoon, the city turns into a parking lot, and the best option is actually a bike. Fresh snow is pretty grippy, and I've ridden home on 23mm tires and stayed upright. And I rode the five or six miles home in one-quarter the time it would have taken to drive. When the snow re-freezes or its sheet ice, it's hard to stay upright even on studded bike tires. Only the DUII cyclists or the super hard-core ride, and they often regret it. I couldn't imagine living in the Mid West or some place where there was snow on the ground for long periods of time and below zero F on a regular basis. I'd move to Phoenix.



One of my brothers moved to Seattle in part to escape the
joys of winter in Wisconsin. The year he moved they had some
snow, couple inches, which stopped the city- car wrecks
everywhere, abandoned vehicles, earth moving machinery
ill-suited to snow; a complete comedy for the enjoyment of
midwesterners.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #14  
Old January 3rd 19, 05:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 226
Default Build it and ... why aren't they coming?

On 03/01/2019 11:19 a.m., AMuzi wrote:
On 1/3/2019 9:10 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, January 3, 2019 at 5:19:15 AM UTC-8, duane wrote:
On 03/01/2019 6:44 a.m., Duane wrote:
James wrote:
On 3/1/19 10:14 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ms/2319972002/





There are some people who claim our MHL didn't (and doesn't) dissuade
people from riding.* No doubt there are confounding factors when
people
try to find a causal link between MHL and bicycle use.

Fuel prices are well known to be a driving factor in public transport
use, for example.


I doubt you can tell much by country wide stats.* It even differs by
area
in the same city.
I know here in Montreal the numbers are increasing, especially in
the urban
areas.* The bike paths are full.* Whether or not they’re safe is a
different question.

I live in the suburbs and commute to town.* There are fewer people
doing
this.* For some, it’s the distance.* For others it is definitely
the lack
of infrastructure.** The lack of lockers, showers and safe bike
storage on
the job also enter into it.


That said, we had freezing rain yesterday and the temperature dropped to
-16C.* This morning it was snowing with some accumulation.* I saw 2
riders on fat bikes commuting from my neighborhood and another couple on
my way in.


People freak out when it snows around here.* We get some accumulation
most years which sticks around for a few days but rarely more than a
week. Anyway, when it starts to fall -- often in the late afternoon,
the city turns into a parking lot, and the best option is actually a
bike.* Fresh snow is pretty grippy, and I've ridden home on 23mm tires
and stayed upright. And I rode the five or six miles home in
one-quarter the time it would have taken to drive.* When the snow
re-freezes or its sheet ice, it's hard to stay upright even on studded
bike tires. Only the DUII cyclists or the super hard-core ride, and
they often regret it. I couldn't imagine living in the Mid West or
some place where there was snow on the ground for long periods of time
and below zero F on a regular basis.* I'd move to Phoenix.



One of my brothers moved to Seattle in part to escape the joys of winter
in Wisconsin. The year he moved they had some snow, couple inches,
which stopped the city- car wrecks everywhere, abandoned vehicles, earth
moving machinery ill-suited to snow; a complete comedy for the enjoyment
of midwesterners.


New Orleans has an inch or so of snow once a few years ago. Shut the
city down. On the other hand, we had some flooding here in Quebec a
couple of years ago that turned into a disaster. The New Orleans folks
would not have had much trouble dealing with that. It depends on what
you're ready for.
  #15  
Old January 3rd 19, 06:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,537
Default Build it and ... why aren't they coming?

On 1/3/2019 6:24 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ms/2319972002/

- Frank Krygowski


How well connected are they? My commute to work has some fairly old and
narrow cycle paths built alongside the by pass, most of the time I don’t
see another cyclist as for most part. It makes sense for me but very few
others.


How well connected are they? Given that we're discussing locations
spanning the country, I'd say some are well connected and some are not,
just as they have been for many years.

To me, the significant point is this: For years, organizations who
promote segregated facilities have trumpeted increases in bike mode
share wherever they've been able to find them; and they've said "See?
The increase was because of the bike lanes!" and/or "We'll see even more
increases if we build more bike lanes..." ... or cycle tracks, or linear
parks, or whatever.

That propaganda ignored many, many places that built new bike lanes and
saw no increases in bike use. That also ignored places like San
Francisco that saw very large increases in bike use without building any
new bike facilities.
http://www.sfweekly.com/news/ironica...ycling-in-s-f/

I think there's much more to it. Bike mode share is governed by many
factors, and segregated facilities are usually only a small contributor.
Gas prices probably make a difference. Weather makes a difference. The
general economy makes a difference. Traffic congestion, if extreme
(think NYC) can make a difference. But I think fashion makes the biggest
difference of all. If it becomes trendy to bike, more people will bike
because it's trendy.

I think bike lanes, etc. can bump that a bit, but not because they make
bicycling safer or more practical. They simply function as a sort of
advertisement for bicycling. When they're new, some people will for the
first time in a long time think "Hmm. Bicycling." Then they may see a
few people riding in a bike lane and think "Hmm. I could do that."
Repeat often enough and they may try it, and numbers go up.

But most will not love it. They'll say "I got all sweaty" or "I got a
flat tire" or just "It's easier in the car." And trendiness is short
lived. When the "new and cool" wears off, people just fall back into
their normal habits.

The people whose jobs depend on new bike facilities - everyone at the
League of American Bicyclists, at People for Bikes (nee Bikes Belong),
at Toole Design Group etc. - will either ignore the drops in bike mode
share, or (more likely) say "See? We need MORE bike lanes!"

But those of us who love to ride will ride. Those who have no
alternative will ride. Those who are sucked in by trends will move on to
the next trend. Maybe ear tattoos?

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #16  
Old January 3rd 19, 06:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,872
Default Build it and ... why aren't they coming?

On Thursday, January 3, 2019 at 12:28:59 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/3/2019 6:24 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ms/2319972002/

- Frank Krygowski


How well connected are they? My commute to work has some fairly old and
narrow cycle paths built alongside the by pass, most of the time I don’t
see another cyclist as for most part. It makes sense for me but very few
others.


How well connected are they? Given that we're discussing locations
spanning the country, I'd say some are well connected and some are not,
just as they have been for many years.

To me, the significant point is this: For years, organizations who
promote segregated facilities have trumpeted increases in bike mode
share wherever they've been able to find them; and they've said "See?
The increase was because of the bike lanes!" and/or "We'll see even more
increases if we build more bike lanes..." ... or cycle tracks, or linear
parks, or whatever.

That propaganda ignored many, many places that built new bike lanes and
saw no increases in bike use. That also ignored places like San
Francisco that saw very large increases in bike use without building any
new bike facilities.
http://www.sfweekly.com/news/ironica...ycling-in-s-f/

I think there's much more to it. Bike mode share is governed by many
factors, and segregated facilities are usually only a small contributor.
Gas prices probably make a difference. Weather makes a difference. The
general economy makes a difference. Traffic congestion, if extreme
(think NYC) can make a difference. But I think fashion makes the biggest
difference of all. If it becomes trendy to bike, more people will bike
because it's trendy.

I think bike lanes, etc. can bump that a bit, but not because they make
bicycling safer or more practical. They simply function as a sort of
advertisement for bicycling. When they're new, some people will for the
first time in a long time think "Hmm. Bicycling." Then they may see a
few people riding in a bike lane and think "Hmm. I could do that."
Repeat often enough and they may try it, and numbers go up.

But most will not love it. They'll say "I got all sweaty" or "I got a
flat tire" or just "It's easier in the car." And trendiness is short
lived. When the "new and cool" wears off, people just fall back into
their normal habits.

The people whose jobs depend on new bike facilities - everyone at the
League of American Bicyclists, at People for Bikes (nee Bikes Belong),
at Toole Design Group etc. - will either ignore the drops in bike mode
share, or (more likely) say "See? We need MORE bike lanes!"

But those of us who love to ride will ride. Those who have no
alternative will ride. Those who are sucked in by trends will move on to
the next trend. Maybe ear tattoos?

--
- Frank Krygowski


One of the small cities that I often bicycle through on my long rides is talking about putting a bicycle lane in on one of its main streets. The problem is that that street can NOT be widened which means that the bicycle lane is going to be right in t he door zone - again. Again, because that's where most of the bicycle lanes in that city are.

Cheers
  #17  
Old January 3rd 19, 07:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 637
Default Build it and ... why aren't they coming?

On Thursday, January 3, 2019 at 3:24:58 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ms/2319972002/

- Frank Krygowski


How well connected are they? My commute to work has some fairly old and
narrow cycle paths built alongside the by pass, most of the time I don’t
see another cyclist as for most part. It makes sense for me but very few
others.

Yet closer to home routes that are much better connected are unsurprisingly
much busier.

Roger Merriman


Around here the bicycle paths are clogged with people that are learners and also with pedestrians with dogs or strollers or both. I can get anywhere faster and safer on city streets with bike lanes.
  #18  
Old January 3rd 19, 07:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 637
Default Build it and ... why aren't they coming?

On Thursday, January 3, 2019 at 9:56:02 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, January 3, 2019 at 12:28:59 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/3/2019 6:24 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ms/2319972002/

- Frank Krygowski


How well connected are they? My commute to work has some fairly old and
narrow cycle paths built alongside the by pass, most of the time I don’t
see another cyclist as for most part. It makes sense for me but very few
others.


How well connected are they? Given that we're discussing locations
spanning the country, I'd say some are well connected and some are not,
just as they have been for many years.

To me, the significant point is this: For years, organizations who
promote segregated facilities have trumpeted increases in bike mode
share wherever they've been able to find them; and they've said "See?
The increase was because of the bike lanes!" and/or "We'll see even more
increases if we build more bike lanes..." ... or cycle tracks, or linear
parks, or whatever.

That propaganda ignored many, many places that built new bike lanes and
saw no increases in bike use. That also ignored places like San
Francisco that saw very large increases in bike use without building any
new bike facilities.
http://www.sfweekly.com/news/ironica...ycling-in-s-f/

I think there's much more to it. Bike mode share is governed by many
factors, and segregated facilities are usually only a small contributor..
Gas prices probably make a difference. Weather makes a difference. The
general economy makes a difference. Traffic congestion, if extreme
(think NYC) can make a difference. But I think fashion makes the biggest
difference of all. If it becomes trendy to bike, more people will bike
because it's trendy.

I think bike lanes, etc. can bump that a bit, but not because they make
bicycling safer or more practical. They simply function as a sort of
advertisement for bicycling. When they're new, some people will for the
first time in a long time think "Hmm. Bicycling." Then they may see a
few people riding in a bike lane and think "Hmm. I could do that."
Repeat often enough and they may try it, and numbers go up.

But most will not love it. They'll say "I got all sweaty" or "I got a
flat tire" or just "It's easier in the car." And trendiness is short
lived. When the "new and cool" wears off, people just fall back into
their normal habits.

The people whose jobs depend on new bike facilities - everyone at the
League of American Bicyclists, at People for Bikes (nee Bikes Belong),
at Toole Design Group etc. - will either ignore the drops in bike mode
share, or (more likely) say "See? We need MORE bike lanes!"

But those of us who love to ride will ride. Those who have no
alternative will ride. Those who are sucked in by trends will move on to
the next trend. Maybe ear tattoos?

--
- Frank Krygowski


One of the small cities that I often bicycle through on my long rides is talking about putting a bicycle lane in on one of its main streets. The problem is that that street can NOT be widened which means that the bicycle lane is going to be right in t he door zone - again. Again, because that's where most of the bicycle lanes in that city are.

Cheers


We still have three main bridges in the area that don't have bike lanes on them. I think that when they do get these facilities bicycling will really take off because the traffic is so unbelievably heavy that you can get many places faster on a bicycle.

In normal traffic I could get to Tesla faster on a bike.
  #19  
Old January 3rd 19, 08:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,383
Default Build it and ... why aren't they coming?

On Thursday, January 3, 2019 at 9:10:57 AM UTC-6, jbeattie wrote:

I couldn't imagine living in the Mid West or some place where there was snow on the ground for long periods of time and below zero F on a regular basis. I'd move to Phoenix.

-- Jay Beattie.


Due to Global Warming, the Midwest has not had a real winter in more than a decade. In Des Moines today, right in the middle of the Midwest, its 36 degrees and Zero snow. Going to be in the 40s or 50s highs for the next week. In early January??? It does snow two or three times each winter. An inch or two that sticks around for less than a week. But the roads are cleared in a few hours and easily rideable with studded tires. You only need studs for a few days of the year. Rest of the time rubber works perfectly. If it wasn't dark for 16 hours a day, you would never even know it was winter in the Midwest.
  #20  
Old January 3rd 19, 09:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 637
Default Build it and ... why aren't they coming?

On Thursday, January 3, 2019 at 11:09:27 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, January 3, 2019 at 9:10:57 AM UTC-6, jbeattie wrote:

I couldn't imagine living in the Mid West or some place where there was snow on the ground for long periods of time and below zero F on a regular basis. I'd move to Phoenix.

-- Jay Beattie.


Due to Global Warming, the Midwest has not had a real winter in more than a decade. In Des Moines today, right in the middle of the Midwest, its 36 degrees and Zero snow. Going to be in the 40s or 50s highs for the next week. In early January??? It does snow two or three times each winter. An inch or two that sticks around for less than a week. But the roads are cleared in a few hours and easily rideable with studded tires. You only need studs for a few days of the year. Rest of the time rubber works perfectly.. If it wasn't dark for 16 hours a day, you would never even know it was winter in the Midwest.


Russel - Climate change is somewhat real but it has nothing to do with man. The Little Ice Age at its worst occurred from about 1700 to 1850. The Earth is a very large place and it is returning to NORMAL temperatures though you can hardly call cyclic weather variations normal.

To give you an example of what lengths the True Believers will go to look at this chart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global...re_Anomaly.svg

This isn't misleading - it is entirely false. If you look at it you will see that the majority of "warming" was between 1978 and present.

Well that just happens to be when we had launched our weather satellite system. Using the Stefan-Boltzmann law you can actually measure the Mean Global Temperature directly and the head of the weather satellite program though now retired still maintains it:
http://www.drroyspencer.com/wp-conte...er_2018_v6.jpg

The baseline of that chart is 0 degrees change and as you can see the only thing that is occurring supposedly during massive global warming is nothing more than the perfectly normal chaotic weather "stabilization".

Remember that climate is more on a centuries long basis so if you use, instead of a 13 month rolling average, a 40 year rolling average, our climate has gotten colder and not warmer. All we're looking at is the retreat of lower latitude glaciers back to the original positions before the LIA.

All of the spots that had been investigated have shown that these places still have not retracted all the way to their positions prior to the Little Ice Age.

Furthermo climate science can hardly be called a science since it requires every science known to man from chemistry to astrophysics. There are no degrees awarded for it and hardly any classes.

Under the control of the Environmentalists even NASA has corrupted their own data. They did this once in 1998 and again in 2008.

So while it is getting warmer that is what it is supposed to do. And as far as science can tell, there isn't anything but good coming from it.
 




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