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#31
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cassette clockwise arrow 40 nm
On 07/03/2017 8:59 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/7/2017 5:07 AM, Duane wrote: jbeattie wrote: On Monday, March 6, 2017 at 12:41:56 PM UTC-8, Duane wrote: On 06/03/2017 3:19 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote: Hello again everyone! Now I've moved on from the Swedish and Norwegian standard bikes of the 70s into the most recent of bike technology, namely the mountain-bike or "MTB"! I read on the cassette that you should pull it 40 nm. There is even an arrow pointing the way. It is the well-known way, but OK. I know there is a tool for this - torque wrench, right? I don't have one, but I do have the everyday half-inch ratchet, and the special socket with all the teeth (?) - of 40 nm, I know only this is a lot and the reason I know this is every time I remove it, it is stuck like, very firmly! When I pull, I hear a crash sound three or four times. This seems to be normal. I asked the local guru who did bikes since the 80s. He also claimed he was a master after only two years. Anyway he suggested it was sand! But I'm not that stupid I don't make the parts rudimentary clean before I operate them. So it is not sand. Besides the sound is much to big to be sand. Anyway what do you guys make of all this? Get a torque wrench and tighten it to 40nm. I have a couple of torque wrenches, but my cassette took does not have a socket wrench fitting -- so I use a adjustable wrench. Go ahead and hate on me, but I just give the lock ring a good yank. With the serrations, loosening is unlikely. But now I feel bad and will go out and find a tool with a socket wrench fitting. -- Jay Beattie No hating. The guy was asking for advice. Best advice is get the right tool. Excellent advice but it won't fix his problem as he appears to have incompatible parts. Adding a 1mm spacer behind low gear will lock his 11t-start cassette on his pre-11t cassette body. Oh, one more note: Lockrings for 11t are smaller OD. The wrong lockring will interfere with the chain. Just thought of that after Mr Berg's comment about 'bucket of parts'. That's why you the man. You know which questions to ask. |
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#32
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cassette clockwise arrow 40 nm
On Monday, March 6, 2017 at 9:32:19 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, March 6, 2017 at 8:39:57 PM UTC-8, Emanuel Berg wrote: jbeattie wrote: lock ring a good yank. With the serrations Where are those, one the spacers mentioned earlier? I advise you not to listen to anyone else on this subject except Al Muzi. You don't need a torque wrench but it's nice to have one and the adapter to work with your cassette key. The Park cassette tool -- a least the one I have -- doesn't have a female socket fitting. One could use a 1" socket on the end of a torque wrench. It appears that the Park tool is sized for a 1" wrench/socket. Or one could buy the Shimano tool that has a female socket fitting. 40nm is about 30 foot pounds -- about the recommended torque for old square drive crank bolts. It would take a lot of torque to strip a steel freehub body and steel lock ring, and if it were under-torqued (but still given a good twist), the serrations would hold the lock ring. But, again, its always good to follow recommended torque specs. -- Jay Beattie. |
#33
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cassette clockwise arrow 40 nm
AMuzi wrote:
Excellent advice but it won't fix his problem as he appears to have incompatible parts. Adding a 1mm spacer behind low gear will lock his 11t-start cassette on his pre-11t cassette body. OK, now the discussion gets confusing. When I pulled the lockring, which isn't a bolt, I heard three crashes when the ring moved in the direction of the pull. I think I could have mustered another crash sound, perhaps yet another one, so most likely I pulled *below* the prescribed 40 Nm. Next time I do it, God willing I will use a torque wrench. Now, riding the bike, all 8 gears work great. There is no noise. I have not experienced any practical problems so the issue was more like understanding the reason for the crash sound. Especially since I got such a lousy answer from the professional claiming it was sand! so I got motivated to find out why. Now, your theory might still be correct - or would it imply anything tangible while riding the bike and changing gear? Oh, one more note: Lockrings for 11t are smaller OD. The wrong lockring will interfere with the chain. Just thought of that after Mr Berg's comment about 'bucket of parts'. OK, OD = outside diameter. As for the buckets of parts sometimes they are very useful but in this case (the cassette) it is just for picking apart and hopefully understanding more, getting used to them and the tools etc., I'm not trying to put together another cassette to put on a bike -- underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic - so far: 69 Blogomatic articles - |
#34
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cassette clockwise arrow 40 nm
John B. wrote:
The inner surface of the flange on the retaining nut is serrated and the outside surface of the small cassette cog is also serrated and the noise you hear is the serrations scrapping over each other. The separations serve to act as a locking method for the retaining nut. OK, so this is it: There is a corresponding pattern of serration in the lockring (L) and the cassette (C). Say the (L) has bulge (b) and this is in (C)'s slot number (s). When you have it all in your hand, it feels pretty solid, but put a wrench and pull, (b) jumps from (s) to (s) + (n) where (n) is the number of slots skipped, and because it is so tight, this jump and/or (?) landing makes the crash sound? Am I making any (sense) here? -- underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic - so far: 69 Blogomatic articles - |
#35
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cassette clockwise arrow 40 nm
John B. wrote:
While admittedly I don't use a torque wrench a great deal it does depend largely on an individual's experience. Due to some "Command Decision" the A.F. Base where I was stationed decided to break up the athletic teams that were essentially professional players with no other duties, and put them out on the line. I ended up with a 6 foot plus basketball player who literally the strongest person I ever worked with. He could pick up a 150 lb. turbo supercharger and hold it over his head while the crew screwed in the mount bolts. We didn't let him be a mechanic though as with a 1/4" tee handle he would twist off 1/4" bolts when he tightened them. Some times a torque wrench is necessary :-) Me Grimlock love Kup's war stories -- underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic - so far: 69 Blogomatic articles - |
#36
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cassette clockwise arrow 40 nm
AMuzi wrote:
Look inside the 11t sprocket and you will see the splines do not go fully through to the outside. Add a 1mm spacer behind the low gear, lube and torque your lockring and that rattle will go away. OK, now I get it (I think), by rattle, you mean what I've called crash sounds. You suggest I should remove the new cassette, put in the spacer, and put the cassette back on? Even tho I don't experience anything negative using it as it is? And this time, no crash sounds or "rattle" when pulling? -- underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic - so far: 69 Blogomatic articles - |
#37
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cassette clockwise arrow 40 nm
On 2017-03-06 17:00, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Joerg wrote: I use a regular wrench, note the length, calculate the required pull force at the end and then I use a suitcase scales that my sister gave me. A digital one with a hook where you normally lift a suitcase with to see if it is still under the required 50lbs. Under $10. ... really? How do you "mount" it all? Even if it could be done, ... It can be done easily. Most of my wrenches have either a loop or a circumferential groove. If they didn't I could quickly add one. I put the cassette together (mostly I have them in pieces to be able to mix and match), tighten all the stuff by hand. Now I slip the wrench onto the Shimano tool, crank the wrench by hand but not too hard, press the button on the suitcase scale, slide the hook through the loop or let it slip into the groove at the other end of the wrench and then pull on its handle until the display shows the "weight" I calculated to indicate correct torque. Ok, you first have to measure the length of your wrench but after some years doing it this way you already know that. You could also write the "scale factor" onto the wrench. I can almost bet this method is more accurate than a ratchet but that's not the reason I am doing it this way. My dad used an analog butcher scale. Works just as well but those can hurt if they accidentally slip off the handle and go flying. ... isn't this like a poor-man's torque wrench and much more complicated at that? No, it is very practical. I try to be a minimalist with many things. Why buy and store a torque wrench when it is not truly needed? Then there is the ratchet mechanism. When it gets old how do you know it is still accurate? The suitcase scale I can easily check. of 40 nm, I know only this is a lot and the reason I know this is every time I remove it, it is stuck like, very firmly! It is a lot. But I thought you Vikings are all supermen with lots of muscle, exclaiming a loud "uff da" and off the cassette comes :-) Sorry, wrong country. That's the Norwegian vikings. We on the other hand were clever merchants even then :-) On my Shimano cassettes the end piece that tightens it up has teeth inside so it will make a loud ratchet sound at the end. I guess that was done so it won't come loose during a ride. If the outer sprocket would ever slip off and turn free while pedaling hard you could have a major crash. So it better not come off. Indeed, I figured it was something with the casette. The smallest sprockets (two or three?) are somewhat loose to begin with. Do you know what is actually making the sound, functionality aside? You mean when tightening? Take apart the old cassette. You'll see knuckles on the inside (pointing towards the wheel) of the fastening screw and also knuckles on the surface it comes to rest on. Those knuckles will cause that rat-tat-tat noise when tightening a cassette. Think of it as two washboards rubbing on each other with the wavy sides touching. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#38
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cassette clockwise arrow 40 nm
Joerg wrote:
It can be done easily [...] OK, probably I would need a picture to get the picture... but I believe you, of course. You mean when tightening? Take apart the old cassette. You'll see knuckles on the inside (pointing towards the wheel) of the fastening screw and also knuckles on the surface it comes to rest on. Those knuckles will cause that rat-tat-tat noise when tightening a cassette. Think of it as two washboards rubbing on each other with the wavy sides touching. OK, now at least I know I was wrong the last time I suspected I was wrong. How the ... does that work...? Amazing, you pull a ring and the hole thing tightens up? Still, why the singular crash sound and not a long squeeeek or as you say rat-tat-tat? This was more complete silence - pull - CRASH - new position of lock ring. How does the rotation make the whole cylinder more tight? Or is tightening confined to the part where the lockring is? Man, we should have a 3D-animation to show this! -- underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic - so far: 69 Blogomatic articles - with: #moasen @ irc.freenode.net 6667 |
#39
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cassette clockwise arrow 40 nm
On 2017-03-07 08:46, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Joerg wrote: It can be done easily [...] OK, probably I would need a picture to get the picture... but I believe you, of course. Here you go. Looks like others have done it as well: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/to...le-d_1909.html You mean when tightening? Take apart the old cassette. You'll see knuckles on the inside (pointing towards the wheel) of the fastening screw and also knuckles on the surface it comes to rest on. Those knuckles will cause that rat-tat-tat noise when tightening a cassette. Think of it as two washboards rubbing on each other with the wavy sides touching. OK, now at least I know I was wrong the last time I suspected I was wrong. How the ... does that work...? Amazing, you pull a ring and the hole thing tightens up? scratching head Which ring? The usual cassettes have a large flat screw with a wide rim around it. That rim has the knuckles or teeth and so does the surface it comes in contact with when torqued down. Which also makes it tough to loosen because you have to overcome the first few torque pulses to get out it out of that "groove hold". ... Still, why the singular crash sound and not a long squeeeek or as you say rat-tat-tat? This was more complete silence - pull - CRASH - new position of lock ring. How does the rotation make the whole cylinder more tight? Or is tightening confined to the part where the lockring is? Man, we should have a 3D-animation to show this! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns3x2HD6uqs Go to 6:30min. You can hear it in the video but you can see the jagged rotation of the wrench at the end and he mentions the ratcheting effect. Note he does not use a torque wrench. Also 2:40min he https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEAASx8ipsI -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#40
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cassette clockwise arrow 40 nm
On Tue, 07 Mar 2017 19:23:22 +0700
John B. wrote: A Master boat builder sees one of the "hands" driving screws in with a hammer. Rolf! he shouts, "What the H___ do you think those screws got that slot in the head for?" Rolf looks up and says, "Oh yes Boss, that's to take them out with". Where I grew up an insult to the folks in the nearby city was to call a hammer a "Brummagem screwdriver". If my turntable was working I'd put on the "Bert and I" album now. Hang on clickety clickety -- I can get it on CD! http://www.bert-and-i.com/ Mike |
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