FLU

On Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 10:38:23 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 at 5:16:03 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
snip

Quite obviously you have never really lived in the country. Honking,
screeching, indeed.

What you have in the country is roosters that get up before daylight
to proclaim their rights to the big manure pile that they claim as
their fief. The cows bellowing to be milked... Good Lord, the
pressures! If you do go to town you have the be careful to be back for
milking time. No sleeping in on weekends the cows got to be milked and
the chickens fed and the eggs gathered. ...


All very regular patterns, unlike much of the stuff going in cities.


You are making things up again. Being woken up at first rooster crow,
before the sun comes up, may be a regular pattern but not particularly
a pleasant one.

Or not being able to leave the farm for more then twelve hours because
you have to do the milking?

You don't even want to stay up to watch the "Late Show" on the tellie
as those damned roosters don't sleep late.



... No two weeks vacation either,
you got to get the plowing done and the garden in or there won't be
anything to eat next winter.


Hint: Agricultural things have progressed quite well since you were a
kid. Nowadays they have GPS controlled combines which can be operated by
staff and not only the owner of the farm.

Sure. Combine harvesting has been going on even longer then I've been
around and they are expensive, which is why you seldom see one in the
normal farmer's inventory. But what you don't think about is that to
be economical combine harvesting can only be used in large fields that
are relatively flat have straight boundaries. It isn't effective in
fields that are irregular in shape or are not relatively flat.


And sure studies are made of the pressures of city life... All you
need to do is write up a good proposal and get the grant and away you
go. A government funded study. We get them over here. Every few years
you see an article in the Bangkok newspaper about someone that got yet
another grant to study "Prostitution in Thailand". So ignoring the
fact that prostitution have been studied innumerable times in the past
some bloke gets a grant to study them once again.


Having lived in the country and in the city, I don't need studies. I
know and made my choices accordingly. Interestingly my wife who grew up
in a huge city sees it the same way. She would never move back there.

Well yes, the best of both worlds. Out of the built up areas and still
close enough that one can drive into town for shows and shopping. One
might call it the dilettante life style.

The problem with this conversation is that Joerg oscillates between the abstract "country" and the reality of Cameron Park -- which is a golf-course community with an "airpark" in the Sierra foothills up the road from Sacramento. It's a fine place to live if you like suburban developments. It does put you near open space, but its not the wild west, the Mid West or anything like the "country" that I envision -- e.g. farm land or the mostly vacant land in eastern Oregon. https://traveloregon.com/wp-content/...ning_final.jpg

I have no problem with bedroom communities or small towns near large towns. I'd live in one, and they can be quiet and relaxed -- unless they're filled with angry drunk drivers and mountain lions. For a sleepy bedroom community, Cameron Park seems more dangerous and stressful than NYC. And with planes buzzing around, it can't be that quiet close to town -- but who knows.. http://www.city-data.com/forum/sacra...sion-good.html

-- Jay Beattie.

where did the trees go ? Indians tell me the place was covered with mature juniper n fat deer

On 11/29/2017 8:01 PM, John B. wrote:


I'd have to point out that the average horse produces about 37 pounds
of feces and 2.4 gallons of urine daily, which totals about 50 pounds
of raw waste per day in feces and urine combined.

About that:

A few years ago, my wife and I were on a driving trip heading west and
decided to head north through Michigan and camp at Michigan's Upper
Peninsula.

Along the way, we spontaneously decided to visit Mackinac Island, a
small car-free resort island in Lake Huron. People get around the island
by foot, by bike or by horse-drawn carriage. It sounded charming, and
we'd never been there.

We called ahead to reserve a hotel room, then loaded our bikes onto the
ferry and disembarked at the island. Walking from the dock to the main
street, we passed through a sort of long roofed arcade, and I got
worried: Do they have lots of homeless bums here, who pee anywhere they
want to? The smell of urine was _very_ strong!

Once we got to the charming main street, I stopped worrying about bums.
The problem was horses. The gutters were literally running with horse ****.

And it occurred to me: This is probably how all cities smelled before
the motor car arrived to remove the horse pollution.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 11/29/2017 8:28 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 17:18:13 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/29/2017 1:22 PM, Joerg wrote:

It is correct that it is almost a bedroom community though we do have a
business park right in the village. Airplane noise, yes, but a Cessna
172 purring off into the distance is something different than the din of
traffic and other noise in a large city.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDWZkXjDYsc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECGCoo3Ogxg

Again, false dichotomy. You pretend the only choices are the din of a
dense mega-city vs. a neighborhood so quiet you can hear the mountain
lions tiptoeing by.

My ride today was 47 miles. I was passed by maybe 100 cars the entire
time, most of those because I wandered around some old suburbs at the
end rather than riding directly home. There were several five mile
stretches where no cars passed me at all.

Yet if I'd chosen to ride northwest instead of southeast, I could have
ridden through two decent sized cities and their government buildings,
libraries, restaurants, entertainment venues, shopping malls and more.
And since I know all the roads and streets, including the quiet ones,
traffic would have been very easy for me to handle.

I thank God I'm not so timid as to be afraid to ride the roads.

Ohooo... but you must be some sort of daredevil. Why I've even heard
that you often ride a bicycle without even the most basic safety
feature, the bicycle helmet.

There is that rumor! ;-)


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 11/29/2017 9:12 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 10:38:23 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 at 5:16:03 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
snip

Quite obviously you have never really lived in the country. Honking,
screeching, indeed.

What you have in the country is roosters that get up before daylight
to proclaim their rights to the big manure pile that they claim as
their fief. The cows bellowing to be milked... Good Lord, the
pressures! If you do go to town you have the be careful to be back for
milking time. No sleeping in on weekends the cows got to be milked and
the chickens fed and the eggs gathered. ...


All very regular patterns, unlike much of the stuff going in cities.


You are making things up again. Being woken up at first rooster crow,
before the sun comes up, may be a regular pattern but not particularly
a pleasant one.

Or not being able to leave the farm for more then twelve hours because
you have to do the milking?

You don't even want to stay up to watch the "Late Show" on the tellie
as those damned roosters don't sleep late.



... No two weeks vacation either,
you got to get the plowing done and the garden in or there won't be
anything to eat next winter.


Hint: Agricultural things have progressed quite well since you were a
kid. Nowadays they have GPS controlled combines which can be operated by
staff and not only the owner of the farm.

Sure. Combine harvesting has been going on even longer then I've been
around and they are expensive, which is why you seldom see one in the
normal farmer's inventory. But what you don't think about is that to
be economical combine harvesting can only be used in large fields that
are relatively flat have straight boundaries. It isn't effective in
fields that are irregular in shape or are not relatively flat.


And sure studies are made of the pressures of city life... All you
need to do is write up a good proposal and get the grant and away you
go. A government funded study. We get them over here. Every few years
you see an article in the Bangkok newspaper about someone that got yet
another grant to study "Prostitution in Thailand". So ignoring the
fact that prostitution have been studied innumerable times in the past
some bloke gets a grant to study them once again.


Having lived in the country and in the city, I don't need studies. I
know and made my choices accordingly. Interestingly my wife who grew up
in a huge city sees it the same way. She would never move back there.

Well yes, the best of both worlds. Out of the built up areas and still
close enough that one can drive into town for shows and shopping. One
might call it the dilettante life style.

The problem with this conversation is that Joerg oscillates between the abstract "country" and the reality of Cameron Park -- which is a golf-course community with an "airpark" in the Sierra foothills up the road from Sacramento. It's a fine place to live if you like suburban developments. It does put you near open space, but its not the wild west, the Mid West or anything like the "country" that I envision -- e.g. farm land or the mostly vacant land in eastern Oregon. https://traveloregon.com/wp-content/...ning_final.jpg

I have no problem with bedroom communities or small towns near large towns. I'd live in one, and they can be quiet and relaxed -- unless they're filled with angry drunk drivers and mountain lions. For a sleepy bedroom community, Cameron Park seems more dangerous and stressful than NYC. And with planes buzzing around, it can't be that quiet close to town -- but who knows. http://www.city-data.com/forum/sacra...sion-good.html

-- Jay Beattie.

where did the trees go ? Indians tell me the place was covered with mature juniper n fat deer

Well, I'm pretty sure the fat deer all migrated to the suburbs around here.

This afternoon, my wife said "Deer in the back yard again." I said
"Looks delicious. Should I get the gun?"

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 08:01:55 +0700, John B.
wrote:

The radio programs advertising animal feed is obviously not germane
when discussing your living accommodations.

Not to mention that the vast majority of the horses in the United
States are pets -- horse feed in the supermarket is a sure sign that
you are *not* in farming country.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 22:24:27 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/29/2017 8:01 PM, John B. wrote:


I'd have to point out that the average horse produces about 37 pounds
of feces and 2.4 gallons of urine daily, which totals about 50 pounds
of raw waste per day in feces and urine combined.

About that:

A few years ago, my wife and I were on a driving trip heading west and
decided to head north through Michigan and camp at Michigan's Upper
Peninsula.

Along the way, we spontaneously decided to visit Mackinac Island, a
small car-free resort island in Lake Huron. People get around the island
by foot, by bike or by horse-drawn carriage. It sounded charming, and
we'd never been there.

We called ahead to reserve a hotel room, then loaded our bikes onto the
ferry and disembarked at the island. Walking from the dock to the main
street, we passed through a sort of long roofed arcade, and I got
worried: Do they have lots of homeless bums here, who pee anywhere they
want to? The smell of urine was _very_ strong!

Once we got to the charming main street, I stopped worrying about bums.
The problem was horses. The gutters were literally running with horse ****.

And it occurred to me: This is probably how all cities smelled before
the motor car arrived to remove the horse pollution.

Prior to the advent of motor vehicles it was estimated that there were
100,000 to 200,000 horses employed in New York City. At an average of,
say 30 lbs of feces and perhaps 2 gallons of urine we are talking
about, say 150,000 X 2 gallons or 300,000 gallons of urine and 2,250
tons of manure a day.

Of course, there was a whole industry engaged in keeping New York
clean but given that a large wagon, similar to the famous "Conestoga
wagon" could carry about 6 tons and was pulled by a 4 to 6 horse
team... well, 2250/6 X 6 X 30 lbs, etc.

Strange as it may seem today the advent of the internal combustion
engine was hailed as an "environmental savior."
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 22:26:53 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/29/2017 8:28 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 17:18:13 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/29/2017 1:22 PM, Joerg wrote:

It is correct that it is almost a bedroom community though we do have a
business park right in the village. Airplane noise, yes, but a Cessna
172 purring off into the distance is something different than the din of
traffic and other noise in a large city.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDWZkXjDYsc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECGCoo3Ogxg

Again, false dichotomy. You pretend the only choices are the din of a
dense mega-city vs. a neighborhood so quiet you can hear the mountain
lions tiptoeing by.

My ride today was 47 miles. I was passed by maybe 100 cars the entire
time, most of those because I wandered around some old suburbs at the
end rather than riding directly home. There were several five mile
stretches where no cars passed me at all.

Yet if I'd chosen to ride northwest instead of southeast, I could have
ridden through two decent sized cities and their government buildings,
libraries, restaurants, entertainment venues, shopping malls and more.
And since I know all the roads and streets, including the quiet ones,
traffic would have been very easy for me to handle.

I thank God I'm not so timid as to be afraid to ride the roads.

Ohooo... but you must be some sort of daredevil. Why I've even heard
that you often ride a bicycle without even the most basic safety
feature, the bicycle helmet.

There is that rumor! ;-)

One assumes that your new signature block will read "Fearless Frank"
:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 14:38:31 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 05:50:19 -0000 (UTC), dave
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 08:15:59 +0700, John B. wrote:

epic snip

... No two weeks vacation either,
you got to get the plowing done and the garden in or there won't be
anything to eat next winter.


Hint: Agricultural things have progressed quite well since you were a
kid. Nowadays they have GPS controlled combines which can be operated
by staff and not only the owner of the farm.

Sure. Combine harvesting has been going on even longer then I've been
around and they are expensive, which is why you seldom see one in the
normal farmer's inventory. But what you don't think about is that to
be economical combine harvesting can only be used in large fields that
are relatively flat have straight boundaries. It isn't effective in
fields that are irregular in shape or are not relatively flat.

Have you read " The Grapes of Wrath"?

Certainly. It was a lot of years ago but I don't remember anything about
Combine Harvesters. I remember that the harvests had failed and everyone
left for California.

The harvests were down. But the main focus was the industrialisation of
farming and people being run off the land by banks buying up small farms.
These were then joined together into easily tractorable long straight
lines.
--
davethedave

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 23:44:55 -0400, Joy Beeson
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 08:01:55 +0700, John B.
wrote:

The radio programs advertising animal feed is obviously not germane
when discussing your living accommodations.

Not to mention that the vast majority of the horses in the United
States are pets -- horse feed in the supermarket is a sure sign that
you are *not* in farming country.

Back when we had horses I never saw horse feed in a sack small enough
that you could carry it out of the supermarket :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 06:19:20 -0000 (UTC), dave
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 14:38:31 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 05:50:19 -0000 (UTC), dave
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 08:15:59 +0700, John B. wrote:

epic snip

... No two weeks vacation either,
you got to get the plowing done and the garden in or there won't be
anything to eat next winter.


Hint: Agricultural things have progressed quite well since you were a
kid. Nowadays they have GPS controlled combines which can be operated
by staff and not only the owner of the farm.

Sure. Combine harvesting has been going on even longer then I've been
around and they are expensive, which is why you seldom see one in the
normal farmer's inventory. But what you don't think about is that to
be economical combine harvesting can only be used in large fields that
are relatively flat have straight boundaries. It isn't effective in
fields that are irregular in shape or are not relatively flat.

Have you read " The Grapes of Wrath"?

Certainly. It was a lot of years ago but I don't remember anything about
Combine Harvesters. I remember that the harvests had failed and everyone
left for California.

The harvests were down. But the main focus was the industrialisation of
farming and people being run off the land by banks buying up small farms.
These were then joined together into easily tractorable long straight
lines.


Not to get into a big argument but I seem to remember that the main
point in the first part of the book was the fact that the rains had
failed and turned that part of the country into a "dust bowl" and that
there was no work, no food, no nothing. And yes, people lost their
land when they didn't pay their bills, but that was hardly a practice
restricted to Oklahoma. But worse, as the farmers defaulted on their
loans banks failed at a high rate and there was simply no credit
available at all.

But yes, there were underlying reasons. The common use of tractors
allowed plowing much wider areas than a man and a horse could plow,
tractors were far more powerful and allowed deep plowing which
destroyed the deep root structures of the prairie grasses but the
basic reason was a series of droughts during most of the 1930's. It
created what was quite literally a dust bowl with 75% of the top soil
blown away. Over an area of 100,000,000 acres.

It also triggered (I believe) the largest immigration in U.S. history
with something like approximately 3.5 million people moved out of the
area in the period from approximately 1930 - 1940.


--
Cheers,

John B.