Police behaviour on January's Critical Mass, London

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:29:05 +0000, Tony Raven wrote:

Rob Morley wrote on 31/01/2007 13:15 +0100:
In article , Tony Raven
says...
Rob Morley wrote on 30/01/2007 19:07 +0100:
Saying where it will end isn't the same as planning a route or
appointing a leader.

Correct, its being a leader.


So if I arrange to meet someone at a certain place at a certain time am
I their leader, or am I just arranging to meet them?

No but if you set out to get a large group of people to congregate at a
certain place and time with a common objective you are.

See OED: "One who guides others in action or opinion"

The point wrt this thread, though is not about who is 'leading/organising' the
party, but who is 'leading/organising' the getting there.

You can't claim that because someone organises a party they are leading the
people en-route to that party which is what you _seem_ to be trying to do.

Well, you can, of course, but I think most people would disagree with your
interpretation of the word 'lead'.

On 31 Jan 2007 09:13:15 GMT, Mark Thompson wrote:
Creature wrote:
Tell me where you park your bike and I'll stick a leaflet on it
telling you where the next one will end. It'll be guesswork, but it'll
tell you.

Which further suggests that there are those that follow and those that
lead...

Well, that's not *quite* what I meant. I was aiming for something similar
to this joke:

An old man goes to his doctor to complain about his impotence. "Doctor, I
love my wife and I still desire her. But I can't perform."
"How old are you?" the doctor asks.
"I'm eighty."
"Eighty? You can't still perform at eighty. Even if you could, the
exertion would likely kill you!" exclaims the doctor.
"But my neighbour is eighty-five, and has a hot sixty-five year old wife,
and he says he still manages twice a day!"
"Well," says the doctor. "You can always say the same thing."

Anyone can make a leaflet, and anyone can make predictions. Hell, people
can even make plans. They're not necessarily (likely?) to be followed...


I fully understand the nature of CM, and the need for there to be 'no'
leaders or organisers, but the absolute denials of any kind of organisation
and insistance that the whole thing is completely spontaneous is really
quite amusing.

As far as I know, there is no organisation at all beyond the convention of
the date/time/place for the off. I'd imagine that if you were at the front
you would have some say in the direction it goes, but the ride has
divided and gone down at least two separate routes before...

--
Alex Pounds (Creature) .~. http://www.alexpounds.com/
/V\ http://www.ethicsgirls.com/
// \\
"Variables won't; Constants aren't" /( )\
^`~'^

Daniel Barlow wrote:

Claiming not to be a leader does not excuse you from the duties
of same if in fact a leader you are.

(And conversely, claiming to /be/ a leader does not give you the rights
of one if you aren't)

LOL rights & duties ???

neither give one the authority of a leader

the 'leader(s)' in CM are perhaps those spoken of by Sarkar, who
'hopes to minimize the exploitation in each era through the
development of a new type of leader, the sadvipra, one with a complete
and pure mind. The sadvipra exists in a context not of state or
individual, but of sama-j, or family: a selfless family on a
collective journey through life. Through such leadership, Sarkar
envisages a new society committed to gender coordination, self-reliant
cooperative economies, and prama-, a dynamic balance between physical,
mental and spiritual potentials.' REP :Structure, history and the
cycle

seen that video of an indian street on utube ?
http://www.tiny.cc/yxJj4
where are the leaders with all these rights & duties you talk of ?

Creature wrote:

I'd imagine that if you were at the front
you would have some say in the direction it goes,

indeed you would.

Do you have any ideas as to why there is such a hostility to CM in
URC?

u moma wrote on 31/01/2007 20:23 +0100:

the 'leader(s)' in CM are perhaps those spoken of by Sarkar, who
'hopes to minimize the exploitation in each era through the
development of a new type of leader, the sadvipra, one with a complete
and pure mind. The sadvipra exists in a context not of state or
individual, but of sama-j, or family: a selfless family on a
collective journey through life. Through such leadership, Sarkar
envisages a new society committed to gender coordination, self-reliant
cooperative economies, and prama-, a dynamic balance between physical,
mental and spiritual potentials.' REP :Structure, history and the
cycle

What does that mean in English?


--
Tony

"...has many omissions and contains much that is apocryphal, or at least
wildly inaccurate..."
Douglas Adams; The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

wrote in message
ps.com...
On 28 Jan, 19:53, Creature wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 15:31:04 +0000, Pyromancer wrote:
Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Creature
gently breathed:
I understood that the front of the mass was meant to obey traffic
signals,

Where does this idea come from - is it stated by the police?

The idea came from what I'd read about Critical Mass rides before
embarking on my first. .... If the ride is going to stop at red
lights, then that's fine by me - I just understood this to be a
significant change from the normal behaviour with the rides.

I have a dim and distant memory of legislation which says essentially
that a procession of many vehicles should behave as one long one
for the purposes of traffic signals - ie the head obeys, and the tail
follows. No source, no citation, just a vague and probably erroneous
memory.

You won't have a problem with a long procession of motor vehicles doing the
same, then, will you? the first ones go across on green, all the rest can
keep going across on red. )

Do you have any ideas as to why there is such a hostility to CM in
URC?

Where? There is a certain amount of hostility to some people on CM rides
that deliberately obstruct other traffic for no good reason, but that
hostility isn't aimed at CM itself.

ian henden wrote:
You won't have a problem with a long procession of motor vehicles doing the
same, then, will you? the first ones go across on green, all the rest can
keep going across on red. )

Yeah, that's the way most of them seem to drive around here as well :-(

--
Danny Colyer URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/
Reply address is valid, but that on my website is checked more often
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:34:12 +0000, u moma wrote:
Do you have any ideas as to why there is such a hostility to CM in
URC?

Nope. The anger that greeted my original post puzzled me a lot, but I
suspect it was because I presented it badly. I presumed people would be
familiar with the idea behind CM, along with its customs. Unfortunately
this was not the case, so my post (intended as a "What do you think of
this, and is it really a change from the norm?") was misinterpreted ("They
want to stop us going through red lights! How dare they suggest we obey
the law? Revolt!").

--
Alex Pounds (Creature) .~. http://www.alexpounds.com/
/V\ http://www.ethicsgirls.com/
// \\
"Variables won't; Constants aren't" /( )\
^`~'^

In article , Creature
says...
On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:34:12 +0000, u moma wrote:
Do you have any ideas as to why there is such a hostility to CM in
URC?

Nope. The anger that greeted my original post puzzled me a lot, but I
suspect it was because I presented it badly. I presumed people would be
familiar with the idea behind CM, along with its customs. Unfortunately
this was not the case, so my post (intended as a "What do you think of
this, and is it really a change from the norm?") was misinterpreted ("They
want to stop us going through red lights! How dare they suggest we obey
the law? Revolt!").


There is a perception that some of the participants don't do anything to
promote a positive view of cycling to the general public. The aim of
the rides is not to cause disruption or disobey the law, but there is
often a hooligan element attached to this sort of event, and also a
contingent of less clueful individuals (e.g. the ones riding without
lights when there were sure to be lots of police paying particular
attention to cyclists).