Which brands use which frames?

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 07:07:46 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:36:16 +0100, Martin Wilson
wrote:
Assuming the frames are coming from
Taiwan that is. It will be really sad if they are coming from mainland
China or Vietnam.

Why is that?

JT

Well Taiwan are the best bike frame builders in the world with some
sophisticated factories incoporating welding robots and expensive heat
treating facilities as found in factories by Giant and Merida as well
as others I'm sure. Where as mainland China and Vietnam are generally
lower tech and sell at the bottom end of pricing normally. They tend
to make the lower cost steel frames or aluminium that doesn't need
heat treating like basic 7005 frames. I'm sure that will change but at
this point in time Taiwan are generally far better frame builders.

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 02:00:29 +0100, Martin Wilson
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 07:07:46 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:36:16 +0100, Martin Wilson
wrote:
Assuming the frames are coming from
Taiwan that is. It will be really sad if they are coming from mainland
China or Vietnam.

Why is that?

JT

Well Taiwan are the best bike frame builders in the world with some
sophisticated factories incoporating welding robots and expensive heat
treating facilities as found in factories by Giant and Merida as well
as others I'm sure. Where as mainland China and Vietnam are generally
lower tech and sell at the bottom end of pricing normally. They tend
to make the lower cost steel frames or aluminium that doesn't need
heat treating like basic 7005 frames. I'm sure that will change but at
this point in time Taiwan are generally far better frame builders.

How about saying "it will be really sad if the quality goes down"
given that there is no evidence one way or the other of quality change
in these bikes.

JT


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On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:17:10 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 02:00:29 +0100, Martin Wilson
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 07:07:46 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:36:16 +0100, Martin Wilson
wrote:
Assuming the frames are coming from
Taiwan that is. It will be really sad if they are coming from mainland
China or Vietnam.

Why is that?

JT

Well Taiwan are the best bike frame builders in the world with some
sophisticated factories incoporating welding robots and expensive heat
treating facilities as found in factories by Giant and Merida as well
as others I'm sure. Where as mainland China and Vietnam are generally
lower tech and sell at the bottom end of pricing normally. They tend
to make the lower cost steel frames or aluminium that doesn't need
heat treating like basic 7005 frames. I'm sure that will change but at
this point in time Taiwan are generally far better frame builders.

How about saying "it will be really sad if the quality goes down"
given that there is no evidence one way or the other of quality change
in these bikes.


I don't think the quality will go down if some production was moved to
the better manufacturing plants of taiwan in fact it would more likely
go up. I would just think it a shame that Cannondale weren't a full
USA bike manufacturing company anymore. Sometimes brand is about
something you want to buy into, a reputation, a style, sporting
history etc. When you buy a Cannondale you are buying something a bit
different from Trek, Specialized, GT etc. Cannondale have a reputation
for innovation and building their own bikes from the ground up in the
USA.

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 06:43:10 +0100, Martin Wilson
wrote:
I would just think it a shame that Cannondale weren't a full
USA bike manufacturing company anymore.

That's what I was really asking about. I don't understand why that is
"a shame." A share for who?


Sometimes brand is about
something you want to buy into, a reputation, a style, sporting
history etc.

OK, now I (sort of) understand. I buy bikes based on how they ride
myself, but I guess other people have difference motivations.

JT

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On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 05:03:03 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 06:43:10 +0100, Martin Wilson
wrote:
I would just think it a shame that Cannondale weren't a full
USA bike manufacturing company anymore.

That's what I was really asking about. I don't understand why that is
"a shame." A share for who?



Well variety of available bikes I suppose. Just about all bikes are
coming out of taiwan and it would be nice if Cannondale continued to
provide something different.

Sometimes brand is about
something you want to buy into, a reputation, a style, sporting
history etc.

OK, now I (sort of) understand. I buy bikes based on how they ride
myself, but I guess other people have difference motivations.

JT


I've never bought or even ridden a Cannondale. I sadly tend to buy on
price and just go for the best quality components on a bike I can
afford as my no.1 priority. I still think theres a place for a true
usa made bike even if I'd have to be a bit richer before I personally
bought one.

Martin Wilson wrote:

the reference or have gone elsewhere. A Specialized owner has claimed
that Specialized have used Merida and Giant for their frames. I know
Specialized have used Kinesis forks.

AFAIK, Specialized is (at least partialy) owned by Merida...

Today, most "brand" companies are just sales offices without any
manufacturing (and probably engineering) resources. That doesn't mean
they don't sell good bicycles, though.

Taiwan bike makers are by far the best in the world. Despite what "we" want
to believe.
Most of the newer technology has come from Taiwan. Hodaka worked with Scott
USA to develop the new CF-1 880 gram road frame, Giant is leading in carbon
fiber (and full suspension design) right now too. Colago and Pinarelli have
been making frames in Taiwan (on the quiet) for 2-3 years now and now
Colnago has come out of the closet and told the world that they are making
the new carbon fiber frames there. Colnago is a big sponsor of "The
A-Team",a group of Taiwanese bike manufacturers.

Frames are generally made outside of the assembly factories. Sure, Giant and
Hodaka make many of their own frames but there are about 30 very high
quality frame makers in Taiwan that just make bicycle frames.

Merida has helped Specialized a lot. The Specialized Epic design is actually
a Merida design. Merida was trying to sell it to many of it's customers for
over 2 years before it appeared on a Specialized. Obviously, with Nerida
being the owner of Specialized they used this brand to sell their design.
Actually, until the Fox 'Brain' thing was developed this was not a very good
design. I've always maintained that this new shock developemnt is fed by
shock makers having to find solutions to frame buiders bad suspension
designs.

And don't be concerned about the quality of the bikes vs. bikes made in the
USA. I was in a US bike factory once and I was watching a guy apply decals.
He had put one on crooked and another had a wrinkle in it. When I asked him
how he could let it go down the line like that he said "Mr, I get paid to
do it. I don't get paid to do it right!"

Oh, and to put right a comment from an earlier reply. ALL aluminum frames
must be heat treated. I do't know where the "or aluminium that doesn't need
heat treating like basic 7005 frames." came from but it's incorrect.

I hope I've helped.

"Martin Wilson" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:17:10 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 02:00:29 +0100, Martin Wilson
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 07:07:46 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:36:16 +0100, Martin Wilson
wrote:
Assuming the frames are coming from
Taiwan that is. It will be really sad if they are coming from mainland
China or Vietnam.

Why is that?

JT

Well Taiwan are the best bike frame builders in the world with some
sophisticated factories incoporating welding robots and expensive heat
treating facilities as found in factories by Giant and Merida as well
as others I'm sure. Where as mainland China and Vietnam are generally
lower tech and sell at the bottom end of pricing normally. They tend
to make the lower cost steel frames or aluminium that doesn't need
heat treating like basic 7005 frames. I'm sure that will change but at
this point in time Taiwan are generally far better frame builders.

How about saying "it will be really sad if the quality goes down"
given that there is no evidence one way or the other of quality change
in these bikes.


I don't think the quality will go down if some production was moved to
the better manufacturing plants of taiwan in fact it would more likely
go up. I would just think it a shame that Cannondale weren't a full
USA bike manufacturing company anymore. Sometimes brand is about
something you want to buy into, a reputation, a style, sporting
history etc. When you buy a Cannondale you are buying something a bit
different from Trek, Specialized, GT etc. Cannondale have a reputation
for innovation and building their own bikes from the ground up in the
USA.

aotearoa706 wrote:

Giant is leading in carbon fiber (and full suspension design) right now
So why do they make the most ugly bikes one can imagine? Why do I keep
reading in tests that the Giants aren't stable?

Colago and Pinarelli
Colnago and Pinarello you mean.

Maybe frames are produced in Taiwan that are as good or are even better than
bikes from elsewhere, but design is really not on a high level in my
opinion.

Greets, Derk