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Why do some forks and frames have brake rotor size limits?



 
 
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  #241  
Old October 31st 17, 03:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 3,345
Default Why do some forks and frames have brake rotor size limits?

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 1:54:27 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-30 12:35, wrote:
On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 9:39:55 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-29 12:57,
wrote:
On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 10:02:12 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-29 09:45,
wrote:
On Saturday, October 28, 2017 at 8:09:18 AM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote:

And grandpa has driven his cars without safety belts yet
survived ...

For people who do not shy away from unpaved roads or use a
lot of singletrack and ride in the rain there is a much
more extreme issue: Wet mud.

There is NO brake the is proof against wet mud. In fact it is
perhaps worse on a disk since the additional pressure of the
pads can turn the silicon present in most muds into cutting
instruments that on rim brakes cuts into the rubber show
rather than the hard and thin disk pad.


Actually, no. I've had mud literally dripping from the calipers
which had become barely recognizable brownish blobs. The only
thing that happens is that they make an awful grinding noise
just like muddy rim brakes do. With the two major differences
that they still come on full force immediately and that this
grinding does not eat up aluminum. Aluminum as one of the
braking surfaces plain does not make any sense, certainly not
in a muddy environment.

A downside of bicycle disc brakes is that in contrast to most
motor vehicles the rotors have "vent holes" and weight weenie
spiders. This results in rather fast heat-up and in "brake
mousse" when you plow through thick vegetation on an overgrown
trail. Mashed star-thistle and other weeds get shredded and a
sort of pulp develops which cakes up in the holes of the rotor.
It doesn't diminish the brake force but lets of a bad stench.
One of the reasons why I carry a Swiss Army knife in a pocket.
Not in a pannier, so I can whip it out in seconds. This also
helps in poking out the giant mud clump that forms behind the
BB and can prevent the rear wheel from turning.

Joerg - that additional noise is wear.


Sure. However, the rotors last thousands of miles, cost around $20
and take only minutes to change. The pads cost $2/pair for
ceramic-based material (like motorcycles have) and last around
1000mi depending on turf and weather. That is way more hassle than
with a motor vehicle but way less hassle than swapping out a shot
rim.

I started riding again in fall 2013, using an older model MTB with
almost zero miles on it. By the end of 2013 it had around 1000mi on
it and the front rim looks horrible.

The problem in our area is this: Mud contains granules of
decomposed granite. Rubber pads need water diverter grooves and the
granules lodge in these grooves. They also pierce the rubber itself
and lodge in there. When pulling the lever that lets of a horrid
grinding noise. Coming down a hill you have to keep the brake
engaged and you can literally hear the rim being tortured all the
way to the bottom of the hill. On flat surfaces you have to stop
and pry out the granules. On a rainy day that means stopping every
few miles. I stand by my opinion that rim brakes are inadequate for
any serious MTB riding.


Well, perhaps it was from older parts but I saw a significant number
of MTB riders walking their bikes back off of hills. Those were the
older cable pull brakes so that might have been when they were still
developing the proper compounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdb7KEc7xJI


Wow, 2x the stopping distance for the rim brakes. I wouldn't have
imagined it could be that much worse.


This is comparing an 11 speed Ghost with an aluminum el-cheapo
Raleigh. This was a highly unfair test to begin with: On the climbing
test the Raleigh had an eight speed compact that simply didn't have
the correct gearing. And the bicycle size and set-up was entirely
wrong.

On the braking test it was hydraulic disks against what appeared to
the the old-fashioned long throw brakes. There was so much bend in
the brakes that you could bottom out the lever.


I don't think he bottomed out the levers.


On the TT again the problem was that there simply wasn't the proper
gearing. And since the Raleigh wasn't sized correctly it was nearly
impossible to get into an aero position.

Personally in the brake test I believe my Skeleton brakes would have
finished not exactly with the disks but really close. There is no
flex to speak of in my brakes and while I think I could lock the
front wheel and allow the rear wheel to rise off of the ground there
is absolutely no day I would do such a thing.

My bikes are set up similar seating position to the Raleigh. But I
could merely change the stem to gain a position such as the Ghost. I
personally don't give much credit to the aerodynamics of a frame.


Gearing and such are a different matter but brakes are safety-relevant.
I wouldn't want to compromise there.


Think about this Joerg - if he didn't bottom out the lever wouldn't he pull harder? As for your opinions on safety I can understand your position after seeing how much weight you carry.
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  #242  
Old October 31st 17, 03:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 3,345
Default Why do some forks and frames have brake rotor size limits?

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 2:38:53 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-29 09:13, wrote:
On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 6:13:58 PM UTC-7, Ralph Barone wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 09:32:04 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-10-27 09:25, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/27/2017 9:58 AM, Joerg wrote:

Finally after many decades the bicycle industry woke up and
adopted what the automotive guys had all along, disc
brakes. Why should I accept an inferior brake system on a
new bike when there is a much better one?

sigh There are advantages and disadvantages to this
equipment choice, just as with other equipment choices. The
disadvantages of discs have been discussed. If they don't
matter or apply to you, fine; but they matter to others.


Many others just don't know any better. I have witnessed
several people riding a bike with hydraulic disc brakes for the
first time and the reaction was usually "WHOA!". Same with me,
it almost sent me over the bar.


But I'll note that you're currently in a project to increase
your disc's diameter from something like 160mm or 180mm up to
200mm or more. You seem to feel bigger diameter is better.


Because bigger is better here.


Well, even "better," why not go up to roughly 622mm? That's
what lots of us prefer, with cable actuation.


The disadvantages have been discussed ad nauseam. A rim brake
is not a disc brake. Not even close.

Care to explain the mechanical difference? I mean a rotating
surface and two friction pads that are tightened against it....
-- Cheers,

John B.

As far as I can tell, the differences between a rim brake and a 622
mm disk a

1) The disk doesn't have to provide tire clearance, so the pads can
sit closer, facilitating higher mechanical advantage.

2) The disk is not connected to the rim, so it doesn't bend and
warp when you hit a pothole. Again, the pads can sit closer and
have higher MA.

3) The disk doesn't thermally couple to the tire, so no blowouts on
long descents.

4) The disk is solid, so there's less flexing when you squeeze it
with the pads.


1) there is no such thing as a 622 mm disk. And there would be
insufficient fork clearance on any bike including cross bikes.

2) While the disk is not attached to the rim what gives you the idea
that the spokes stretch or bend? Especially modern wheels are
virtually a rigid structure.


With bike disc brakes? They do stretch, big time. When I brake really
hard on the MTB, shift down and then muscle up a hill you can hear the
spokes going KENG, KEINGGG, POCK, TO-TO-TOCK. Probably comes from the
points where they cross.


3) And you can see disks distort when one pad wears out which is
pretty rapidly.



One pad? That can only happen on mechanical disc brakes which are
designed cheaply. Hydraulic disc brakes have calipers with two or four
pistons, not just one. In automotive there are older ones with just one
but then the whole caliper floats on sideways rails.


... Deep grooves are worn into the disk pretty rapidly in
these cases. There is simply insufficient room for a deep enough pad
to get reasonable wear characteristics.


Mine wear almost perfectly in a uniform fashion.


4) The disks aren't solid anymore. They are drilled and grooved and
the inside diameter is reduced to the usable minimum. The carriers
are aluminum and it is possible to actually melt the carrier on a
racer.


Most regular rotors don't have aluminum spiders. That that do take a
while for the heat to cross the rivets.


As everything else there are advantages and disadvantages but the
fact remains that almost all of the advantages are over-ridden by the
fact that they are nothing more than marketing.


What, disc brakes are just marketing? My opinon is the complete
opposite. There are stretches of trail I would walk instead of ride if I
didn't have hydraulic disc brakes. They have saved the bacon more than
once. The last incident was a big fat rattlesnake. The MTB came to a
halt 3ft from it. 2ft would probably not have been enough to avoid a
strike and in the boonies without cell coverage that can become a problem..


One thing I have noticed is an implacable fear of snakes in most people. Rattlesnakes aren't offensive, they are defensive. You need only keep clear enough that they do not feel threatened and they will not strike. They are well aware that having injected venom into something they are relatively helpless for a day or two while their glands recharge.

I have continually said that disk brakes on a full suspension are probably useful but on a road bike they are nothing more than a sales gimmick.

  #243  
Old October 31st 17, 03:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 3,345
Default Why do some forks and frames have brake rotor size limits?

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 3:40:30 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-30 15:10, Doug Landau wrote:
On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 2:16:43 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-30 14:04, Doug Landau wrote:
On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 1:58:51 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-30 13:17, Doug Landau wrote:
On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 9:39:55 AM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote:
On 2017-10-29 12:57, wrote:
On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 10:02:12 AM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote:
On 2017-10-29 09:45,
wrote:
On Saturday, October 28, 2017 at 8:09:18 AM UTC-7,
Joerg wrote:

And grandpa has driven his cars without safety
belts yet survived ...

For people who do not shy away from unpaved roads
or use a lot of singletrack and ride in the rain
there is a much more extreme issue: Wet mud.

There is NO brake the is proof against wet mud. In
fact it is perhaps worse on a disk since the
additional pressure of the pads can turn the silicon
present in most muds into cutting instruments that on
rim brakes cuts into the rubber show rather than the
hard and thin disk pad.


Actually, no. I've had mud literally dripping from the
calipers which had become barely recognizable brownish
blobs. The only thing that happens is that they make an
awful grinding noise just like muddy rim brakes do.
With the two major differences that they still come on
full force immediately and that this grinding does not
eat up aluminum. Aluminum as one of the braking
surfaces plain does not make any sense, certainly not
in a muddy environment.

A downside of bicycle disc brakes is that in contrast
to most motor vehicles the rotors have "vent holes" and
weight weenie spiders. This results in rather fast
heat-up and in "brake mousse" when you plow through
thick vegetation on an overgrown trail. Mashed
star-thistle and other weeds get shredded and a sort of
pulp develops which cakes up in the holes of the rotor.
It doesn't diminish the brake force but lets of a bad
stench. One of the reasons why I carry a Swiss Army
knife in a pocket. Not in a pannier, so I can whip it
out in seconds. This also helps in poking out the giant
mud clump that forms behind the BB and can prevent the
rear wheel from turning.

Joerg - that additional noise is wear.


Sure. However, the rotors last thousands of miles, cost
around $20 and take only minutes to change. The pads cost
$2/pair for ceramic-based material (like motorcycles have)
and last around 1000mi depending on turf and weather. That
is way more hassle than with a motor vehicle but way less
hassle than swapping out a shot rim.

I started riding again in fall 2013, using an older model
MTB with almost zero miles on it. By the end of 2013 it had
around 1000mi on it and the front rim looks horrible.

The problem in our area is this: Mud contains granules of
decomposed granite. Rubber pads need water diverter grooves
and the granules lodge in these grooves. They also pierce
the rubber itself and lodge in there. When pulling the
lever that lets of a horrid grinding noise. Coming down a
hill you have to keep the brake engaged and you can
literally hear the rim being tortured all the way to the
bottom of the hill. On flat surfaces you have to stop and
pry out the granules. On a rainy day that means stopping
every few miles. I stand by my opinion that rim brakes are
inadequate for any serious MTB riding.

That is the reason to use Kool-stop Salmons. The compound
will not let granules lodge.


So then why does it on my road bike? I use Koolstop up front,
black and salmon. Gravel flakes embed in both when I travel
gravel roads or unpaved sections during soggy weather. Plus
they have grooves which is where they mostly embed:

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/images/brk14.jpg

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Take a pic next time until then we don't believe it


We? Are you now spokesman for the whole NG? Was there a party
convention with flags and brass band that I missed?


Yes. The election that decided this NG's creation.



Ah, a Chinese style coronation :-)


... Now quit yer
whining and take the goddam pic.



Can you tell me how when the weather is bone dry for months?


... This will be of interest to many
here. The salmon koolstops and their resistance to embedding rocks
are part of the lore of this group, and salmons are popular out of
proportion here.



Maybe there are versions with li'l gremlins in the grooves that shovel
all the dirt out that gets in. Mine don't have those gremlins.


... Now quit complaining about a little effort to do
your part, and show us pics of granules embedded in your salmon.


See above. And it better rain hard soon because my black/salmon
Koolstops are very close to worn down and I certainly will not replace
them with new Koolstops. They wanted $17/pair for the MTB version last
time I looked. Not going to happen. IME Clarks work just as well, last
as long and cost only $4/pair.

In terms of grinding after mud exposure I found there was hardly any
difference between Koolstops and Clarks.


My Campy brake pads appear to be perfectly smooth. Do they need grooves to work properly?
  #244  
Old October 31st 17, 03:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Radey Shouman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,747
Default Why do some forks and frames have brake rotor size limits?

John B. writes:

On Mon, 30 Oct 2017 22:52:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 10/30/2017 10:04 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2017 07:25:14 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

You rarely have to worry someone is actually going to run you
over. After all if might get blood on their car that they'd have
to wash off. But the continuous threats are tiring. When I get
back from a long city ride - say my home down to Palo Alto along
Hesperian then back again - some 50 miles - I will be threatened
at least two dozen times with cars trying to nudge me off the
road. Even with open lanes they could easily pass in. Another
thing is that you will be riding along and a car will come up
behind you fast, swerve around you and turn directly into a
driveway that causes you to slam on the brakes. Usually a store or
something.

I can only say that the U.S. must be different. I've ridden in Japan,
Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand and have never, repeat
NEVER, had anyone threaten me, either by word or action. I also rode
in New Hampshire and Southern California, but that was a long time ago
and I can't be sure but I certainly don't remember any acts that were
threatening.


I can only say that other parts of the U.S. must be different, because
what Tom describes almost never happens to me. Although my "other parts
of the U.S." statement needs some modification, since I've ridden all
the way across it, and ridden at least a little in 47 states so far.

The last irritating incident that happened to me was three weeks ago, on
a 50+ mile ride. Ohio has a new law requiring three feet passing
clearance. One car passed closer than that when there was plenty of room
to go around. But as someone said, I probably shouldn't attribute to
malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.

If the police were to ticket these people the state would never
again have to raise taxes. And it would have the side effect of
increasing road safety. But the drivers would not stand for it.

Locally one of the people who was caught by a red light camera
wrote a letter to the editor of the local paper. He was outraged
that they were using cameras to record miscreants. There were a
dozen follow-ups by others agreeing with him and not ONE comment
to the contrary.


In our area, the camera issue was speeding, not red lights. Yes, there
were online complaints about the fact that the cops were giving tickets
for being 13 mph over the 50 mph limit on the city-center freeway. But
here, to counter the over-privileged bitching, there were several
individuals posting "Don't be stupid, just drive slower." I was one of
those. I mentioned that the time saved by speeding had to be less than
three minutes.


In W. Australia, and probably the rest of the country, they had "speed
Cameras" which were mounted on portable tripods along roads ranging
from city streets to "way out in the country". I was told by my mate,
who's daughter was employed by the Perth Police in a clerical
position, that these cameras communicated with the police in some
manner and transmitted data on speeding cars which the police computer
turned into a speeding ticket which was mailed to your house.

The attitude seemed to be "stay under the speed limit" rather then
"I'm being persecuted".

But the U.S. attitude, which admittedly I only see posted in Internet
articles, about some sort of leeway on obeying laws seems odd. If it
is O.K. to drive 15 mph over the posted limit then why a lower posted
limit. Why not simply a posted 65 mph limit?


The federalization of speed limits had something to do with this
attitude. Back in the 70s the federal government mandated a nationwide
55 mph speed limit that had little support from state or local
governments. I recall an "unofficial" speed limit where I lived of
about 70 mph -- if you didn't drive faster than that on the highway you
hardly ever got a ticket, even if the state police were right behind
you.

Since then the highway speed limits have increased, but the feds still
cap them based on the local population density, more or less.

One wonders, is it O.K. to steal if it is only a little? Or even
commit murder... in a small way?
--
Cheers,

John B.


--
  #245  
Old October 31st 17, 03:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Why do some forks and frames have brake rotor size limits?

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 3:53:11 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-29 17:09, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2017 12:02 PM, wrote:
On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 6:04:58 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/27/2017 8:42 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 08:06:33 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Friday, October 27, 2017 at 1:24:49 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 13:37:00 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Joerg writes:

On 2017-10-24 17:21, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2017 11:47:12 -0700, Joerg

wrote:

[ ... ]

The reason can be summed up in one word: Rain :-)

But last Sunday I started out my "weekend" ride in the rain. It
had
been raining nearly all night and the roads had a lot of water
on them
- note we have been having floods here in Bangkok lately - but it
appeared that the rain was ending so off I went.

Unfortunately my weather forecasting facility wasn't working
very well
and I rode 20 Km of a 30 Km ride in light rain and flooded
roads in
many places. I was splashing through water in some places and cars
were splashing through (and splashing me) in others.

Of course, Sunday is much lighter traffic then on work days but
still,
Bangkok is rated as one of the cities with the most chaotic
traffic
in the world, and I did have to stop suddenly several time, on
flooded
roads with wet wheels and brakes.

My brakes worked just as they do in the dry. Back brake stops me
somewhat slowly and front brake stops rather suddenly, both brakes
together provides best stopping. No long wait after grabbing a
brake
lever although I did think of you with your stopping problems
and I
have the feeling that the brake lever pressure might be a tiny bit
more to stop in the rain but if it was it was so little that it
couldn't be quantified.

But of course I am using quality brake pads. Why it costs me
US$12.12
a wheel just for pads alone.... but they do last a year or more.


It seems Californian rain and Thai rain aren't the same. When it
rains
heavily and I have to do a surprise emergency stop after not having
used the brakes for a while there is 1-2sec of nada, absolutely
nothing. It makes no difference whatsoever whether I use $17
high-falutin Koolstop rain-rated pads or $4 Clarks pads. The
experience of other riders around here and in this NG is similar.

I don't understand the difference myself. When it's really raining,
meaning there's a continuous film of water on the road and a rooster
tail shooting forward off the front tire, I ride like a little
old lady,
because of the delay in braking. Especially when it's dark, and
leaves
and other blown down crap cover the road.

I suspect that may be the secret. I've never been "doored", perhaps
because if I have to ride past a line of parked cars where a door
might be opened I either slow down or ride further enough away that a
door wouldn't hit me.

Here the bike lane can be so narrow that the car door on a two-door
totally covers the lane and there's no place to dodge because
passing cars will spot that and not let you out.

If the choice is to run into a car door or be run over by a car then I
think I'd get off and walk.

In practice, at least in my experience, the actual choice is between the
_risk_ of getting hit by an opening door, and the _risk_ of a
motorist
deliberately running me over from behind.

In my experience, the latter risk is almost zero. Consider, we're almost
certainly talking about a place where there are witnesses, because the
situation requires people parking, getting out of their cars, opposing
traffic that would prevent the guy behind from changing lanes, etc.
There just aren't that many psychopaths who would risk prison terms by
deliberately running you over, especially because it would slow them
down.

On the other hand, the person doing the dooring doesn't have to be a
psychopath. He just has to be inattentive. There are lots and lots of
those people.

Now, for corroboration: I have definitely had situations where a door
popped open, and I would have been doored if I had been riding within
reach. But while I've occasionally (but rarely) had motorists honk or
yell when I claim a lane, I've never had one run me over.

And let's remember that dooring can be fatal. If the door snags your
right handlebar, the bike whips to the right and you are instantaneously
thrown to the left, directly into the path of the cars you were so
worried about.

Where would these witnesses come from? The cars that simply continued
driving?


I don't know, Tom, but let me repeat: I've had some motorists act
displeased when I've ridden at lane center. I've never had one run me
over. I've never known another cyclist who had that happen.


I knew two personally who have been hit from behind. They survived but
one lost a kidney and the other had a ruptured spleen. Then there was
the woman here who got rear-ended in the right lane at high speed. Died.
Numerous others down in the valley, including an off-duty police officer
who was catapulted off his road bike and died.


It doesn't pay to be timid. Man up.


Why take the risk when there are alternatives such as this?

https://goo.gl/maps/XJk1gMRC2eA2

A bike lane plus segregated bike path plus bicycle bridge, all
seamlessly connecting to the Folsom bike path system and the American
River bike trail. Plus a lot of parks. That area is a cyclists paradise.
During rush hour it gets quite busy.


So what you're saying is that the percentage of bicyclists deaths can be changed from nearly nothing to nothing?
  #246  
Old October 31st 17, 03:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Why do some forks and frames have brake rotor size limits?

On 10/30/2017 10:37 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2017 22:52:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 10/30/2017 10:04 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2017 07:25:14 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

You rarely have to worry someone is actually going to run you over. After all if might get blood on their car that they'd have to wash off. But the continuous threats are tiring. When I get back from a long city ride - say my home down to Palo Alto along Hesperian then back again - some 50 miles - I will be threatened at least two dozen times with cars trying to nudge me off the road. Even with open lanes they could easily pass in. Another thing is that you will be riding along and a car will come up behind you fast, swerve around you and turn directly into a driveway that causes you to slam on the brakes. Usually a store or something.

I can only say that the U.S. must be different. I've ridden in Japan,
Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand and have never, repeat
NEVER, had anyone threaten me, either by word or action. I also rode
in New Hampshire and Southern California, but that was a long time ago
and I can't be sure but I certainly don't remember any acts that were
threatening.


I can only say that other parts of the U.S. must be different, because
what Tom describes almost never happens to me. Although my "other parts
of the U.S." statement needs some modification, since I've ridden all
the way across it, and ridden at least a little in 47 states so far.

The last irritating incident that happened to me was three weeks ago, on
a 50+ mile ride. Ohio has a new law requiring three feet passing
clearance. One car passed closer than that when there was plenty of room
to go around. But as someone said, I probably shouldn't attribute to
malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.

If the police were to ticket these people the state would never again have to raise taxes. And it would have the side effect of increasing road safety. But the drivers would not stand for it.

Locally one of the people who was caught by a red light camera wrote a letter to the editor of the local paper. He was outraged that they were using cameras to record miscreants. There were a dozen follow-ups by others agreeing with him and not ONE comment to the contrary.


In our area, the camera issue was speeding, not red lights. Yes, there
were online complaints about the fact that the cops were giving tickets
for being 13 mph over the 50 mph limit on the city-center freeway. But
here, to counter the over-privileged bitching, there were several
individuals posting "Don't be stupid, just drive slower." I was one of
those. I mentioned that the time saved by speeding had to be less than
three minutes.


In W. Australia, and probably the rest of the country, they had "speed
Cameras" which were mounted on portable tripods along roads ranging
from city streets to "way out in the country". I was told by my mate,
who's daughter was employed by the Perth Police in a clerical
position, that these cameras communicated with the police in some
manner and transmitted data on speeding cars which the police computer
turned into a speeding ticket which was mailed to your house.

The attitude seemed to be "stay under the speed limit" rather then
"I'm being persecuted".

But the U.S. attitude, which admittedly I only see posted in Internet
articles, about some sort of leeway on obeying laws seems odd. If it
is O.K. to drive 15 mph over the posted limit then why a lower posted
limit. Why not simply a posted 65 mph limit?

One wonders, is it O.K. to steal if it is only a little? Or even
commit murder... in a small way?




In the Land of the At One Time Free and the Now Not So
Brave, we select the best citizens for public office:

https://710wor.iheart.com/featured/m...eeding-ticket/

Exemplary.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #247  
Old October 31st 17, 03:31 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default Why do some forks and frames have brake rotor size limits?

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 7:05:01 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2017 07:25:14 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 8:47:26 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 22:59:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 10/29/2017 10:59 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-28 17:18, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 08:09:28 -0700, Joerg


Well, since you mentioned it. My two grandfathers, neither of whom
ever had a road accident. One died at 92 and the other at 87. My
father never had a road accident although he did get a speeding ticket
once, died at 87. My mother had one "accident", a guy ran a red light
and tee-boned her car, no speeding tickets, died at 86. All deaths
were considered "natural".

Do you really believe that safety belts would have benefited them?


Counting on luck alone is not smart. The father of a friend's wife died
from the consequences of a minor fender bender at an intersection
because he didn't wear a belt. That accident was 100% survivable. Or
would have been ...

I'd be interested to see the difference in one's lifetime odds of dying
in a traffic crash wearing seatbelts vs. not wearing them. I suspect the
difference isn't tremendous, since most people die of other things anyway.

Having said that: I do buckle up each time I ride or drive. That's
mostly because there is some benefit, and zero detriment.

However, I willingly ride in my friend's Model A that has no belts. When
our daughter got married, they rode from the wedding to the reception in
an elegant antique car with no belts, and nobody worried about the
possible tragedy of a wedding day fatality.

And if I, as a passenger, have to take my seatbelt off to reach
something in the back seat, remove a jacket or whatever, I don't hesitate.

One of the problems is that there are significant differences between
age groups and even sex. Women driver have about 1 fatality per 9,328
licensed female drivers. Males have 1/3847. I'm sure that teenage
drives are even higher. I also suspect that the driver of a 1927 Model
A probably worries a lot about anyone even getting close to his
fenders :-)

I've also wondered what the effect of overall insurance coverage is.
Here, if you ding someone's fender you park, call the insurance
company and they send a guy out on a motorcycle. The insurance guy
checks the policies, checks the vehicle identification and that is it.
The guy with the ding takes his car to the shop and they fix it and
send the bill to the insurance company.


You rarely have to worry someone is actually going to run you over. After all if might get blood on their car that they'd have to wash off. But the continuous threats are tiring. When I get back from a long city ride - say my home down to Palo Alto along Hesperian then back again - some 50 miles - I will be threatened at least two dozen times with cars trying to nudge me off the road. Even with open lanes they could easily pass in. Another thing is that you will be riding along and a car will come up behind you fast, swerve around you and turn directly into a driveway that causes you to slam on the brakes. Usually a store or something.

I can only say that the U.S. must be different. I've ridden in Japan,
Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand and have never, repeat
NEVER, had anyone threaten me, either by word or action. I also rode
in New Hampshire and Southern California, but that was a long time ago
and I can't be sure but I certainly don't remember any acts that were
threatening.

If the police were to ticket these people the state would never again have to raise taxes. And it would have the side effect of increasing road safety. But the drivers would not stand for it.

Locally one of the people who was caught by a red light camera wrote a letter to the editor of the local paper. He was outraged that they were using cameras to record miscreants. There were a dozen follow-ups by others agreeing with him and not ONE comment to the contrary.


Yet another indication of the change in the U.S. attitude toward law
and order. As I wrote before, in years gone by if a guy got caught
speeding he'd say something like, "Damn! I got caught. Got to go pay
the fine Monday." Now you get a tirade like "Jeeze Cri! I was only
doing 15 mph over the limit, and school was already out. Why is that
cop picking on me?"


Remember when in Holland the bicycle used to be king of the road? Now I'm told that it is the car and the bicycles have the same problems as the US.
  #248  
Old October 31st 17, 03:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default Why do some forks and frames have brake rotor size limits?

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 7:11:23 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

I think I'd also have to ask, "how many if these people were in
violation of the traffic code when they were injured?"

I was thinking back over the motorcyclists I've known who were injured
riding their bikes and every one was violating the traffic code.

I have to wonder, if rather then a seat belt law they had made a "obey
the law" law what would have been the outcome?


And this is all I am asking as well. We HAVE the laws on the books but the police will NOT enforce driving laws. And we have almost every car commercial advertising how fast their cars are. Exactly what effect do you think this has on young drivers?

In the last five years, and particularly in the last two years, I've seen more people purposely run red lights at high speed than ever before. And NOT trying to get through a yellow and missing it - purposely going through a red light at high speed.
  #249  
Old October 31st 17, 03:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default Why do some forks and frames have brake rotor size limits?

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 8:14:01 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/30/2017 6:53 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-29 17:09, Frank Krygowski wrote:


... let me repeat: I've had some motorists act
displeased when I've ridden at lane center. I've never had one run me
over. I've never known another cyclist who had that happen.


I knew two personally who have been hit from behind. They survived but
one lost a kidney and the other had a ruptured spleen. Then there was
the woman here who got rear-ended in the right lane at high speed. Died..
Numerous others down in the valley, including an off-duty police officer
who was catapulted off his road bike and died.


And I can double check my list, but I think it's now up to nine friends
who were killed in motor vehicle accidents. Zero on bicycles. We can
trade anecdotes (and you frequently do) but I give more credence to
unbiased data.

It doesn't pay to be timid. Man up.


Why take the risk when there are alternatives such as this?

https://goo.gl/maps/XJk1gMRC2eA2


Here's why I "take the risk," Joerg. First, the risk of being hit while
riding lane center is extremely low. Most of those hit that way seem to
be unlit cyclists riding at night, probably drunk or nearly so. Data's a
bit soft, but that does seem to be what it shows.

But more important: If I waited for "alternatives" such as the one you
show to be built, I would have missed about 45 years of enthusiastic
adult riding. I'd have missed riding in about a dozen different
countries, 47 states and hundreds of different towns and cities. I
wouldn't have been able to ride my bike to work at four different jobs.
I'd have missed wonderful vacations with my family, and I'd have missed
making at least a hundred good cycling friends.

I know many people have bought the "Danger! Danger!" mantra and never
leave the nice, safe (and horridly boring) bike path. I chose instead to
learn to be competent on ordinary roads. And I'm damned glad I did.


We pretty much agree with this. I don't have to worry any more about riding a bike around dangerous drivers than I would driving a car. But that is a clear and present danger because the police no longer enforce driving laws. Yesterday I was driving up the street and some woman pulls a large SUV out of her driveway directly in front of me forcing me to slam the brakes on. It is common for women especially to pull out of parking lots or other driveways looking to the right when traffic comes from the left.
  #250  
Old October 31st 17, 04:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Default Why do some forks and frames have brake rotor size limits?

On 10/31/2017 10:29 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/30/2017 10:37 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2017 22:52:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 10/30/2017 10:04 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2017 07:25:14 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

You rarely have to worry someone is actually going to run you over.
After all if might get blood on their car that they'd have to wash
off. But the continuous threats are tiring. When I get back from a
long city ride - say my home down to Palo Alto along Hesperian then
back again - some 50 miles - I will be threatened at least two
dozen times with cars trying to nudge me off the road. Even with
open lanes they could easily pass in. Another thing is that you
will be riding along and a car will come up behind you fast, swerve
around you and turn directly into a driveway that causes you to
slam on the brakes. Usually a store or something.

I can only say that the U.S. must be different. I've ridden in Japan,
Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand and have never, repeat
NEVER, had anyone threaten me, either by word or action. I also rode
in New Hampshire and Southern California, but that was a long time ago
and I can't be sure but I certainly don't remember any acts that were
threatening.

I can only say that other parts of the U.S. must be different, because
what Tom describes almost never happens to me. Although my "other parts
of the U.S." statement needs some modification, since I've ridden all
the way across it, and ridden at least a little in 47 states so far.

The last irritating incident that happened to me was three weeks ago, on
a 50+ mile ride. Ohio has a new law requiring three feet passing
clearance. One car passed closer than that when there was plenty of room
to go around. But as someone said, I probably shouldn't attribute to
malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.

If the police were to ticket these people the state would never
again have to raise taxes. And it would have the side effect of
increasing road safety. But the drivers would not stand for it.

Locally one of the people who was caught by a red light camera
wrote a letter to the editor of the local paper. He was outraged
that they were using cameras to record miscreants. There were a
dozen follow-ups by others agreeing with him and not ONE comment to
the contrary.

In our area, the camera issue was speeding, not red lights. Yes, there
were online complaints about the fact that the cops were giving tickets
for being 13 mph over the 50 mph limit on the city-center freeway. But
here, to counter the over-privileged bitching, there were several
individuals posting "Don't be stupid, just drive slower." I was one of
those. I mentioned that the time saved by speeding had to be less than
three minutes.


In W. Australia, and probably the rest of the country, they had "speed
Cameras" which were mounted on portable tripods along roads ranging
from city streets to "way out in the country". I was told by my mate,
who's daughter was employed by the Perth Police in a clerical
position, that these cameras communicated with the police in some
manner and transmitted data on speeding cars which the police computer
turned into a speeding ticket which was mailed to your house.

The attitude seemed to be "stay under the speed limit" rather then
"I'm being persecuted".

But the U.S. attitude, which admittedly I only see posted in Internet
articles, about some sort of leeway on obeying laws seems odd. If it
is O.K. to drive 15 mph over the posted limit then why a lower posted
limit. Why not simply a posted 65 mph limit?

One wonders, is it O.K. to steal if it is only a little?Â* Or even
commit murder... in a small way?




In the Land of the At One Time Free and the Now Not So Brave, we select
the best citizens for public office:

https://710wor.iheart.com/featured/m...eeding-ticket/


Exemplary.


Funny thing - around here, it was a Republican rather than a Democrat,
and it was for drunk driving instead of speeding. No video, though, AFAIK.


--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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