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Max HR vs Lactate Threshold
All this talk about Max HR, the worthlessness of formulas and the
difficulty and pain involved in actually trying to measure it. Why not just use the LT? I believe, by definition, it is the average heart rate during a 1 hour time trial or race in which the person is actually trying his/her hardest. Plus, if one is inclined to actually measure it through blood work, there are places it can be done for a fairly moderate price without agony. But again, I believe it is actually defined on the basis of average HR as above. I believe the various training zones and plans can be developed on the basis of LT rather than max HR, no? |
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#2
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Max HR vs Lactate Threshold
On Apr 15, 7:09*pm, Camilo wrote:
All this talk about Max HR, the worthlessness of formulas and the difficulty and pain involved in actually trying to measure it. Why not just use the LT? *I believe, by definition, it is the average heart rate during a 1 hour time trial or race in which the person is actually trying his/her hardest. *Plus, if one is inclined to actually measure it through blood work, there are places it can be done for a fairly moderate price without agony. *But again, I believe it is actually defined on the basis of average HR as above. I believe the various training zones and plans can be developed on the basis of LT rather than max HR, no? LT is the maximum effort level that can be maintained without a continous buildup of lactate. That is to say lactic acid is not produced any faster than it can be broken down, so the blood lactate level remains constant. Meausing LT is WAY harder to do than determining max HR, plus LT changes with training, and HR is only a secondary way to track LT. As far as the accuracy of max HR guidlines (for those afraid to just ride hard to see what their max HR is), I have only ever heard of those underestimating folk's max HR's. Some guys I ride with have have max HR's around 200 when the 220-age says it should be 185 or so. And similar, while most are pretty close. But I don't know of anyone I ride with how has a max HR significantly below the 220-age guide. That means that by using 220-age you may be short-changing yourself, but unlikely over extending yourself. Joseph |
#3
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Max HR vs Lactate Threshold
I bought a Cateye HR watch for keeping an eye on my health riding a
29er in the rockies not for training. For recreational and commuting training I used Carmichael/Armstrong's training manual to boost LT "in the areas I was weak in." EG, standing sprints from stop. C/A know what that's about and the manual exercises work right off. Max heart rate? I'm 62 - who needs max heart rate ? My interest is LT leading to max CUMULATIVE heart rate. I am intrigued by Kunich's statement "there's no difference between long and short distances ridden slowly or quickly" paraphrazing off course in that my heart rate, and my weight, does not rise very far riding or running hard to a level where understanding what my empirical HR is now or shall be quantified with a Cateye HR. That kinda loops back to LT where extending the LT is ok after establishing an average comfortable and quickly recoverable from, HR. Touring training, exercise but not overtrain. Racers may find this dumb. In a cold spring, there are more than a few trained MLB types over extended despite years of experience, the cycle doctor, pistol pete. . . The list is extensive and snot sneerabble. asking a question not taking a position: is max or average max heart rate directly related to LT ? Are HR trainees saying ignore stretching LT and push on to Max HR where Max HR blood flow provides the energy source for stretching LT? |
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Max HR vs Lactate Threshold
On Apr 15, 10:40*pm, datakoll wrote:
I bought a Cateye HR watch for keeping an eye on my health riding a 29er in the rockies not for training. For recreational and commuting training I used Carmichael/Armstrong's training manual to boost LT "in the areas I was weak in." EG, standing sprints from stop. C/A know what that's about and the manual exercises work right off. Max heart rate? I'm 62 - who needs max heart rate ? My interest is LT leading to max CUMULATIVE heart rate. I am intrigued by Kunich's statement "there's no difference between long and short distances ridden slowly or quickly" paraphrazing off course in that my heart rate, and my weight, does not rise very far riding or running hard to a level where understanding what my empirical HR *is now or shall be quantified with a Cateye HR. That kinda loops back to LT where extending the LT is ok after establishing an average comfortable and quickly recoverable *from, HR. Touring training, exercise but not overtrain. Racers may find this dumb. In a cold spring, there are more than a few trained MLB types over extended despite years of experience, the cycle doctor, pistol pete. . . The list is extensive and snot sneerabble. asking a question not taking a position: is max or average max heart rate directly related to LT ? Are HR trainees saying ignore stretching LT and push on to Max HR where Max HR blood flow provides the energy source for stretching LT? LT has essentially nothing to do with HR, max or otherwise. HR can be a useful way to pace to try to hold effort levels at LT, but there are so many variables like temperature, stress, drift, etc that you have to adjust for these. And to do so requires enough guessing that it almost doesn't make sense anymore. LT is governed mostly by things happening in the muslces. A high LT is from having muscles that can make the most out of the oxygen delivered to them, and mucles that can break down lactate fast. Joseph |
#5
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Max HR vs Lactate Threshold
what is "normal" for an upper exercise limit? muscles giving out first, or heart rate topping out as a limit? |
#6
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Max HR vs Lactate Threshold
datakoll wrote:
what is "normal" for an upper exercise limit? muscles giving out first, or heart rate topping out as a limit? I think it depends on conditions and one's conditioning. Here's my experience: In my 20's I was a fairly strong cyclist. Moved from sea level to 6000 feet. First several months, legs felt fine, but I want to puke with moderately hard /apparent/ exertion. That is, the brain says "you can ride much faster than this" and the lungs say "Oh Sh*t". Clearly lungs/heart or cardiovascular system in general was giving out first. Fifteen months of altitude training later, I flew back to sea level for an "event" ride. On the ride, it was nearly impossible to get out of breath, but if I pushed (too) hard, my legs felt like jelly. Here the muscles were giving out first. I think this is why elite coaches say "sleep high, train low" so you can stress both systems (cardio and muscles) separately to their limits. Mark J. (back to sea level decades later) |
#7
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Max HR vs Lactate Threshold
datakoll writes:
asking a question not taking a position: is max or average max heart rate directly related to LT ? Are HR trainees saying ignore stretching LT and push on to Max HR where Max HR blood flow provides the energy source for stretching LT? Might be easier to understand if you made it more explicit that you are referring to HR at LT, because comparing a specific concentration of lactate in blood to a heart rate is like comparing appl^Wpowerbars to gatorade. My impression is that these days most people serious about exercise physiology do indeed recommend training zones based on the LT HR rather than max HR, exactly because the distance between the two is quite variable individually (and even in the same individual at different states of training), and the main point of training zones is to control how much anaerobic (if at all) an exercise is supposed to be. The advantage of max HR based zones is that max HR is easy to measure and even easier to estimate semi-reliably and so it is much easier to recommend some general training zones based on that, no lab work needed... |
#8
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Max HR vs Lactate Threshold
On Apr 16, 1:41*am, datakoll wrote:
what is "normal" for an upper exercise limit? muscles giving out first, or heart rate topping out as a limit? A little of both, and as age increases, HR can more often become the limiting factor. And training changes the balance too. Riding along at a steady easy level, HR is low and is pumping some amount of blood and thus delivering some amount of oxygen to the working muscles. The muscles are able to use this oxygen to do work. But some of the muscles do not get all the oxygen they need to do the work asked of them. So they work anaerobically and generate lactate. This is only a small amount, and the body is able to easily deal with this lactate before it builds up. At a higher intensisty (more power) level, more oxygen is needed, so the HR picks up to deliver more oxygen. But still not all the muscles get all the oxygen they need, so they produce more lactate. If the amount of lactate produced can be used by the body so that the amount of lactate in the blood does not keep rising, the effort level is said to be below the LT. If more lactate is produced than can be disposed of, the level of lactate in the blood keeps rising, even though the effort level remains constant. This is above LT. This is not sustainable because eventually with high enough concentrations, the hydrogen ions released as part of the lactic acid creation interfere with the mucels ability to do work, and it cannot continue to produc ethe same power, so you slow down. You may have slowed down already, because unpleasantness ensues usually well befor ethis point. But LT isn't at max HR, and more work can be done (power generated) above LT, but just for a limited time. The body can still supply more ans use more oxygen to do work above LT, but it is inhibited from maintaining this level of output for very long. This is also different from peak power, which is more akin to brute strength and usually is at levels well above LT. Joseph |
#9
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Max HR vs Lactate Threshold
?
"The advantage of max HR based zones is that max HR is easy to measure and even easier to estimate semi-reliably and so it is much easier to recommend some general training zones based on that, no lab work needed... " athletes may not know what they're about ? yeah that sounds right. and from a distance with the new Cateye HR still inbox, MaxHR sounds a bit nutty. Cutting the straight at Road Atlanta was nutty... I am curious about cycling posture excerise and LT giving total body LT opposed to swimming posture exercise giving total body LT and effects on cycling effectiveness and effects on muscle specialization, not only for Boonen et al but in the general cycling population. Different strokes. shall get back to you on altitude. No problem hiking, but for me hiking isnot cycling LT. Your thought suggests the usual small errors leading to...restraint. "technical" means straight downhill 5 degrees from "sheer vertical wall" right? furrowed with perp ditches 3' deep x 1' wide |
#10
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Max HR vs Lactate Threshold
On Apr 16, 2:59*pm, datakoll wrote:
? "The advantage of max HR based zones is that max HR is easy to measure and even easier to estimate semi-reliably and so it is much easier to recommend some general training zones based on that, no lab work needed... " athletes may not know what they're about ? yeah that sounds right. and from a distance with the new Cateye HR still inbox, MaxHR sounds a bit nutty. Cutting the straight at Road Atlanta was nutty... I am curious about cycling posture excerise and LT giving total body LT opposed to swimming posture exercise giving total body LT and effects on cycling effectiveness and effects on muscle specialization, not only for Boonen et al but in the general cycling population. Different strokes. shall get back to you on altitude. No problem hiking, but for me hiking isnot cycling LT. Your thought suggests the usual small errors leading to...restraint. "technical" means straight downhill 5 degrees from "sheer vertical wall" right? furrowed with perp ditches 3' deep x 1' wide Check out: http://home.hia.no/%7Estephens/exphys.htm Joseph |
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