Chinese Carbon Wheelset

On Sunday, August 25, 2019 at 4:08:07 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/25/2019 5:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 6:58:56 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 25/8/19 7:36 am, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:18:05 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 25/8/19 5:18 am, Tom Kunich wrote:


I have never used "carbon paste" for anything and can't imagine why.


Imagine harder.

--
JS

Why? I have had CF frames for a long time. I've never even SEEN "carbon paste" let alone used it for anything.



Because you complained about a CF seat post slipping. You wrote:

"In one point it again made that noise and it appears that it was the
seat post moving. Think that I'll throw away that Campy Carbon seatpost
and install an aluminum one."


--
JS

Let me get this straight - you suggest putting an abrasive in the seat tube?

To Lou, Duane and Jay:

See?

O.K., you win, but with an asterisk, like a wind-assisted victory.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 19:19:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/25/2019 5:45 PM, jbeattie wrote:


FWIW, my Emonda came with a torque wrench. https://www.sefiles.net/images/libra...5-195713-1.jpg And a manual.

I do think every bike with torque-critical components should come with a
torque wrench. That would be a practical and helpful sign to a new owner
that more care is needed, and would add almost nothing to the cost of
the bike.

Very, very few people even know what a torque wrench is. Even fewer own
torque wrenches.

Frank, I just had a look in my "bicycle tool box" and I've quite a
quantity of tools, cone wrenches, crank arm pullers, old style B.B.
wrenches, new style sealed bearing B.B., chain tool, a set of 4 "tee"
handled hex wrenches used only on bicycles. Wheel stand - actually got
two of those, a number of spoke wrenches, Chain whip to remove rear
freewheel, wheel alignment gauge, several "bike stands" for kickstand
less bikes, repair stand with clamping frame holder.

In short, given the current tools list I don't believe that adding a
torque wrench, if I were to buy a plastic bicycle, is going to prove
an insurmountable challenge.
--
cheers,

John B.

On 26/8/19 1:48 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/24/2019 9:58 PM, James wrote:
On 25/8/19 7:36 am, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:18:05 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 25/8/19 5:18 am, Tom Kunich wrote:


I have never used "carbon paste" for anything and can't
imagine why.


Imagine harder.

-- JS

Why? I have had CF frames for a long time. I've never even SEEN
"carbon paste" let alone used it for anything.



Because you complained about a CF seat post slipping. You wrote:

"In one point it again made that noise and it appears that it was
the seat post moving. Think that I'll throw away that Campy Carbon
seatpost and install an aluminum one."

So Tom is a case in point. He's got to be more mechanically competent
than most recreational cyclists. He's got decades of experience. But
even he doesn't know that carbon paste is recommended for many part
interfaces.

I think there must be tens of thousands of newbies who will know less
than that, and will over-torque or otherwise damage lightweight CF
parts, especially as CF gets less expensive and more common.



To be fair, it is easy to over torque many fasteners on a modern bicycle
that have no CF involved.

Most A head stems, for example, are aluminium and spec'ed for ~7 Nm.
Easy when you own a reasonable torque wrench designed for that low
torque range, and easy to strip for those with fists of ham.

And it's been easy to over torque stuff and damage parts for
generations. All cranks for square taper BBs for example. If you
properly grease the axle and nut or bolt, it is easy to pull a crank on
too far by over torquing the fastener.

Heck, if you over tighten spoke nipples you'll pull a nipple through an
aluminium rim sooner or later, or damage a hub or break spokes!

--
JS

On 26/8/19 7:26 am, wrote:
On Sunday, August 25, 2019 at 11:16:36 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:39:01 PM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 11:36:31 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:18:05 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 25/8/19 5:18 am, Tom Kunich wrote:


I have never used "carbon paste" for anything and can't
imagine why.


Imagine harder.

-- JS

Why? I have had CF frames for a long time. I've never even SEEN
"carbon paste" let alone used it for anything.

Really? Google it, it has been around for ages.

Lou

Toothpaste has been around for ages as well and I sure as hell
ain't putting it on my bike.

From someone who has a slipping seat post and an awful track record
in breaking things I would expect a smarter reply.


Really? I think you just explained the reply perfectly.

--
JS

On 26/8/19 7:34 am, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 6:58:56 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 25/8/19 7:36 am, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:18:05 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 25/8/19 5:18 am, Tom Kunich wrote:


I have never used "carbon paste" for anything and can't imagine why.


Imagine harder.

--
JS

Why? I have had CF frames for a long time. I've never even SEEN "carbon paste" let alone used it for anything.



Because you complained about a CF seat post slipping. You wrote:

"In one point it again made that noise and it appears that it was the
seat post moving. Think that I'll throw away that Campy Carbon seatpost
and install an aluminum one."



Let me get this straight - you suggest putting an abrasive in the seat tube?



Yes.

--
JS

On Sunday, August 25, 2019 at 11:55:46 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, August 25, 2019 at 2:26:55 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, August 25, 2019 at 11:16:36 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:39:01 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 11:36:31 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:18:05 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 25/8/19 5:18 am, Tom Kunich wrote:


I have never used "carbon paste" for anything and can't imagine why.


Imagine harder.

--
JS

Why? I have had CF frames for a long time. I've never even SEEN "carbon paste" let alone used it for anything.

Really? Google it, it has been around for ages.

Lou

Toothpaste has been around for ages as well and I sure as hell ain't putting it on my bike.

From someone who has a slipping seat post and an awful track record in breaking things I would expect a smarter reply.

Lou

So you don't own any of this stuff yourself but you know all about it?

Tom I own bike stuff you only can dream of. That aside it isn't rocket science even Jay knows about it and he is a laywer. When CF seatposts came around for reason you can argue about you got warned not to use grease to prevent seizing and/or squeeking and you get warned not to overtighten the clamp.. With the limited torque sometimes you got a slipping and squeeking CF seatpost. The use of carbon paste took care of that. With CF seatposts we went through a learning curve and most of the CF seatpost sold today benefited from that learning curve and have quite a safety margin. The main advantages of modern CF seatpost isn't weight but comfort and aero.

Lou

On 24/08/2019 22.58, John B. wrote:

snip


Ah but I thought it was "Buy America Day!" (I think that your French
wine is going up :-) so I quoted "Park Tool Supergrip Carbon and Alloy
Assembly Compound ", I mean, Supergrip"? Must be better than that
Cheap Chinese stuff?

I gave up on that crap and now use super localised hypergrip with added
unobtanium. Apparently 500g lighter than it's nearest competitor, so
environmentally friendly you can grow trees in it, and it absorbs CO2
out of the atmosphere to boot!

On 8/26/2019 1:24 AM, James wrote:
On 26/8/19 1:48 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/24/2019 9:58 PM, James wrote:
On 25/8/19 7:36 am, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:18:05 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 25/8/19 5:18 am, Tom Kunich wrote:


I have never used "carbon paste" for anything and can't
imagine why.


Imagine harder.

-- JS

Why? I have had CF frames for a long time. I've never even SEEN
"carbon paste" let alone used it for anything.



Because you complained about a CF seat post slipping.Â* You wrote:

"In one point it again made that noise and it appears that it was
the seat post moving. Think that I'll throw away that Campy Carbon
Â*seatpost and install an aluminum one."

So Tom is a case in point. He's got to be more mechanically competent
Â*than most recreational cyclists. He's got decades of experience. But
Â*even he doesn't know that carbon paste is recommended for many part
Â*interfaces.

I think there must be tens of thousands of newbies who will know less
Â*than that, and will over-torque or otherwise damage lightweight CF
parts, especially as CF gets less expensive and more common.



To be fair, it is easy to over torque many fasteners on a modern bicycle
that have no CF involved.

Most A head stems, for example, are aluminium and spec'ed for ~7 Nm.
Easy when you own a reasonable torque wrench designed for that low
torque range, and easy to strip for those with fists of ham.

And it's been easy to over torque stuff and damage parts for
generations.Â* All cranks for square taper BBs for example.Â* If you
properly grease the axle and nut or bolt, it is easy to pull a crank on
too far by over torquing the fastener.

Heck, if you over tighten spoke nipples you'll pull a nipple through an
aluminium rim sooner or later, or damage a hub or break spokes!

That's true, but the examples you gave pertain mostly to either
lightweight equipment or equipment (cranks, spokes) that the casual
cyclist doesn't typically deal with.

Casual cyclists are the ones who are least likely to have torque
wrenches, or to bother reading manuals for torque specs. Those people
are most likely to adjust just a few things: Saddle height and tilt,
stem height, handlebar tilt, and left-to-right handlebar straightness.
Those can and should be designed to withstand ham-fisted newbie
mechanics, and to not require exotic elixers that ordinary homeowners
have never heard of.

Maybe this could be a compromise: Make every bike in two models. One
model would withstand the hacking of a typical garage mechanic. The
other model would require a torque table and torque wrench. But the
delicate model would come with bright red or bright yellow "DELICATE!"
labels permanently fastened at every vulnerable joint. And somewhere on
the frame, another bright yellow label saying "This DELICATE model is
124 grams [or whatever] lighter than its stronger mate."


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 8/25/2019 7:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:

I went to meet my neighbor for a ride, and he says, hey, could you try riding my bike, it just isn't shifting well. So I got on his bike (which is way too small), and it had an odd shifting issue that didn't quite feel like new chain/cassette issues. It was subtle and more like a loose freehub body. So I tell him that, and he goes, O.K., let me check. He pops off the cassettes, checks the body, which isn't loose, but the cones on his Campy hub/wheel are a little loose, so he pulls out his cone wrenches, adjusts the hub, throws the cassettes back on and pops the wheel back in his Pinarello. Shifts like a charm. Took 8 minutes.

Yes, some people are good bike mechanics. Most people are not.

This will always be the case. Different people know different things,
which is OK. But I think it's a bad idea to push actually fragile
equipment to people who need rugged reliability a lot more than tiny
improvements in speed.

Grrrrrr. Rugged reliability! You know, I've never seen anyone force a super-light bike on someone, and I've been to a lot of bike shops. My son sold bikes and let people make stupid purchases, but they were usually double suspended fat bikes and other odd-ball bikes. He worked in Specialized and Trek shops, and I don't recall one instance of him forcing an S-Works Tarmac on some unsuspecting old lady or a Madone.

I'm not accusing (most) bike shop people of pushing Madones on old
ladies... even though I had a friend who decided to get into biking at
about age 65, and was sold a similar bike. I suspect the guy's (much
younger) cyclist girl friend was responsible for the bad choice, but the
shop certainly abetted the decision. (The guy gave up riding after a few
months.)

But I think the industry does tend to promote unneeded sophistication
and, in some cases, fragility. It's parallel to the auto industry
pushing SUVs - each unit is much more profitable.

It's not just carbon fiber. How about gearing? Only a microscopic
percentage of cyclists get any benefit out of more than 8 rear cogs.
Everyone with 9, and especially 10 or 11, pay for more expensive parts
that are less failure tolerant and wear quicker.

How about all the bottom bracket standards we've (or rather, you've)
gone through? Each one intended to be lighter and stiffer - and weirder.
Some consumers are now left up the creek without a crank.

We've been around and around about road discs. Yes, they make sense for
your rainy commutes, but they really don't make sense for most riders.
But hey, they are "in"! Why buy a bike with rim brakes? Just because
they work as well for almost everyone, are easier to adjust, easier to
repair, cost less and are less fashionable?

Wheels: Ever fewer spokes, of ever weirder designs, in ever lighter
wheels. Do you remember days when spoke nipples didn't crack rims?

I do remember, partly because I'm still using wheels like that. I
remember when all my friends rode aluminum or steel frames, 5 or 6 or 7
rear cogs, square taper bottom brackets, etc. We're older now, but we
and even the younger riders are no faster and ride no further now than
in those days.

I think the major problem is that "what's best" is still being defined
as "what racers use." I think most bike makers still promote that
mindset. I think it's a disservice to most bicyclists.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, 26 August 2019 12:25:27 UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/25/2019 7:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:

I went to meet my neighbor for a ride, and he says, hey, could you try riding my bike, it just isn't shifting well. So I got on his bike (which is way too small), and it had an odd shifting issue that didn't quite feel like new chain/cassette issues. It was subtle and more like a loose freehub body. So I tell him that, and he goes, O.K., let me check. He pops off the cassettes, checks the body, which isn't loose, but the cones on his Campy hub/wheel are a little loose, so he pulls out his cone wrenches, adjusts the hub, throws the cassettes back on and pops the wheel back in his Pinarello. Shifts like a charm. Took 8 minutes.

Yes, some people are good bike mechanics. Most people are not.

This will always be the case. Different people know different things,
which is OK. But I think it's a bad idea to push actually fragile
equipment to people who need rugged reliability a lot more than tiny
improvements in speed.

Grrrrrr. Rugged reliability! You know, I've never seen anyone force a super-light bike on someone, and I've been to a lot of bike shops. My son sold bikes and let people make stupid purchases, but they were usually double suspended fat bikes and other odd-ball bikes. He worked in Specialized and Trek shops, and I don't recall one instance of him forcing an S-Works Tarmac on some unsuspecting old lady or a Madone.

I'm not accusing (most) bike shop people of pushing Madones on old
ladies... even though I had a friend who decided to get into biking at
about age 65, and was sold a similar bike. I suspect the guy's (much
younger) cyclist girl friend was responsible for the bad choice, but the
shop certainly abetted the decision. (The guy gave up riding after a few
months.)

But I think the industry does tend to promote unneeded sophistication
and, in some cases, fragility. It's parallel to the auto industry
pushing SUVs - each unit is much more profitable.

It's not just carbon fiber. How about gearing? Only a microscopic
percentage of cyclists get any benefit out of more than 8 rear cogs.
Everyone with 9, and especially 10 or 11, pay for more expensive parts
that are less failure tolerant and wear quicker.

How about all the bottom bracket standards we've (or rather, you've)
gone through? Each one intended to be lighter and stiffer - and weirder.
Some consumers are now left up the creek without a crank.

We've been around and around about road discs. Yes, they make sense for
your rainy commutes, but they really don't make sense for most riders.
But hey, they are "in"! Why buy a bike with rim brakes? Just because
they work as well for almost everyone, are easier to adjust, easier to
repair, cost less and are less fashionable?

Wheels: Ever fewer spokes, of ever weirder designs, in ever lighter
wheels. Do you remember days when spoke nipples didn't crack rims?

I do remember, partly because I'm still using wheels like that. I
remember when all my friends rode aluminum or steel frames, 5 or 6 or 7
rear cogs, square taper bottom brackets, etc. We're older now, but we
and even the younger riders are no faster and ride no further now than
in those days.

I think the major problem is that "what's best" is still being defined
as "what racers use." I think most bike makers still promote that
mindset. I think it's a disservice to most bicyclists.

--
- Frank Krygowski

I've worked in a few bicycle shops back in the day. Sometimes a new customer would come in and DEMAND a bicycle that we thought didn't suit them or meet their needs but they'd INSIST on getting the bicycle they had already decided on.

Also, whilst working at bicycle shops I saw my fair share of crushed or even broken seat lug ears where someone really reefed on the seat binder bolt trying to tighten it. A lot of those times it was NOT due to an undersize seatpost either.

Some people will over torque something no matter what sort of warnings you put on things. You've posted here many times of instances of your incompetent engineering or other friends who didn't know how to do either a simple repair or adjustment on a bicycle.

Cheers