Road Discs

On 9/26/2017 3:24 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 8:10:04 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/26/2017 8:11 AM, wrote:


Of course Jay knows what he is talking about. The people saying that they can skid their wheels with whatever brakes they use don't get it. I don't want my wheels to skid, I want to slow down in a controlled and predictable manner in all circumstances. In dry conditions, flat terrain and no CF rims any brake system will do.

Have you had problems in dry conditions in hilly terrain? So far I haven't.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Huh, where did I said that?

I was asking a question, Lou.

Fyi, all my road bikes have rimbrakes. Always had. Only my FS mountainbike and my cross bike have hydraulic disk brakes. So I know the advantages and disadvantages of both. Do you, by own experience or only from heresay?

As I've explained, I don't own a bike with disc brakes, but I've ridden
several. Admittedly, not on long rides (maximum just half an hour) but
those rides gave me my own experience. I've also talked to disc brake
users who have had problems, like the bike tourist we hosted who once
lost his braking rather suddenly on a hilly tour when his pads wore away
without warning. And I've ridden at least 30 miles with a friend whose
rear disc turned out to be responsible for the hard-to-diagnose noises
he got when pushing hard.

I agree with you that I don't want my wheels to skid. But my experience
is that in dry conditions even in hilly terrain, any rim brake of
reasonable quality will do.

I'd get discs for my commuter if I commuted as Jay does. But I've never
been quite as dedicated as Jay; I'd drive the car if it was raining when
it was time to head to work, or if the temperature was below freezing.

And now I'm retired. I can choose my riding weather.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 12:24:41 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 8:10:04 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/26/2017 8:11 AM, wrote:


Of course Jay knows what he is talking about. The people saying that they can skid their wheels with whatever brakes they use don't get it. I don't want my wheels to skid, I want to slow down in a controlled and predictable manner in all circumstances. In dry conditions, flat terrain and no CF rims any brake system will do.

Have you had problems in dry conditions in hilly terrain? So far I haven't.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Huh, where did I said that? Fyi, all my road bikes have rimbrakes. Always had. Only my FS mountainbike and my cross bike have hydraulic disk brakes.. So I know the advantages and disadvantages of both. Do you, by own experience or only from heresay?

Lou, that's my suspicion. I know what hydraulic disks are like on full suspension bikes and that's fine but they are way more than necessary on cross bikes. Right now I have two cross bikes - a Ridley with TRP 9.0 V-brakes and my Redline with hydraulic disks. I do not like the disks on the light bikes and I haven't come across any conditions that the disk would have any advantages including coming down hills through streams pouring across the trail. And the V-brake is more predictable. As I said before, on hard descents you have to hold on and that means that you can easily apply a disk too hard.

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 10:34:05 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/26/2017 3:24 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 8:10:04 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/26/2017 8:11 AM, wrote:


Of course Jay knows what he is talking about. The people saying that they can skid their wheels with whatever brakes they use don't get it. I don't want my wheels to skid, I want to slow down in a controlled and predictable manner in all circumstances. In dry conditions, flat terrain and no CF rims any brake system will do.

Have you had problems in dry conditions in hilly terrain? So far I haven't.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Huh, where did I said that?

I was asking a question, Lou.

OK, strange question but my answer is no I haven’t.

Fyi, all my road bikes have rimbrakes. Always had. Only my FS mountainbike and my cross bike have hydraulic disk brakes. So I know the advantages and disadvantages of both. Do you, by own experience or only from heresay?

As I've explained, I don't own a bike with disc brakes, but I've ridden
several. Admittedly, not on long rides (maximum just half an hour) but
those rides gave me my own experience. I've also talked to disc brake
users who have had problems, like the bike tourist we hosted who once
lost his braking rather suddenly on a hilly tour when his pads wore away
without warning. And I've ridden at least 30 miles with a friend whose
rear disc turned out to be responsible for the hard-to-diagnose noises
he got when pushing hard.

That is not experience. You have to use them in wet condintions on a curvy and steep descents, then you experience the benifits.

I agree with you that I don't want my wheels to skid. But my experience
is that in dry conditions even in hilly terrain, any rim brake of
reasonable quality will do.

I'd get discs for my commuter if I commuted as Jay does. But I've never
been quite as dedicated as Jay; I'd drive the car if it was raining when
it was time to head to work, or if the temperature was below freezing.

And now I'm retired. I can choose my riding weather.

In that case you don’t need disk brakes.

Lou

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 10:34:59 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 12:24:41 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 8:10:04 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/26/2017 8:11 AM, wrote:


Of course Jay knows what he is talking about. The people saying that they can skid their wheels with whatever brakes they use don't get it. I don't want my wheels to skid, I want to slow down in a controlled and predictable manner in all circumstances. In dry conditions, flat terrain and no CF rims any brake system will do.

Have you had problems in dry conditions in hilly terrain? So far I haven't.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Huh, where did I said that? Fyi, all my road bikes have rimbrakes. Always had. Only my FS mountainbike and my cross bike have hydraulic disk brakes. So I know the advantages and disadvantages of both. Do you, by own experience or only from heresay?

Lou, that's my suspicion. I know what hydraulic disks are like on full suspension bikes and that's fine but they are way more than necessary on cross bikes. Right now I have two cross bikes - a Ridley with TRP 9.0 V-brakes and my Redline with hydraulic disks. I do not like the disks on the light bikes and I haven't come across any conditions that the disk would have any advantages including coming down hills through streams pouring across the trail. And the V-brake is more predictable. As I said before, on hard descents you have to hold on and that means that you can easily apply a disk too hard.

We disagree on that Tom. In the conditon I ride my crossbike, I don’t want rim brakes. This doesn’t mean that I need disk brakes but since I can choose I choose hydraulic disbrakes. Mechanical diskbrakes are a joke btw.

Lou

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 07:18:28 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 2:56:47 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 08:48:53 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 11:35:45 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 7:55:26 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped
I have tried some, which is why I'm concerned! Granted, I haven't done long
rides on any. My tests were on bikes belonging to friends, one bike I was
fixing for a bike tourist we were hosting, bikes I tested briefly while
helping a good friend shop for a new bike, and a mountain bike owned by an
acquaintance who let me ride it for maybe half an hour in our local forest
preserve.

The latter was the most upscale bike of the lot. When he traded bikes with me,
he cautioned me "Don't forget, you never need more than one finger on the
brakes." He was right, of course. And I'd be unlikely to forget on that
bike because it had undersized brake levers, plus it was way different than any
of my bikes. But on a road bike with normal sized levers, I'd worry about
forgetting.

I once saw a woman go over the bars because she wasn't familiar with the
reduced lever force of Shimano dual pivots, back when those were new technology.

It seems to me that stopping a bike hard should require a bit of a hard squeeze
on the levers. At least, until bicycles come with something vaguely akin to the
anti-lock brakes on cars. (Anti-pitchover brakes?)

I don't think front discs are a problem for most normal people coming
from a dual pivot or other efficient brake. Rear hydraulic discs do
require some adjustment because they are far more powerful than any
cable operated brake, being that there aren't the usual losses from
cable or housing. I was skidding my rear on the Roubaix, but that
hasn't been an issue on the Norco for some reason. Maybe I'm
acclimated -- or maybe the Roubaix had too much system pressure. The
rear cable disc is no better than a rim brake in dry weather. A rear
dual pivot is actually stronger, but I hope to remedy that problem with
a new rear brake. The first generation Avid BB7s (mine are 13 years
old) had crappy return springs that can't manage all the cable drag,
and the caliper will rub after braking if the pads are set close to the disc.

-- Jay Beattie.

I can easily apply my front Dura Ace AX brake to a force where the rear
wheel lifts a lot and I have to release the front brake lever to avoid going over the bar.

On my MTB with the roller cam rear brake under the chainstays, I can
easily lock up the rear wheel in ant weather = dry or wet.

Cheers

Given that the braking force of a wheeled vehicle is a factor of the
coefficient of friction between the tires and the road I am at a bit
of a loss as to why a disk brake is so much superior to a rim brake as
with vee brakes I can easily skid either the front wheel (very
carefully :-) or the rear wheel, or both wheels together on ordinary
black asphalt pavement, either dry or wet, using two fingers on the
brake lever.

Will disk brakes somehow magically improve this.
--
Cheers,

John B.



I don’t think the question is stopping on wet pavement. I think the
question is stopping with wet rims and pads. I don’t use disc brakes and
generally don’t need them but I’ve recently been caught in a heavy downpour
where my brakes didn’t stop well.

Jay commutes in a hilly, rainy area and says disc brakes work when wet. I
expect he knows what he’s talking about.

I certainly know what I like. A good dual pivot will stop you in the rain, although you may get a little free-fall before braking starts. My issue was the brake-lathe effect in wet weather. One of my work cohorts commutes year round, mostly flat and farther than I do on a daily basis. He was replacing his front rim every year to two years. He finally got tired of paying for rim swaps and bought an on-sale Fuji with cable discs.

"Because I like 'em" is a perfectly valid argument which I agree with
whole heartedly and I was posting largely to refute that "I got a disc
and it is better" argument, which certainly didn't appear to be your
contention.

"Braking is also more rapid and positive with a well adjusted disc."

I would really like to see the dynamics of that statement explained as
during the 20 years or so that I worked on aircraft it was always
explained to us that maximum braking force is generated just before
the tire starts to skid which I have always assumed applied to any
rubber tired wheel and thus any brake that could actual stop the wheel
from turning must be capable of generating maximum braking force.


A poorly adjusted cable disc is worse than a dual pivot, which is an argument for hydraulic discs on wet weather bikes. I really like the way the hydraulic discs modulate on the Norco. The rear brake was too powerful on the stolen Roubaix, and I had to get used to that -- although it did seem to relax over time, maybe due to pad wear-in. Anyway, there are pros and cons, but I wouldn't build a year-round wet weather commuter or CX/gravel bike with rim brakes. On a road race bike, I would (and did) go with rim brakes, although hydraulic discs are still a reasonable choice and a good choice on a bike with CF rims that will be raced in spring classics. My nice bike will only get wet because I didn't plan well -- and poor braking will be my penance.

-- Jay Beattie.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 5:34:08 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 07:18:28 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 2:56:47 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 08:48:53 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 11:35:45 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 7:55:26 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped
I have tried some, which is why I'm concerned! Granted, I haven't done long
rides on any. My tests were on bikes belonging to friends, one bike I was
fixing for a bike tourist we were hosting, bikes I tested briefly while
helping a good friend shop for a new bike, and a mountain bike owned by an
acquaintance who let me ride it for maybe half an hour in our local forest
preserve.

The latter was the most upscale bike of the lot. When he traded bikes with me,
he cautioned me "Don't forget, you never need more than one finger on the
brakes." He was right, of course. And I'd be unlikely to forget on that
bike because it had undersized brake levers, plus it was way different than any
of my bikes. But on a road bike with normal sized levers, I'd worry about
forgetting.

I once saw a woman go over the bars because she wasn't familiar with the
reduced lever force of Shimano dual pivots, back when those were new technology.

It seems to me that stopping a bike hard should require a bit of a hard squeeze
on the levers. At least, until bicycles come with something vaguely akin to the
anti-lock brakes on cars. (Anti-pitchover brakes?)

I don't think front discs are a problem for most normal people coming
from a dual pivot or other efficient brake. Rear hydraulic discs do
require some adjustment because they are far more powerful than any
cable operated brake, being that there aren't the usual losses from
cable or housing. I was skidding my rear on the Roubaix, but that
hasn't been an issue on the Norco for some reason. Maybe I'm
acclimated -- or maybe the Roubaix had too much system pressure. The
rear cable disc is no better than a rim brake in dry weather. A rear
dual pivot is actually stronger, but I hope to remedy that problem with
a new rear brake. The first generation Avid BB7s (mine are 13 years
old) had crappy return springs that can't manage all the cable drag,
and the caliper will rub after braking if the pads are set close to the disc.

-- Jay Beattie.

I can easily apply my front Dura Ace AX brake to a force where the rear
wheel lifts a lot and I have to release the front brake lever to avoid going over the bar.

On my MTB with the roller cam rear brake under the chainstays, I can
easily lock up the rear wheel in ant weather = dry or wet.

Cheers

Given that the braking force of a wheeled vehicle is a factor of the
coefficient of friction between the tires and the road I am at a bit
of a loss as to why a disk brake is so much superior to a rim brake as
with vee brakes I can easily skid either the front wheel (very
carefully :-) or the rear wheel, or both wheels together on ordinary
black asphalt pavement, either dry or wet, using two fingers on the
brake lever.

Will disk brakes somehow magically improve this.
--
Cheers,

John B.



I don’t think the question is stopping on wet pavement. I think the
question is stopping with wet rims and pads. I don’t use disc brakes and
generally don’t need them but I’ve recently been caught in a heavy downpour
where my brakes didn’t stop well.

Jay commutes in a hilly, rainy area and says disc brakes work when wet.. I
expect he knows what he’s talking about.

I certainly know what I like. A good dual pivot will stop you in the rain, although you may get a little free-fall before braking starts. My issue was the brake-lathe effect in wet weather. One of my work cohorts commutes year round, mostly flat and farther than I do on a daily basis. He was replacing his front rim every year to two years. He finally got tired of paying for rim swaps and bought an on-sale Fuji with cable discs.

"Because I like 'em" is a perfectly valid argument which I agree with
whole heartedly and I was posting largely to refute that "I got a disc
and it is better" argument, which certainly didn't appear to be your
contention.

"Braking is also more rapid and positive with a well adjusted disc."

I would really like to see the dynamics of that statement explained as
during the 20 years or so that I worked on aircraft it was always
explained to us that maximum braking force is generated just before
the tire starts to skid which I have always assumed applied to any
rubber tired wheel and thus any brake that could actual stop the wheel
from turning must be capable of generating maximum braking force.

Oh, stop putting up straw men and then bickering with what nobody said.
It is perfectly clear that those with whom you are pretending to argue are in fact discussing either a)the behavior of various brakes up to the point of locking the wheel, or b)the situation wherein [wet] conditions are preventing the brakes from being able to lock the wheel at all.

Also - a vehicle with no brakes still has tires with a coefficient of traction, but no braking ability at all, so your definition of braking ability is not correct.

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 14:09:45 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 9/26/2017 4:38 AM, James wrote:
On 26/09/17 13:06, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/25/2017 6:00 PM, jbeattie wrote:
*People are willing to accept the weight and aerodynamic penalty with
discs, apparently on the belief that ordinary rim brakes are
inadequate or because they want to use CF wheels. Who knows.

Many people are willing to accept anything that's in fashion in their
own little world. Fashion is amazingly powerful, and doesn't need to
make any particular sense.

At least we can claim that disc brakes are marginally more useful than
tattoos.


If a person wants to use wheels with CFRP rims, a bike with disc brakes
makes sense.

CFRP rims with rim brakes usually work ok in dry conditions provided the
correct brake blocks are used.* Some CFRP rims can be damaged if the
wrong pads are used, and some have been damaged even with the "correct"
pads.

But in wet conditions, the braking performance is generally very much
worse.

Disc brakes solve those problems, and allow rim manufacturers to save
more grams because there's no need for a braking surface.

I'm not saying there are never benefits to disc brakes, and I don't
think anyone else is saying that.

I would never tell Jay he shouldn't use discs; his commuting regimen in
hilly, rainy Portland is perfect for them.

So yes, discs have some advantages. They also have some disadvantages,
and those disadvantages become known only through discussions something
like this one. Advertisers are certainly not going to spend much time
listing the disadvantages.

And the typical consumer isn't going to think about these things at all,
beyond "Oooh, disc brakes. They use them on motorcycles, so that's what
I need! I'll never buy a bike without them things!"

We're supposed to be better than that. We should consider both
advantages and disadvantages. It happens to be my judgment that for
almost all road cyclists, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.
Almost everyone would be better off with more normal brakes.

I find the argument somewhat humorous as even today trucks hauling 50
ton, or more, loads are still using drum brakes, not disc brakes, and
when I worked at the copper mine in Irian Jaya, which was a 30 mile
downhill run from the tram site to the main camp, some of the trucks
used water cooled drum brakes, which I had also seen in the mountains
of California where one log might be a full load for a logging truck.

Good Lord, back in the days of coaster brakes kids rode with no brakes
at all, Just stick the toe of your "tennis shoe" between the tire and
the fork which even worked in wet weather.

Now I'm told that nothing but a disc will function in the wet.

"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore."
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 9/26/2017 8:34 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 07:18:28 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie wrote:

"Braking is also more rapid and positive with a well adjusted disc."

I would really like to see the dynamics of that statement explained as
during the 20 years or so that I worked on aircraft it was always
explained to us that maximum braking force is generated just before
the tire starts to skid which I have always assumed applied to any
rubber tired wheel and thus any brake that could actual stop the wheel
from turning must be capable of generating maximum braking force.

I've thought a bit about the descriptions of brake behavior. What you
say about maximum deceleration occurring very near skidding is certainly
correct. But what about statements like Jay's "rapid and positive," or
others' descriptions of "progressive" or "controllable" and the like?

On one hand, I don't think they're necessarily just ad-speak. I think
ideally, you'd want the braking force on the wheel to be perfectly
proportional to the force applied to the levers. There are various
practical effects that could destroy that proportionality.

Cable friction is certainly one such phenomenon, if it's got any
stick-slip component to it. (My antique motorcycle suffered from that
until I replaced its front brake cable.) Pivot friction in both the
lever and the brake's pivots could do the same. Some brakes have return
springs that tend to slide a bit where they contact the brake arm as the
arms move, and that causes a little jerk in the movement. Some brakes
(e.g. the notorious Campy Deltas) had geometry that was inherently
non-linear. And I can see that hydraulic discs inherently remove
several of those possibilities.

And I certainly won't say that a person who rides a lot could never
detect those effects. I know that musicians can detect and be bothered
by incredibly tiny imperfections in an instrument's action.

On the other hand, exactly when does that non-linearity matter? I think
unless a person is frequently diving into corners, trying to brake at
the last second and maintain the maximum possible speed through the
corner, the difference can't possibly be very important.

So: Top level road racers? Yeah, I can see them wanting the very best,
and detecting a positive difference between a hydraulic disc vs. a top
shelf caliper brake. I suppose some may gain a very slight advantage in
a fast, curvy descent with a better brake.

But I doubt it's ever made a difference in who actually won a race. And
except for Jay-style commuters (doing hills during six months of wet
weather) I doubt the differences make a practical difference to many
non-racers.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 22:57:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 9/26/2017 8:34 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 07:18:28 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie wrote:

"Braking is also more rapid and positive with a well adjusted disc."

I would really like to see the dynamics of that statement explained as
during the 20 years or so that I worked on aircraft it was always
explained to us that maximum braking force is generated just before
the tire starts to skid which I have always assumed applied to any
rubber tired wheel and thus any brake that could actual stop the wheel
from turning must be capable of generating maximum braking force.

I've thought a bit about the descriptions of brake behavior. What you
say about maximum deceleration occurring very near skidding is certainly
correct. But what about statements like Jay's "rapid and positive," or
others' descriptions of "progressive" or "controllable" and the like?

On one hand, I don't think they're necessarily just ad-speak. I think
ideally, you'd want the braking force on the wheel to be perfectly
proportional to the force applied to the levers. There are various
practical effects that could destroy that proportionality.

Cable friction is certainly one such phenomenon, if it's got any
stick-slip component to it. (My antique motorcycle suffered from that
until I replaced its front brake cable.) Pivot friction in both the
lever and the brake's pivots could do the same. Some brakes have return
springs that tend to slide a bit where they contact the brake arm as the
arms move, and that causes a little jerk in the movement. Some brakes
(e.g. the notorious Campy Deltas) had geometry that was inherently
non-linear. And I can see that hydraulic discs inherently remove
several of those possibilities.

And I certainly won't say that a person who rides a lot could never
detect those effects. I know that musicians can detect and be bothered
by incredibly tiny imperfections in an instrument's action.

On the other hand, exactly when does that non-linearity matter? I think
unless a person is frequently diving into corners, trying to brake at
the last second and maintain the maximum possible speed through the
corner, the difference can't possibly be very important.


I wonder.

Basically I have three different braking systems on four different
bikes. In Bangkok both bikes have conventional dual pivot brakes and
in Phuket the utility bike has vee brakes and the road bike has center
pull brakes (at the moment).

Switching from one bike to another does, momentarily, result in a
difference in "brake feel", for want of a better description, but
after the first corner I don't notice any difference.

The Bangkok bikes are much the same and ridden on essentially the same
roads but the Phuket bikes are very different as the utility bike's
vee brakes are surprisingly effective, I can skid either or both
wheels on dry asphalt roads, while the center pull brakes are less
powerful. But still, I might notice the difference the first time I
apply the brakes but other than that I don't remember every thinking
"Oh yes, this is the yellow bike the brakes are different", in fact
generally speaking I don't think much about braking at all.

I would comment that I do spend time "tuning" the brakes on all the
bikes to ensure that there is minimal cable drag, the pads are aligned
and then the brakes apply equal pressure to each side of the rim, but
that shouldn't be unusual (I hope) :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 9/26/2017 11:32 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 22:57:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 9/26/2017 8:34 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 07:18:28 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie wrote:

"Braking is also more rapid and positive with a well adjusted disc."

I would really like to see the dynamics of that statement explained as
during the 20 years or so that I worked on aircraft it was always
explained to us that maximum braking force is generated just before
the tire starts to skid which I have always assumed applied to any
rubber tired wheel and thus any brake that could actual stop the wheel
from turning must be capable of generating maximum braking force.

I've thought a bit about the descriptions of brake behavior. What you
say about maximum deceleration occurring very near skidding is certainly
correct. But what about statements like Jay's "rapid and positive," or
others' descriptions of "progressive" or "controllable" and the like?

On one hand, I don't think they're necessarily just ad-speak. I think
ideally, you'd want the braking force on the wheel to be perfectly
proportional to the force applied to the levers. There are various
practical effects that could destroy that proportionality.

Cable friction is certainly one such phenomenon, if it's got any
stick-slip component to it. (My antique motorcycle suffered from that
until I replaced its front brake cable.) Pivot friction in both the
lever and the brake's pivots could do the same. Some brakes have return
springs that tend to slide a bit where they contact the brake arm as the
arms move, and that causes a little jerk in the movement. Some brakes
(e.g. the notorious Campy Deltas) had geometry that was inherently
non-linear. And I can see that hydraulic discs inherently remove
several of those possibilities.

And I certainly won't say that a person who rides a lot could never
detect those effects. I know that musicians can detect and be bothered
by incredibly tiny imperfections in an instrument's action.

On the other hand, exactly when does that non-linearity matter? I think
unless a person is frequently diving into corners, trying to brake at
the last second and maintain the maximum possible speed through the
corner, the difference can't possibly be very important.


I wonder.

Basically I have three different braking systems on four different
bikes. In Bangkok both bikes have conventional dual pivot brakes and
in Phuket the utility bike has vee brakes and the road bike has center
pull brakes (at the moment).

Switching from one bike to another does, momentarily, result in a
difference in "brake feel", for want of a better description, but
after the first corner I don't notice any difference.

The Bangkok bikes are much the same and ridden on essentially the same
roads but the Phuket bikes are very different as the utility bike's
vee brakes are surprisingly effective, I can skid either or both
wheels on dry asphalt roads, while the center pull brakes are less
powerful. But still, I might notice the difference the first time I
apply the brakes but other than that I don't remember every thinking
"Oh yes, this is the yellow bike the brakes are different", in fact
generally speaking I don't think much about braking at all.

I would comment that I do spend time "tuning" the brakes on all the
bikes to ensure that there is minimal cable drag, the pads are aligned
and then the brakes apply equal pressure to each side of the rim, but
that shouldn't be unusual (I hope) :-)

I think this is the main reason I don't think much about the different
brake types I use: I almost never have to brake hard at all.

In fact, it's sort of an objective to use the brakes the least amount
possible. I mean, almost by definition, using the brakes slows you down,
right?


--
- Frank Krygowski