More on conspicuity

But as for close passes, frankly I can't remember ever being passed on
the highway close enough to frighten me, which is my personal
interpretation of a "close pass".

Incroyable

On 2017-03-23 09:58, Doc O'Leary wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that
John B. wrote:

Are Thai's just nicer people than N. Americans? I wonder.

I think it’s a mistake to attribute it to moral character prematurely.


True, but I still think John has got a point. I have met a lot of Thai
people and others from Southeast Asia in my life and the only time I
have experienced anyone being really angry was inside their spousal
relationship (but not worse than happens at times in any such relationship).


There are all sorts of other factors that might produce the difference
in behavior. How much driving is done by the general population? How
much biking? How wide are the roads compared to the vehicles? What
are the speed differences between the different vehicles? Is the
actual accident rate higher, or is it more a perception of danger?

I dislike a close pass as much as anyone, but I’m not going to assume
it happened because the driver is a jerk.


Sometimes they are. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
"his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
even have a driver license.


... Maybe they’re a safe driver
that simply has an excellent sense of their vehicle’s space. Maybe
they see that I am biking fast and straight, and think it’ll be
perfectly safe to go past me without much clearance.


Only to cause the cyclist to be destabilized a bit by the vortex effect
and being hit by the next car? Such behavior is stupid and dangerous.


... And, as
unnerving as it is, it *has* been safe 100% of the times it’s been
done to me (with just 1 time being so close my leg was brushed by
their side mirror, so I had to give them an earful, but no real harm
done).


I have testified as a witness in court in a case where a cyclist was
brutally pushed off the road and crashed into the ditch. Guess what, the
trucker got a slap on the wrist. Nada, nothing else. Justice? Phhht.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-03-23 09:29, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/23/2017 1:55 AM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 23:33:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

But I admit, it's possible such things vary from culture to culture.
As an example, I did some riding in Estonia (mostly Tallinn), and felt
that motorists were more aggressive than in the U.S. In several other
countries (e.g. France, Italy, Ireland) I thought they were more patient
than here.


Who knows.

In both Thailand and Indonesia I can't remember ever being harassed by
an automobile. Singapore is very law abiding and will give a bicycle
exactly what the law demands, and not an inch more. Which typifies the
countries.

If a number of people are queuing for a taxi for example. In both
Thailand and Indonesia it will be a sort of huddle with everyone
thinking about how to crowd in and be next. In Singapore it will be a
neat and orderly line and woe betide anyone that tries to crowd into
the middle of the line :-)

One friend of ours, of Italian heritage, was excited to accompany her
husband on a business trip / vacation to Europe. They visited Germany
and Italy.

She returned disappointed in Italy. As an example, she said in Germany,
people waiting for a bus queued up politely and entered the bus in
order. In Italy, they crowded around the bus stop and shoved their way
aboard.

I've heard of other cultural differences from friends traveling to other
countries, as well. I suppose it pays to observe and try to blend in.


A German once asked how it was possible that the phone in a phone booth
(anyone remember those?) rings and the operator asks for another 75
cents. "Well, the caller accidentally hung up too early and still owed
that amount" ... "What if he'd not pay and walk away?" ... "That just
does not happen, nobody would do that" ... "WHAT?"

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-23 09:58, Doc O'Leary wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that
John B. wrote:

Are Thai's just nicer people than N. Americans? I wonder.

I think it’s a mistake to attribute it to moral character prematurely.


True, but I still think John has got a point. I have met a lot of Thai
people and others from Southeast Asia in my life and the only time I
have experienced anyone being really angry was inside their spousal
relationship (but not worse than happens at times in any such relationship).


I'm not sure that including the bit about "spousal relationships" is
really confidence building as Thai doctors are the most skillful in
the world at penial reattachments?

There are all sorts of other factors that might produce the difference
in behavior. How much driving is done by the general population? How
much biking? How wide are the roads compared to the vehicles? What
are the speed differences between the different vehicles? Is the
actual accident rate higher, or is it more a perception of danger?

I dislike a close pass as much as anyone, but I’m not going to assume
it happened because the driver is a jerk.


Sometimes they are. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
"his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
even have a driver license.

But after all, wasn't it "His lane too"?

... Maybe they’re a safe driver
that simply has an excellent sense of their vehicle’s space. Maybe
they see that I am biking fast and straight, and think it’ll be
perfectly safe to go past me without much clearance.


Only to cause the cyclist to be destabilized a bit by the vortex effect
and being hit by the next car? Such behavior is stupid and dangerous.


... And, as
unnerving as it is, it *has* been safe 100% of the times it’s been
done to me (with just 1 time being so close my leg was brushed by
their side mirror, so I had to give them an earful, but no real harm
done).


I have testified as a witness in court in a case where a cyclist was
brutally pushed off the road and crashed into the ditch. Guess what, the
trucker got a slap on the wrist. Nada, nothing else. Justice? Phhht.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/24/2017 9:23 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg
wrote:


Sometimes they are [jerks]. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
"his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
even have a driver license.

But after all, wasn't it "His lane too"?

No.

I do remember, on one bike tour, having a low life multi-tattooed pickup
driver yell at me "Get out of my road." Our offense (there were three of
us riding together) was taking our place in a line of traffic moving at
about 10 mph.

I was not shy about telling him it was not "his" road. I think my, um,
lack of diplomacy shocked one of my touring companions.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 00:01:00 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/24/2017 9:23 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg
wrote:


Sometimes they are [jerks]. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
"his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
even have a driver license.

But after all, wasn't it "His lane too"?

No.

I do remember, on one bike tour, having a low life multi-tattooed pickup
driver yell at me "Get out of my road." Our offense (there were three of
us riding together) was taking our place in a line of traffic moving at
about 10 mph.

I was not shy about telling him it was not "his" road. I think my, um,
lack of diplomacy shocked one of my touring companions.

But was it "your road"?

As an aside, I rather resent the inference that those driving pickup
trucks are low lifes. After all, I drive a pickup, my sister-in-law,
who is a small rice trader, drives a pickup. In fact I know a rather
large number of people who drive pickups, the majority of whom are
probably under the impression that they are just normal folks.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, March 24, 2017 at 1:43:42 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-23 09:29, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/23/2017 1:55 AM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 23:33:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

But I admit, it's possible such things vary from culture to culture.
As an example, I did some riding in Estonia (mostly Tallinn), and felt
that motorists were more aggressive than in the U.S. In several other
countries (e.g. France, Italy, Ireland) I thought they were more patient
than here.


Who knows.

In both Thailand and Indonesia I can't remember ever being harassed by
an automobile. Singapore is very law abiding and will give a bicycle
exactly what the law demands, and not an inch more. Which typifies the
countries.

If a number of people are queuing for a taxi for example. In both
Thailand and Indonesia it will be a sort of huddle with everyone
thinking about how to crowd in and be next. In Singapore it will be a
neat and orderly line and woe betide anyone that tries to crowd into
the middle of the line :-)

One friend of ours, of Italian heritage, was excited to accompany her
husband on a business trip / vacation to Europe. They visited Germany
and Italy.

She returned disappointed in Italy. As an example, she said in Germany,
people waiting for a bus queued up politely and entered the bus in
order. In Italy, they crowded around the bus stop and shoved their way
aboard.

I've heard of other cultural differences from friends traveling to other
countries, as well. I suppose it pays to observe and try to blend in.


A German once asked how it was possible that the phone in a phone booth
(anyone remember those?) rings and the operator asks for another 75
cents. "Well, the caller accidentally hung up too early and still owed
that amount" ... "What if he'd not pay and walk away?" ... "That just
does not happen, nobody would do that" ... "WHAT?"

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

This all depends on the honesty of your citizen. And even where I lived it would have been totally unacceptable to not pay it. Even people that would someday hold up banks would pay the extra charges.

On Friday, March 24, 2017 at 10:28:15 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 00:01:00 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/24/2017 9:23 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg
wrote:


Sometimes they are [jerks]. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
"his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
even have a driver license.

But after all, wasn't it "His lane too"?

No.

I do remember, on one bike tour, having a low life multi-tattooed pickup
driver yell at me "Get out of my road." Our offense (there were three of
us riding together) was taking our place in a line of traffic moving at
about 10 mph.

I was not shy about telling him it was not "his" road. I think my, um,
lack of diplomacy shocked one of my touring companions.

But was it "your road"?

As an aside, I rather resent the inference that those driving pickup
trucks are low lifes. After all, I drive a pickup, my sister-in-law,
who is a small rice trader, drives a pickup. In fact I know a rather
large number of people who drive pickups, the majority of whom are
probably under the impression that they are just normal folks.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Well, doesn't that tell the whole story? (eyes rolling)

On 3/25/2017 1:28 AM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 00:01:00 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/24/2017 9:23 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg
wrote:


Sometimes they are [jerks]. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
"his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
even have a driver license.

But after all, wasn't it "His lane too"?

No.

I do remember, on one bike tour, having a low life multi-tattooed pickup
driver yell at me "Get out of my road." Our offense (there were three of
us riding together) was taking our place in a line of traffic moving at
about 10 mph.

I was not shy about telling him it was not "his" road. I think my, um,
lack of diplomacy shocked one of my touring companions.

But was it "your road"?

The road is not a possession of any individual. It's a facility
available to serve the public.

And come to think of it, in his analysis of the foundation principles of
traffic law, John Forester listed this principle: "First come, first
served." That is, any legal road user is allowed safe access to the
roadway for a reasonable distance in front of him. He doesn't lose that
access if someone else would prefer otherwise. The faster motorist
behind (or in my example, the obnoxious motorist who could not move any
faster than we were) cannot clear the road in front of him by demand.


As an aside, I rather resent the inference that those driving pickup
trucks are low lifes. After all, I drive a pickup, my sister-in-law,
who is a small rice trader, drives a pickup. In fact I know a rather
large number of people who drive pickups, the majority of whom are
probably under the impression that they are just normal folks.

There was no such inference. This particular low-life was driving a
pickup truck. In stating that, I made no claim that all pickup drivers
are low-lifes.

This evening I'll be off doing volunteer skilled work at a charity event
with two of my very best friends. They both drive pickup trucks.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 13:32:08 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/25/2017 1:28 AM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 00:01:00 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/24/2017 9:23 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg
wrote:


Sometimes they are [jerks]. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
"his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
even have a driver license.

But after all, wasn't it "His lane too"?

No.

I do remember, on one bike tour, having a low life multi-tattooed pickup
driver yell at me "Get out of my road." Our offense (there were three of
us riding together) was taking our place in a line of traffic moving at
about 10 mph.

I was not shy about telling him it was not "his" road. I think my, um,
lack of diplomacy shocked one of my touring companions.

But was it "your road"?

The road is not a possession of any individual. It's a facility
available to serve the public.

And come to think of it, in his analysis of the foundation principles of
traffic law, John Forester listed this principle: "First come, first
served." That is, any legal road user is allowed safe access to the
roadway for a reasonable distance in front of him. He doesn't lose that
access if someone else would prefer otherwise. The faster motorist
behind (or in my example, the obnoxious motorist who could not move any
faster than we were) cannot clear the road in front of him by demand.


As an aside, I rather resent the inference that those driving pickup
trucks are low lifes. After all, I drive a pickup, my sister-in-law,
who is a small rice trader, drives a pickup. In fact I know a rather
large number of people who drive pickups, the majority of whom are
probably under the impression that they are just normal folks.

There was no such inference. This particular low-life was driving a
pickup truck. In stating that, I made no claim that all pickup drivers
are low-lifes.

This evening I'll be off doing volunteer skilled work at a charity event
with two of my very best friends. They both drive pickup trucks.
Now all the "multi-tattoo'd" guys are going to complain they are
characterized as low-lifes???