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  #21  
Old March 20th 18, 02:39 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 3,967
Default milling machine

On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 09:52:33 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 10:53:04 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:

South Bend Lathe manual, 1914, inside back cover, "Before
starting to work on a lathe, roll up your sleeves and remove
your necktie."

From back in the days when machinists wore neckties! They were classier back then.

They probably didn't wear eye protection in 1914 either.

Yep, googling yields https://www.umassd.edu/about/historyofumassdartmouth/

Things have gotten much safer since then, of course. Safety inflation is real,
and obviously not bad up to a point. I taught an intro to machine shop lab
(just bare basics) and would come down very hard on a student who omitted
eye protection.

But I know the full-time machinist in that lab sometimes worked without eye
protection, just as I sometimes do on my basement lathe. It's a risk we take
based on our judgment of the circumstances.

OTOH, I don't think I've ever obeyed the "Never use without eye protection!"
warnings that seem to come on things like Harbor Freight screwdrivers. That
company probably puts warnings on its rubber erasers.

Kind of like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gzDC-2ZO8I

I put plastic hats in the same category.

- Frank Krygowski


Back when I was working at it I wore USAF supplied corrective glasses
that were also classified as "safety glasses".

When I was in High School I worked one summer in a shop that had
machines similar to the photo in your UMass reference. The shop
belonged to two old brothers and apparently was originally built by
either their father or grandfather - my father remembered it being
there when he was a boy.

The first job that they gave me was making nuts... on a lathe that the
cross slide was calibrated in 128ths of an inch.

As an aside, one of the brothers had a Henderson four cylinder
motorcycle that probably dated to the 1930's sometime that was in
perfect like new condition. He would occasionally ride it to work if
it didn't look like rain :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

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  #22  
Old March 20th 18, 03:48 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,919
Default milling machine

On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 08:23:50 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 12:21:41 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
My payment for doing the computers, electrical and motors is that I
get to use the mill to make custom knives. Something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98ly5-1bhHU (0:00 to 4:30)


I thought that you "knife guys" hand forged the blades. At least that
was what Jesse Clift did when he made what was probably the original
Bowie knife :-)


Some do, but I don't. If you skim through the YouTube videos on knife
making, there are different ways to make the blades:
Blacksmith forging (heat it up and beat it into shape).
Grind, belt sand, or file into shape.
Grinding auto leaf springs, used saw blades, or other steel shapes
into something resembling a blade.
CNC mill or grind to shape.
Cheat and buy a kit.
I'm currently in the last category and sending my blades to a heat
treating shop.

The overwhelming majority of the YouTube videos I've watched deal with
forging, grinding, or sanding the blade. That's great for making one
unique knife, but not suitable for production volume, which is what
I'm thinking of doing.

Blade Steels:
http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/steels.htm
http://www.osograndeknives.com/catal...de-steels.html
https://www.bladehq.com/cat--Steel-Types--332

Heat Treating:
https://evenheat-kiln.com/?p=heat-treating-information

Kits and supplies:
Woodcraft Kits - https://www.woodcraft.com/categories/knife-kits
Knife Kits - http://knifekits.com
Texas Knifemakers Supply - http://texasknife.com
USA Knife Maker - http://usaknifemaker.com
Crazy Crow Trading Post - http://crazycrow.com
K&G - http://knifeandgun.com
Jantz Supply - http://knifemaking.com
Atlanta Cutlery - http://atlantacutlery.com

Incidentally, sharpening all my kitchen knives to an edge sharp enough
for shaving was NOT a good idea. I'm cutting myself quite often and
am slowly destroying my cutting boards and dishes. Paper plates no
longer work as my knives cut through the paper.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #23  
Old March 20th 18, 04:59 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,967
Default milling machine

On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 19:48:03 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 08:23:50 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 12:21:41 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
My payment for doing the computers, electrical and motors is that I
get to use the mill to make custom knives. Something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98ly5-1bhHU (0:00 to 4:30)


I thought that you "knife guys" hand forged the blades. At least that
was what Jesse Clift did when he made what was probably the original
Bowie knife :-)


Some do, but I don't. If you skim through the YouTube videos on knife
making, there are different ways to make the blades:
Blacksmith forging (heat it up and beat it into shape).
Grind, belt sand, or file into shape.
Grinding auto leaf springs, used saw blades, or other steel shapes
into something resembling a blade.
CNC mill or grind to shape.
Cheat and buy a kit.
I'm currently in the last category and sending my blades to a heat
treating shop.

The overwhelming majority of the YouTube videos I've watched deal with
forging, grinding, or sanding the blade. That's great for making one
unique knife, but not suitable for production volume, which is what
I'm thinking of doing.

Blade Steels:
http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/steels.htm
http://www.osograndeknives.com/catal...de-steels.html
https://www.bladehq.com/cat--Steel-Types--332

Heat Treating:
https://evenheat-kiln.com/?p=heat-treating-information

Kits and supplies:
Woodcraft Kits - https://www.woodcraft.com/categories/knife-kits
Knife Kits - http://knifekits.com
Texas Knifemakers Supply - http://texasknife.com
USA Knife Maker - http://usaknifemaker.com
Crazy Crow Trading Post - http://crazycrow.com
K&G - http://knifeandgun.com
Jantz Supply - http://knifemaking.com
Atlanta Cutlery - http://atlantacutlery.com

Incidentally, sharpening all my kitchen knives to an edge sharp enough
for shaving was NOT a good idea. I'm cutting myself quite often and
am slowly destroying my cutting boards and dishes. Paper plates no
longer work as my knives cut through the paper.


I don't do kitchen work but periodically my wife hands me a bunch of
kitchen knives and says "Sharpen them". Generally these are cheap
stainless knives and I've found that simply making a pass across a
grinding wheel on each side works pretty well. It produces a sharp
edge which is not perfectly smooth, more like a very fine tooth saw
which seems to cut better then a perfectly smooth blade.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #24  
Old March 20th 18, 05:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,967
Default milling machine

On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 20:29:45 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 3/19/2018 8:09 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 12:43:45 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 19:47:27 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

What do you think guys, maybe this one is
a good choice?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jML8nVSntuE

A good choice for doing what?

In another thread was the question,

I don't read every thread.

how do they
cut aluminium tubes so that they fit together
before welding, e.g. the top and down tube to
the head tube? And the answer is a
milling machine (and not a press drill).

It's called "mitering":
https://www.google.com/search?q=mitering+bicycle+tubes
A mill with an tiltable head is probably the easiest way to do it.
I've watched the process, but have never done it myself. It can also
be done with a lathe. I don't know if a drill press will work,
probably not. Forget about using a tubing notcher. If the metal is
soft enough for a notcher to work, then it's not strong enough to
ride.

I'm sure the Luna is a good choice for
"doing it" only the person who has to pay for
it might disagree

I don't know anything about Luna mills. Mitering bicycle tubes does
not require fabulous precision. A Chinese benchtop mill could be used
if you're cheap or desperate. The accuracy is mostly in the jigs and
fixtures.


A file is accurate enough :-)


+1

Since I'm in the 'no two alike' frame repair business, I can
miter a top tube at both ends to length with a file faster
than the setup on a general purpose mill.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth8.jpg

If you're making a lot of frames to the same geometry, a
Marchetti & Lange machine is what you want, but that is not
Mr Berg.


Way back when machinists did a lot of filing to fit. While it was
probably slower then a modern CNC machine it was sure cheaper and you
could keep everything in your toolbox :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

  #25  
Old March 20th 18, 06:43 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,919
Default milling machine

On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 10:59:44 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 19:48:03 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:


Incidentally, sharpening all my kitchen knives to an edge sharp enough
for shaving was NOT a good idea. I'm cutting myself quite often and
am slowly destroying my cutting boards and dishes. Paper plates no
longer work as my knives cut through the paper.


I don't do kitchen work but periodically my wife hands me a bunch of
kitchen knives and says "Sharpen them". Generally these are cheap
stainless knives and I've found that simply making a pass across a
grinding wheel on each side works pretty well. It produces a sharp
edge which is not perfectly smooth, more like a very fine tooth saw
which seems to cut better then a perfectly smooth blade.


Disclaimer: I am a beginner on knife making but am learning fast.

It depends one what and how you're using the knife to cut. If you
draw the knife as if you were sawing through the food, a rough edge is
quite superior to a razor sharp edge. However, if you're pushing your
way through the food with the knife, the razor edge works better.

What I did was buy about 15 assorted knives at a local outdoor flea
market and 10 more at a local thrift shop. I used these for practice
to learn how to sharpen them and how to modify the shape of the blade.
Most were stainless but I also found a few 1095 high carbon steel "Old
Hickory" knives.
https://www.knivesplus.com/OLD-HICKORY-KNIVES.HTML

I bought a Harbor Freight 1x30 belt sander and belt assortment from 80
grit to 800 grit:
https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/sanders/1-in-x-30-in-belt-sander-60543.html
an angle guide:
https://www.amazon.com/Knife-Sharpening-Angle-Guide-Sharpen/dp/B01HVXFP80
and a collection of whetstones:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Whetstone-Knife-Grit-1000-8000-Sharpener-Sharpening-Water-Stone-Stand/222660726466
I also setup a binocular microscope so I could see what I was doing to
the edge:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/microscopes/Olympus%20SZ30/slides/SZ30-01.html
After a few frustrating failures, I determined that I could produce a
usable but rough edge with the belt sander, and then refine it to a
razor sharp edge with the water stones. The sanding might only take a
few minutes on the belt sander, but the water stone polishing can
easily take hours. I can easily see the difference with the
microscope.

I have 6" grinder, but I would not use it to sharpen knives. It takes
off too much metal too quickly to maintain control. When I tried it,
the result was a rather "wavy" edge. Even a belt sander takes off too
much metal if you use a rough (80 or 120 grit) belt. If you have a
belt sander, try starting with 120 grit to remove the dings and chips.
Then use increasingly finer belts until you get to 400 or 800 grit.
You can probably just quit there, or if you want a smooth edge, use a
succession of water stones (1000 to 3000) to improve on the edge.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #26  
Old March 20th 18, 07:25 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,967
Default milling machine

On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 22:43:37 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 10:59:44 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 19:48:03 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:


Incidentally, sharpening all my kitchen knives to an edge sharp enough
for shaving was NOT a good idea. I'm cutting myself quite often and
am slowly destroying my cutting boards and dishes. Paper plates no
longer work as my knives cut through the paper.


I don't do kitchen work but periodically my wife hands me a bunch of
kitchen knives and says "Sharpen them". Generally these are cheap
stainless knives and I've found that simply making a pass across a
grinding wheel on each side works pretty well. It produces a sharp
edge which is not perfectly smooth, more like a very fine tooth saw
which seems to cut better then a perfectly smooth blade.


Disclaimer: I am a beginner on knife making but am learning fast.

It depends one what and how you're using the knife to cut. If you
draw the knife as if you were sawing through the food, a rough edge is
quite superior to a razor sharp edge. However, if you're pushing your
way through the food with the knife, the razor edge works better.

What I did was buy about 15 assorted knives at a local outdoor flea
market and 10 more at a local thrift shop. I used these for practice
to learn how to sharpen them and how to modify the shape of the blade.
Most were stainless but I also found a few 1095 high carbon steel "Old
Hickory" knives.
https://www.knivesplus.com/OLD-HICKORY-KNIVES.HTML

I bought a Harbor Freight 1x30 belt sander and belt assortment from 80
grit to 800 grit:
https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/sanders/1-in-x-30-in-belt-sander-60543.html
an angle guide:
https://www.amazon.com/Knife-Sharpening-Angle-Guide-Sharpen/dp/B01HVXFP80
and a collection of whetstones:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Whetstone-Knife-Grit-1000-8000-Sharpener-Sharpening-Water-Stone-Stand/222660726466
I also setup a binocular microscope so I could see what I was doing to
the edge:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/microscopes/Olympus%20SZ30/slides/SZ30-01.html
After a few frustrating failures, I determined that I could produce a
usable but rough edge with the belt sander, and then refine it to a
razor sharp edge with the water stones. The sanding might only take a
few minutes on the belt sander, but the water stone polishing can
easily take hours. I can easily see the difference with the
microscope.

I have 6" grinder, but I would not use it to sharpen knives. It takes
off too much metal too quickly to maintain control. When I tried it,
the result was a rather "wavy" edge. Even a belt sander takes off too
much metal if you use a rough (80 or 120 grit) belt. If you have a
belt sander, try starting with 120 grit to remove the dings and chips.
Then use increasingly finer belts until you get to 400 or 800 grit.
You can probably just quit there, or if you want a smooth edge, use a
succession of water stones (1000 to 3000) to improve on the edge.


Somewhere around the Net is a site that talks about super sharp, or
deadly sharp, or some other fancy name. That guy used plain old emery
paper on a flat block to sharpen a knife.

I've tried it and it works pretty well except that if you move the
blade forward - leading with the sharp edge - it scrapes the abrasive
off the paper :-) But it does work pretty well if you pull the blade
"backward" with the sharp edge trailing. I usually have a couple pf
wood blocks with emery paper glued to one side laying around the
bench. If you are cutting something like glass cloth a couple of
swipes across the blocks every cut or so keeps a pretty good edge on
the knife.

I made several "work knives" - sort of a substitute for a folding
pocket knife, after I broke mine - out of "All Hard" power hacksaw
blades. The edge holds up pretty well to abuse but doesn't "take an
edge" as well as say old files.

There is a Usenet group "rec.knives" that used to be pretty active but
I haven't been there for quite a while.

--
Cheers,

John B.

  #27  
Old March 20th 18, 02:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,035
Default milling machine

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I don't read every thread.


Who does?

It's called "mitering":
https://www.google.com/search?q=mitering+bicycle+tubes
A mill with an tiltable head is probably the
easiest way to do it. I've watched the
process, but have never done it myself.
It can also be done with a lathe.


I do have a lathe, only I don't know if it
works. Maybe I can repair it. Getting the pipes
in place are probably easier with
a mill, right?

I don't know if a drill press will work,
probably not. Forget about using a tubing
notcher. If the metal is soft enough for
a notcher to work, then it's not strong
enough to ride.


OK.

Mitering bicycle tubes does not require
fabulous precision. A Chinese benchtop mill
could be used


OK, what brands are they?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #28  
Old March 20th 18, 02:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,035
Default milling machine

AMuzi wrote:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth8.jpg


Right, but are the tubes typically that thin?
If so I see the point.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #29  
Old March 20th 18, 03:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,035
Default milling machine

AMuzi wrote:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth8.jpg


Also, how does one know how much to file away?
Like if you have one tube that has diameter A,
and another has diameter B, and A B, and you
want the second tube to be at an angle X from
the first?

If we return to the lathe guys they have
a small thing with rods that can be pushed back
and forth to form a pattern, perhaps something
like that can be used to do a template if it is
difficult to compute?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #30  
Old March 20th 18, 03:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,035
Default milling machine

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I don't know if a drill press will work,
probably not.


What's the problem with a drill press? If the
tubes are as thin as in AMuzi's photo, I don't
see power being a problem assuming the tubes
can be fixed robustly which one has to do
anyway with a milling machine?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
 




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