|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Tire Making, episode four
On 12/30/2009 11:44 AM, Jobst Brandt wrote:
...... That carbon black in tires aids in wear resistance and wet traction is well known and the reason why you don't see high performance auto tires in any other color than black. White knobby tires on children's bicycles don't wear long or corner well anywhere, but they are a standard of fashion for the little tykes. ...... No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far. The introduction of inert fillers was to stiffen the rubber and improve its wear characteristics; the natural rubber also needed colorants in order to try to help protect it from UV damage from sunlight. Carbon black is one of a very-few fillers that can effectively do both jobs at the same time--but then, iron oxide seemed to be another. Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does; why else would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads, and not carbon black instead? Salmon Kool-Stops have a pretty good reputation far and wide, yet we see no red-colored modern performance car tires. ?:| ? ~ |
Ads |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Tire Making, episode four
On 15 Jan, 04:54, DougC wrote:
On 12/30/2009 11:44 AM, Jobst Brandt wrote: ...... That carbon black in tires aids in wear resistance and wet traction is well known and the reason why you don't see high performance auto tires in any other color than black. *White knobby tires on children's bicycles don't wear long or corner well anywhere, but they are a standard of fashion for the little tykes. ...... No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far. Religious tenet introduced to 'explain' why patterned tread tyres grip better in wet corners with smooth surfaces. Fillers had to be used because raw latex was and is expensive, fillers also not only reduce cost but stabilise the rubber product against stability problems due to temperature fluctuations. With heat, the latex will crumb and not provide the dry traction required, or economical wear rate. The introduction of inert fillers was to stiffen the rubber and improve its wear characteristics; the natural rubber also needed colorants in order to try to help protect it from UV damage from sunlight. Carbon black is one of a very-few fillers that can effectively do both jobs at the same time--but then, iron oxide seemed to be another. as does zinc oxide. Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does; why else would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads, and not carbon black instead? Because they want the blocks to crumb easily so as to provide steady revenue from replacements. Salmon Kool-Stops have a pretty good reputation far and wide, yet we see no red-colored modern performance car tires. ?:| ? Who wants to buy a car with four corners of rust? |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Tire Making, episode four
On Jan 14, 9:54*pm, DougC wrote:
On 12/30/2009 11:44 AM, Jobst Brandt wrote: ...... That carbon black in tires aids in wear resistance and wet traction is well known and the reason why you don't see high performance auto tires in any other color than black. *White knobby tires on children's bicycles don't wear long or corner well anywhere, but they are a standard of fashion for the little tykes. ...... No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far. Dear Doug, The combination of carbon black and natural rubber was known to have poorer wet grip than more modern compounds at least as far back as 1985: http://tinyurl.com/ydunnws Cheers, Carl Fogel |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Tire Making, episode four
thirty-six wrote:
DougC wrote: No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far. Religious tenet introduced to 'explain' why patterned tread tyres grip better in wet corners with smooth surfaces. *Fillers had to be used because raw latex was and is expensive, drugs fillers also not only reduce cost but stabilise the rubber product against stability problems due to temperature fluctuations. *With heat, the latex will crumb and not provide the dry traction required, or economical wear rate. Huh? If plain latex had any advantage whatsoever over filled rubber, track racers or time trialists would use plain latex tires. But they don't. Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does; why else would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads, and not carbon black instead? Because they want the blocks to crumb easily so as to provide steady revenue from replacements. Have you used red Kool Stop or Scott Mathauser pads? Because in my observation, they last longer in both miles and years than black pads. Chalo |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Tire Making, episode four
On 15 Jan, 07:01, "
wrote: On Jan 14, 9:54*pm, DougC wrote: On 12/30/2009 11:44 AM, Jobst Brandt wrote: ...... That carbon black in tires aids in wear resistance and wet traction is well known and the reason why you don't see high performance auto tires in any other color than black. *White knobby tires on children's bicycles don't wear long or corner well anywhere, but they are a standard of fashion for the little tykes. ...... No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far. Dear Doug, The combination of carbon black and natural rubber was known to have poorer wet grip than more modern compounds at least as far back as 1985: *http://tinyurl.com/ydunnws and those compounds which are successful in improving wet grip also result in greater rolling resistance, so the tread has to be made thinner to compensate. |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Tire Making, episode four
On 15 Jan, 15:58, Jobst Brandt wrote:
Doug Cimper wrote: ... *That carbon black in tires aids in wear resistance and wet traction is well known and the reason why you don't see high performance auto tires in any other color than black. *White knobby tires on children's bicycles don't wear long or corner well anywhere, but they are a standard of fashion for the little tykes. ... No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet traction? *I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far. The details of it escape me now but I recall a few years ago when Specialized supplied the US 7-11 Racing team in Europe with "Umma Gumma" non black tires with which they had so many crashes in the wet that they switched back to their previous black tires. *The issue was discussed at length in the news that we read in wreck.bike. *I found it interesting and assumed the issue was adequately explained. You must have noticed that no high performance tire is without carbon black, for motor vehicles or bicycles although colored tires are seen on bicycles where hard cornering in the rain is not a standard procedure. *That is why the advertising pictu *http://tinyurl.com/p3f2y and one in the rain at Emerald Bay Lake Tahoe were made. The introduction of inert fillers was to stiffen the rubber and improve its wear characteristics; the natural rubber also needed colorants in order to try to help protect it from UV damage from sunlight. *Carbon black is one of a very-few fillers that can effectively do both jobs at the same time--but then, iron oxide seemed to be another. Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does; why else would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads, and not carbon black instead? Salmon Kool-Stops have a pretty good reputation far and wide, yet we see no red-colored modern performance car tires. ?:| I think this explanation needs some reference report as well, it conflicting with the information I have read in the past on this issue that included an article about how carbon black became introduced to tire making in the first place. *I was satisfied the issue had been discussed adequately at the time. Jobst Brandt you forgot to mention: Aluminum nipples Drag of aero wheels Avocet dirt tires Bias ply Blowouts Flat tires Glass punctures Inflation constriction force Inner tube evacuation Inner tube patching Inner tube ridges Inner tube stem fail Inner tubes Kevlar Machine-built wheels Nipple failure Overly swaged spokes Paired spokes Presta valves Pretzeled rims Rim compatibility Rim bending Rim cracking Rim heat Rim noise Rim tape / rim strips Rim wear Rims Rolling resistance Rotating mass Slicks Spinergy Spoke count Spoke lube Spoke reuse Spoke tightening Spoke tone when plucked Spoke twist Spokes Stress relieving wheels Tensiometers Tire aging Tire boots Tire braid angle Tire color Tire cords Tire directional tread Tire sealants Tire makers Tire pressure Tire recommendation Tire roll-off Tire talc Tire wear Track glue Truing Truing stands Tubular making Tubulars Tying-and-soldering Wet brakes Wheel balancing Wheel building Wheel drag Wheel longevity Wheel side force Wheel size Wheel stresses or dark glasses. what about black ties? |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Tire Making, episode four
Chalo wrote:
thirty-six wrote: DougC wrote: No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far. Religious tenet introduced to 'explain' why patterned tread tyres grip better in wet corners with smooth surfaces. Fillers had to be used because raw latex was and is expensive, drugs fillers also not only reduce cost but stabilise the rubber product against stability problems due to temperature fluctuations. With heat, the latex will crumb and not provide the dry traction required, or economical wear rate. Huh? If plain latex had any advantage whatsoever over filled rubber, track racers or time trialists would use plain latex tires. But they don't. Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does; why else would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads, and not carbon black instead? Because they want the blocks to crumb easily so as to provide steady revenue from replacements. Have you used red Kool Stop or Scott Mathauser pads? Because in my observation, they last longer in both miles and years than black pads. Chalo I do not have any special knowledge but Clement classic #1 and #2 pista tubs were offered in white latex tread on open silk casings. Sold and performed well when they were available to us. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Tire Making, episode four
On 15 Jan, 18:10, AMuzi wrote:
Chalo wrote: thirty-six wrote: DougC wrote: No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far. Religious tenet introduced to 'explain' why patterned tread tyres grip better in wet corners with smooth surfaces. *Fillers had to be used because raw latex was and is expensive, drugs fillers also not only reduce cost but stabilise the rubber product against stability problems due to temperature fluctuations. *With heat, the latex will crumb and not provide the dry traction required, or economical wear rate. Huh? *If plain latex had any advantage whatsoever over filled rubber, track racers or time trialists would use plain latex tires. *But they don't. Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does; why else would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads, and not carbon black instead? Because they want the blocks to crumb easily so as to provide steady revenue from replacements. Have you used red Kool Stop or Scott Mathauser pads? *Because in my observation, they last longer in both miles and years than black pads. Chalo I do not have any special knowledge but Clement classic #1 and #2 pista tubs were offered in white latex tread on open silk casings. Sold and performed well when they were available to us. White strips? Latex is generally clear or nearly so in thin sections. |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Tire Making, episode four
Jobst Brandt wrote:
Andrew Muzi wrote: No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet traction? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far. Religious tenet introduced to 'explain' why patterned tread tyres grip better in wet corners with smooth surfaces. Fillers had to be used because raw latex was and is expensive, drugs fillers also not only reduce cost but stabilize the rubber product against stability problems due to temperature fluctuations. With heat, the latex will crumb and not provide the dry traction required, or economical wear rate. Huh? If plain latex had any advantage whatsoever over filled rubber, track racers or time trialists would use plain latex tires. But they don't. Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does; why else would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads, and not carbon black instead? Because they want the blocks to crumb easily so as to provide steady revenue from replacements. Have you used red Kool Stop or Scott Mathauser pads? Because in my observation, they last longer in both miles and years than black pads. I do not have any special knowledge but Clement classic #1 and #2 "pista" tubs were offered in white latex tread on open silk casings. Sold and performed well when they were available to us. Track tires of that type were made for minimum RR rather than cornering. You may have noticed that tracks are banked so that cornering is not one of the skills required, wet or dry. The curve banking requiring a minimum speed to keep the pedal from grounding, keeping the lean angle within the ability of a latex tread. Those latex tread track tires were miserable on roads because they wore out in a hurry and didn't corner on wet roads worth considering. Jobst Brandt Much agreed. I seem to be short of clarity this week, I was responding to Chalo's comment: "... If plain latex had any advantage whatsoever over filled rubber, track racers or time trialists would use plain latex tires. But they don't." Well, they 'did'. Now they 'cannot'. So 'they don't' lacks much meaning. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Tire Making, episode four
On 15 Jan, 19:46, Jobst Brandt wrote:
Andrew Muzi wrote: No offense, but where does it say that carbon black aids in wet traction? *I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere so far. Religious tenet introduced to 'explain' why patterned tread tyres grip better in wet corners with smooth surfaces. *Fillers had to be used because raw latex was and is expensive, drugs fillers also not only reduce cost but stabilize the rubber product against stability problems due to temperature fluctuations. *With heat, the latex will crumb and not provide the dry traction required, or economical wear rate. Huh? *If plain latex had any advantage whatsoever over filled rubber, track racers or time trialists would use plain latex tires. But they don't. Iron oxide seems to boost traction more than carbon black does; why else would Kool Stop be using iron oxide in their brake pads, and not carbon black instead? Because they want the blocks to crumb easily so as to provide steady revenue from replacements. Have you used red Kool Stop or Scott Mathauser pads? *Because in my observation, they last longer in both miles and years than black pads. I do not have any special knowledge but Clement classic #1 and #2 "pista" tubs were offered in white latex tread on open silk casings. Sold and performed well when they were available to us. Track tires of that type were made for minimum RR rather than cornering. * Which will be their ultra thin tread, latex would suit so as to generate some heat in such a thin tread. You may have noticed that tracks are banked so that cornering is not one of the skills required, wet or dry. *The curve banking requiring a minimum speed to keep the pedal from grounding, keeping the lean angle within the ability of a latex tread. *Those latex tread track tires were miserable on roads because they wore out in a hurry and didn't corner on wet roads worth considering. That will be because of their narrow section and extreme pressure to prevent road bumping shortens the contact patch so as to reduce available cornering force. This occurs with all narrow section tyres taken to extreme pressure. With a more normal section width the tyre contact patch can be twice as long as a 3/4" tyre on the same wheel rim. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Tire making, episode five | DougC | Techniques | 2 | January 2nd 10 12:19 AM |
Tire making v3 : for the love of aramids and all that is un-holey | DougC | Techniques | 2 | December 17th 09 12:45 AM |
Tire-making, continued.... | DougC | Techniques | 18 | November 23rd 09 12:24 AM |
Rear Tire constant flats making me mad! | Jose Capco | Techniques | 9 | August 26th 07 12:53 PM |
Next Episode | KlownLife | Unicycling | 45 | January 5th 05 04:14 PM |