What do you do when everything goes wrong?

Kathy wrote:
Bleve wrote:


It was only Hawthorn so nearly flat. She did however have the 2
accidents one has on a velo.. ie falling off then sliding down. Right
on where the start finish line would be if there were one. A lot of
damage for a low speed fall.

Can I suggest that clipping in and out be done at the carpark
just up behind the velodrone instead? It's flat. Dealing with
a lean (even the slight 2 degrees or so at hwtn) is only going
to make it harder.

and, SPD-SL's and SPD's are (from the PoV of disengaging) identical,
and if anything, you'll need to flick out your heel further
in old SPDs than in newish SPD-SL's. Just back off the tension to
its lowest setting. You'll get it ...


Ummm. No.

The action is identical - flick heel out to ~25 degrees or so, and
pop - out they come. If they're backed way off, they are very
easy to get out of. The amount of force required is trivial
from a leg. That won't be the problem. It sounds like a
confidence/balance
issue more than anything to do with the pedals.

I have not used SL before. They are backed all the way off. And if I
have the pedal in one hand and the shoes in the other i can JUST
disengage em by twisting my wrist. And I aint a weak bunny. Now I know
the leverage of a leg is much more. But I can easily disengage my SPDs
with the same test. And in fact I have backed em off absolutely all the
way since so they are sloppier than when I tried that. Yeah the
movement may be greater but the effort is minimal.

Try the same, with the pedal held by a crankarm in a bike.

Yes the SLs were ajusted right. In fact if I turn em up I cant even
clip em in with the bits in my hands.

The spring is designed to hold against vertical forces - they have
to deal with quite a lot of force in one direction. That you
can't clip into them by hand is not suprising, unless again, they're
hooked up to a bike.

Its possible that there is something wrong with the Sls I guess. I
really dont know. I was going to tru em on my shoes but I dont have the
internal plates for them. Im interested cos I have pulled the shoes out
of the cleats a couple of times and was thinking of trying these myself.
They are PD-R540s All advice gratefully received.

That's the black 105 ones? I have a pair of them 2m from me right
now on my beater. The transition from SPD to SPD-SL I found to
be almost unnoticable when I did it (2 years ago or so now),
except that they're more comfortable and lighter (and easier to clip
in!)

Kathys one of these people who need to know how things work. So I have
been showing her the way it all works. Hopefully it starts to come together

Its distressing to see her hurting her confidence (and self) so badly.
A confident kathy is well a good thing.

Does she have good bike balance? I would imagine that if one is
a bit spooked, that one will tend to ride slowly, and that causes
2 problems with cleats - 1 - you don't have the rolling balance to
keep things stable when you flick your leg out, and 2 - you don't have
much time before the bike becomes unstable (if it isn't already), ie:
you have to rush it. Fear takes over .. and *bang* one is sitting on
the ground!

What I've done in the past with nervous riders is get them riding
reasonably quickly, and ride beside them, and get them to
(20km/h+) click out while not worrying about having to actually stop,
and then click back in - this gets them used to the action without
having
to worry about actually stopping. If it helps, you can rest an
arm on their shoulder when they do it (not necessary, but provides
a mental aid more than anything real) My golden rule with cleats is
"click
out earlier than you think you need to". You can always click back
in again and get going if the lights change!

Claes wrote:

Bike serviced a few months ago, came out with rear wheel out of dish, so
now I have scraped off paint on the chain stay. Trying to get that fixed
today.

Last 3 pair of gloves have lasted less than 3 weeks before a seam has
ripped. Handed last pair in today.

Pedals have been gone for warranty repair/service, comes back after 6
weeks, just as bad as before. Waiting for manager to call me today.

Last ride, new tool, adjusted seat, scratched the seatpost. It ended up
with a puncture not far down beach road, then the rain starts, got home
wet and cold, and the bike covered in sand and muck, WTF is that stuff
that your bike gets smeared in when it rains on beach road?

I have just lost it, everything with cycling at the moment just end up
in tears. Not fun anymore.

I'd suggest you hang yourself, but the rope would probably break.

P
--
Peter McCallum
Mackay Qld AUSTRALIA

In article . com,
"Bleve" wrote:

The action is identical

Are you sure you're not thinking of SPD-Rs, rather than plain old SPDs?

--
Shane Stanley

osc Wrote:
-Osc...This is what has happened this month pretty much. Start of the
year, three abscesses after a sort of nasty kite surfing incident, kept
me off the bike for months. I also have problems with my right calf,
real high up towards the knee, gets very sore when I ride, keeps me off
the bike. -
-Oh, yeah, I forgat to tell you, I have not been allowed to run since I
was 21, I suffer from Perthes Disease, which means that I will probably
have to replace my hip before the age of 40. Every step I take, every
second of the day, I feel that ****ing hip, sometimes the pain is so
bad I limp quite bad, sometimes, very very rarely, I can NOT get out of
bed.-
- -
Sorry, this was not meant to be a sob story but at the
mo, everything is ****ed. Do not get me started about work too.

Claes, sounds as though it was the proverbial straw! It's always
therapeutic to share these things though..sometimes helps to see the
lighter side (if there is one!). I certainly wasn't intending to
minimalise the issues either.

I can relate to the calf issue, I have the same
problem..intermittantly! Lots of calf stretching tennis ball work on
the calf and luck seem to work! If you tend to ride a bit 'pointy toed'
like me, try working on keeping the heel down and/or possibly lowering
seat a mm or 2 (no more). It might help

There's still nothing like the enjoyment of being out on the bike when
everything feels good and that is what makes it all worthwhile. Hope
everything improves as much as it can!

Stewart
Yeah, I am going for a spin tonight, I think, if the bike has been fixed
in the shop. Have no gloves or water bottle, but I'll live. Thanx for the
words.


--
Claes

Shane Stanley wrote:
In article . com,
"Bleve" wrote:

The action is identical

Are you sure you're not thinking of SPD-Rs, rather than plain old SPDs?

yep. Never owned SPD-Rs, only had SPDs then SPD-SLs. The action
(your foot ...) is the same for both - twist out. The release angle
is very similar and is a function of the release faces on the cleat.
They
-look- very different of course, but the actual release
mechanism does the same thing (as most cleat systems do .. except
for speedplay and eggcheaters etc)

I don't notice a difference when I switch between my MTB and the
road bikes, SPD, SPD-SL ... flick the ankle out. I have my SPD-SL's
set a lot tighter than the SPDs of course, so notice I have to
flick harder for the first 2 or 3 exits after getting back on the
roady.

Bleve wrote:
Kathy wrote:

Bleve wrote:

snip

Can I suggest that clipping in and out be done at the carpark
just up behind the velodrone instead? It's flat. Dealing with
a lean (even the slight 2 degrees or so at hwtn) is only going
to make it harder.

That was the theory behind moving onto the grass, in a low gear, so it
would be easier...

snip again


Does she have good bike balance? I would imagine that if one is
a bit spooked, that one will tend to ride slowly, and that causes
2 problems with cleats - 1 - you don't have the rolling balance to
keep things stable when you flick your leg out, and 2 - you don't have
much time before the bike becomes unstable (if it isn't already), ie:
you have to rush it. Fear takes over .. and *bang* one is sitting on
the ground!

Very nervous - and with Dave there watching - more nervous...
What I've done in the past with nervous riders is get them riding
reasonably quickly, and ride beside them, and get them to
(20km/h+) click out while not worrying about having to actually stop,
and then click back in - this gets them used to the action without
having
to worry about actually stopping. If it helps, you can rest an
arm on their shoulder when they do it (not necessary, but provides
a mental aid more than anything real) My golden rule with cleats is
"click
out earlier than you think you need to". You can always click back
in again and get going if the lights change!

I like this idea - will try this when I get up enough confidence to even
think about using the cleats again - which won't be today...
The really stupid thing about it is that I know I can stop the bike and
track stand for a little while on my normal pedals - wouldn't even have
contemplated starting to use the cleats if I hadn't got to that point -
but when it came time to stop AND remove my foot from the cleat AND just
get it all together, it didn't happen - so I hurt myself and Dave's
yelling at me cos I scared him too - and so it was just all bad... And
once that happened, I was afraid it was going to happen again, and so on
and so on!
Oh well... More time practicing on the wind trainer - now that I know
how NOT to practice on the wind trainer - then eventually back out to
the real world...

Claes Wrote:

There's still nothing like the enjoyment of being out on the bike when
everything feels good and that is what makes it all worthwhile. Hope
everything improves as much as it can!


I am always trying to improve my ways when riding, like today went out
and bought a kevlar spoke and spoke tool just in case something happens
along the way. Also bought a chain breaker just in case I break a chain,
I actually have broken a chain and walked 18k home. These items are long
overdue but I have them now.

I bought a new road bike a little over on month ago and was riding in
the rain some 60k from home and got three punctures in a row. The next
day went out and bought two new kevlar belted tyres costing $120, no
more punctures now. I could talk a long time about the mishaps I have
had but I try to improve each time.

Went out on Tuesday for a big big ride and all was well, no problems
apart from that magpie that got me going each way at the end of station
street in Bonbeach/Carrum.


--
Dancier

Kathy wrote:
Bleve wrote:
Kathy wrote:

Bleve wrote:

snip

Can I suggest that clipping in and out be done at the carpark
just up behind the velodrone instead? It's flat. Dealing with
a lean (even the slight 2 degrees or so at hwtn) is only going
to make it harder.

That was the theory behind moving onto the grass, in a low gear, so it
would be easier...

Fatal mistake! You're going too slow on the grass, which means you
have less time to unclip.


Very nervous - and with Dave there watching - more nervous...



Partners are the world's worst teachers, alas. As one who has
tried to teach partners to ride, ski, dive, drive ... too hard!

What I've done in the past with nervous riders is get them riding
reasonably quickly, and ride beside them, and get them to
(20km/h+) click out while not worrying about having to actually stop,
and then click back in - this gets them used to the action without
having
to worry about actually stopping. If it helps, you can rest an
arm on their shoulder when they do it (not necessary, but provides
a mental aid more than anything real) My golden rule with cleats is
"click
out earlier than you think you need to". You can always click back
in again and get going if the lights change!

I like this idea - will try this when I get up enough confidence to even
think about using the cleats again - which won't be today...

Suggestion - do it in this order

Get up to speed - make it 25km/h. At this speed, you can roll for
oh, 500m or so before you'll get unstable? Ages anyway ...
click out with one foot while rolling. Don't even think about
stopping etc .. just click out and then click back in again. With the
bike going that fast, it'll be stable (you can get shoved in the hip at
that
speed and the bike will just wobble a bit).

Once you get comfy doing that, do the other foot - it does help to be
able
to pull both feet out

Then, once happy with that, take a foot out, wave the leg around, pop
it
back in again .. repeat until really annoying everyone with your
showoff
antics.

Then, rolling along at 25km/h, unclip and *then* brake to stop. So
you're already off the cleat before you think about stopping. Repeat
..... As you
get better at it, you can decrease the time you give yourself between
unclipping and stopping. You'll pick it up in a flash.

The really stupid thing about it is that I know I can stop the bike and
track stand for a little while on my normal pedals - wouldn't even have
contemplated starting to use the cleats if I hadn't got to that point -
but when it came time to stop AND remove my foot from the cleat AND just
get it all together,

Wrong order, that's why. Unclip, then stop, not stop, then unclip.
Give
yourself time to unclip! If you can trackstand, balance is not an
issue,
but time is.

it didn't happen - so I hurt myself and Dave's
yelling at me cos I scared him too

There's that "partners make bad teachers" thing again!

It was pretty windy out there too I'd bet? Doesn't help when you're
learning a new skill.

Claes wrote:

Oh, yeah, I forgat to tell you, I have not been allowed to run since I
was 21, I suffer from Perthes Disease,

Isn't that a psychological disorder that manifests itself
in its sufferers all baracking for the west coast beagles,
and wanting to succeed from the commonwealth?!

I hear there's a cure, baracking for the Freemantle clockwatchers and
finishing school!

which means that I will probably
have to replace my hip before the age of 40.

ahha, that's because you have "kick-a-vic-itis".
Too much kicking Victorians! I've been to Perth ...

I know a bloke with Krones' disease, he reckons it's about
his guts, but I know he just can't help but use a punchtool on
every bit of loose wire he sees.

Bleve wrote:
Kathy wrote:

Bleve wrote:



It was only Hawthorn so nearly flat. She did however have the 2
accidents one has on a velo.. ie falling off then sliding down. Right
on where the start finish line would be if there were one. A lot of
damage for a low speed fall.


Can I suggest that clipping in and out be done at the carpark
just up behind the velodrone instead? It's flat. Dealing with
a lean (even the slight 2 degrees or so at hwtn) is only going
to make it harder.


Yeah we can try that

and, SPD-SL's and SPD's are (from the PoV of disengaging) identical,
and if anything, you'll need to flick out your heel further
in old SPDs than in newish SPD-SL's. Just back off the tension to
its lowest setting. You'll get it ...


Ummm. No.


The action is identical - flick heel out to ~25 degrees or so, and
pop - out they come. If they're backed way off, they are very
easy to get out of. The amount of force required is trivial
from a leg. That won't be the problem. It sounds like a
confidence/balance
issue more than anything to do with the pedals.

Sure. But the effort to get her foot out screwed her balance.


I have not used SL before. They are backed all the way off. And if I
have the pedal in one hand and the shoes in the other i can JUST
disengage em by twisting my wrist. And I aint a weak bunny. Now I know
the leverage of a leg is much more. But I can easily disengage my SPDs
with the same test. And in fact I have backed em off absolutely all the
way since so they are sloppier than when I tried that. Yeah the
movement may be greater but the effort is minimal.


Try the same, with the pedal held by a crankarm in a bike.

ummm actually with my hand I couldnt twist the SLs off under that test.
Like I said fairly decent effort. Now it may be that they are ok in
normal use by a normal person.. but just at the moment if they are real
easy for kathy to get out of then I am going to be happier


Yes the SLs were ajusted right. In fact if I turn em up I cant even
clip em in with the bits in my hands.


The spring is designed to hold against vertical forces - they have
to deal with quite a lot of force in one direction. That you
can't clip into them by hand is not suprising, unless again, they're
hooked up to a bike.

Yep but if the effort increases when I adjust em one way then the other
way is backing the tension off. Which accords with the info I found on
the web site. Which proves I wasnt sending Kath out with the things
done up to deal with Lance on a good day. Which was my point.


Its possible that there is something wrong with the Sls I guess. I
really dont know. I was going to tru em on my shoes but I dont have the
internal plates for them. Im interested cos I have pulled the shoes out
of the cleats a couple of times and was thinking of trying these myself.
They are PD-R540s All advice gratefully received.


That's the black 105 ones?

Yep

I have a pair of them 2m from me right
now on my beater. The transition from SPD to SPD-SL I found to
be almost unnoticable when I did it (2 years ago or so now),
except that they're more comfortable and lighter (and easier to clip
in!)

Got space cleat mounting plates?

Kathys one of these people who need to know how things work. So I have
been showing her the way it all works. Hopefully it starts to come together

Its distressing to see her hurting her confidence (and self) so badly.
A confident kathy is well a good thing.


Does she have good bike balance?

Ummm. WHen she is confident I would put her skills at about the 90th
percentile of bike path users. Maybe the 30th percentile of road users.
She has a way to go.
I would imagine that if one is
a bit spooked, that one will tend to ride slowly, and that causes
2 problems with cleats - 1 - you don't have the rolling balance to
keep things stable when you flick your leg out, and 2 - you don't have
much time before the bike becomes unstable (if it isn't already), ie:
you have to rush it. Fear takes over .. and *bang* one is sitting on
the ground!

Yeah

What I've done in the past with nervous riders is get them riding
reasonably quickly, and ride beside them, and get them to
(20km/h+) click out while not worrying about having to actually stop,
and then click back in - this gets them used to the action without
having
to worry about actually stopping. If it helps, you can rest an
arm on their shoulder when they do it (not necessary, but provides
a mental aid more than anything real) My golden rule with cleats is
"click
out earlier than you think you need to". You can always click back
in again and get going if the lights change!


And again yeah.