Another reason to avoid critical mass...

In article ,
N8N writes:
On May 20, 12:54*am, (Tom Keats) wrote:
In article ,
* * * * Brent P writes:



http://articles.citypages.com/2008-0.../moles-wanted/

Seems the old police and federal moles infiltrating groups and then
possibly starting violence is still alive and well.

/Avoid/ Critical Mass?!
Yes, why avoid critical mass? After all, the best way to get people
to see your point of view is to act like a complete dick and break a
bunch of laws.

We all get to see drivers' P'sOV via their own
acting like dicks and breaking a bunch of laws
in their own Critical Masses, every single day
of every year (as opposed to one day out of
every month.)

AISI, in some ways bicycle Critical Mass is a
mirror-reflection of drivers' behaviours, right
back in their faces. C-M informs drivers of their
own inflictions and afflictions upon people.
Apparently drivers don't like the taste of their
own medicine.

I encourage you to consider the societal effects
of your own urban car-driving. You get to go,
and life is good. But you're in a stream of urban
car traffic that keeps non-driving others from being
able to cross the street you're on, so they could get
to the shops they want to patronize.

Car traffic is bad for business and The Economy,
because it cuts customers off from shops.

And car traffic plugs itself up. At least bike
C-M keeps going, and gets out of everybody's way.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

On May 21, 5:44*am, (Tom Keats) wrote:
In article ,
* * * * N8N writes:

On May 20, 12:54*am, (Tom Keats) wrote:
In article ,
* * * * Brent P writes:

http://articles.citypages.com/2008-0.../moles-wanted/

Seems the old police and federal moles infiltrating groups and then
possibly starting violence is still alive and well.

/Avoid/ Critical Mass?!
Yes, why avoid critical mass? *After all, the best way to get people
to see your point of view is to act like a complete dick and break a
bunch of laws.

We all get to see drivers' P'sOV via their own
acting like dicks and breaking a bunch of laws
in their own Critical Masses, every single day
of every year (as opposed to one day out of
every month.)

And I see cyclists doing it every day as well. The solution is not to
try to one-up each other, the solution is to enforce the damn laws.

nate

On 2008-05-21, Tom Keats wrote:

We all get to see drivers' P'sOV via their own
acting like dicks and breaking a bunch of laws
in their own Critical Masses, every single day
of every year (as opposed to one day out of
every month.)

I see similiar percentages of people acting like dicks and generally
behaving poorly with regards to right of way on the road regardless of
vehicle. Somewhat higher percentages for cabbies, rice boys, and of
course truckers.

AISI, in some ways bicycle Critical Mass is a
mirror-reflection of drivers' behaviours, right
back in their faces. C-M informs drivers of their
own inflictions and afflictions upon people.
Apparently drivers don't like the taste of their
own medicine.

It's the GWB policy of mirroring the terrorism to an entire population
that superficially looks like the terrorists. And surprise, all it does
is anger people and increase the ranks of terrorists.

By taking the assholishness of *SOME* drivers and mirroring it to *ALL*
drivers what you end up doing is getting drivers that weren't a problem
to decide to mirror your assholishness back at all bicyclists. CM is not
doing any good. It just convinces drivers who weren't a problem that
bicyclists deserve to be treated poorly.

Your 'us' vs. 'them' view simply creates a condition of perpetual 'war'.

The problem drivers never vanish, the 'need' for bicycle activism
never disappears because CM and others are out there agitating people
who weren't a problem. Find some bees that were minding their own
business out in the woods not bothering you and wack their hive with a
stick because some bee stung you once.. That's essentially what CM is
doing. ****ing off lots of drivers to get back at a minority of the
them. It's stupid unless you're in the activism business and need to
keep an enemy around.

If you really want to **** off the problem drivers, the thing to do is
ride 100% to the vehicle code. Don't give them an inch. assert your
right of way. Take the lane when needed. Don't gutter pass. Don't use
side walks. The regular decent drivers are not offended by this
behavior. The problem ones are and it frustrates them to no end IME. If
you want to see one really flip into a rage, change to the left lane and
pass them when they are going too slow for your tastes.

I encourage you to consider the societal effects
of your own urban car-driving. You get to go,
and life is good. But you're in a stream of urban
car traffic that keeps non-driving others from being
able to cross the street you're on, so they could get
to the shops they want to patronize.

Lol. And one can just walk through a stream of bicyclists? One's like CM
who don't even stop for red signals?

Car traffic is bad for business and The Economy,
because it cuts customers off from shops.

Ask shops how the chicago state-street ped mall worked out... clue: it
was a disaster.

And car traffic plugs itself up. At least bike
C-M keeps going, and gets out of everybody's way.

If a group of car drivers streamed through red signals and forced
everyone who wasn't following their route to sit and wait they would
move well too.

Most congestion is caused by poor driving. I see people doing the exact
same stupid congestion causing behaviors on bicycle frequently. In fact
its the reason I don't particularly find organized rides all that
enjoyable. The plodders ride 3 and 4 wide. This means when I catch up to
them I have to slow to their speed, wait for a gap in on coming traffic
and then hammer it around them. 25 miles of this can wear a person out
and make 75-100 miles much more difficult.

I'm confused on a couple points, I'm hoping that one of the big
brained folks here can straighten me out.

First, how do the g-men go about infiltrating an event? I'm mean if
CM was a group that you could join like the klan I would get it, but
I've been led to believe that CM was pretty much just something that
happened and thems involved didn't really elect officers.

Second, other than CM being on friday and club rides on saturday,
what's the difference? Is it the outfits that they wear? Is it that
the club riders generally haul their bikes to the start with a MV &
the CMers just start out wherever they are? Is it that the clubs
often have a SUV or two trailing them to haul them home if they get to
sweaty?

On 2008-05-21, DennisTheBald wrote:

First, how do the g-men go about infiltrating an event? I'm mean if
CM was a group that you could join like the klan I would get it, but
I've been led to believe that CM was pretty much just something that
happened and thems involved didn't really elect officers.

They go in to a protest, a CM ride, etc and try to appear to be members
of the same group. Then when appearing to be a member of the group they
will do what they can to start violence even it means they pick up rocks
and throw them at cops. Once they get things started they disappear or
get 'arrested' and later let go. Even if they don't get things started
they've created the headline they set out to create anyway.

It works because many people fall for the group think like Tom takes
anyone who drives a car as deserving mistreatment because some drivers
mistreated bicyclists. Now that group that wants an investigation about
some government action, a return to the gold standard, or whatever
threatens the status-quo are labeled as violent kooks. It keeps the
masses from listening to the message.

Second, other than CM being on friday and club rides on saturday,
what's the difference? Is it the outfits that they wear? Is it that
the club riders generally haul their bikes to the start with a MV &
the CMers just start out wherever they are? Is it that the clubs
often have a SUV or two trailing them to haul them home if they get to
sweaty?

It has to do with where they are and what else is going on near by if it
warrants police/fed attention.

The thing is, the feds don't need to set up CM, CM does enough on their
own. Although I guess the news media doesn't spread it far and wide
without kicking it up a level.

In article ,
N8N wrote:

And I see cyclists doing it every day as well. The solution is not to
try to one-up each other, the solution is to enforce the damn laws.

Fix 'em first, or you end up in Aunt Judyland.


--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

In article ,
DennisTheBald wrote:
I'm confused on a couple points, I'm hoping that one of the big
brained folks here can straighten me out.

First, how do the g-men go about infiltrating an event? I'm mean if
CM was a group that you could join like the klan I would get it, but
I've been led to believe that CM was pretty much just something that
happened and thems involved didn't really elect officers.

So the G-men just go. Then start an incident. Then arrest anyone
else involved in the incident they started. It's an old, old, trick;
goes back to Roman times at the very least.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

On May 21, 2:23*pm, (Matthew T. Russotto)
wrote:
In article ,

DennisTheBald wrote:
I'm confused on a couple points, I'm hoping that one of the big
brained folks here can straighten me out.

First, how do the g-men go about infiltrating an event? *I'm mean if
CM was a group that you could join like the klan I would get it, but
I've been led to believe that CM was pretty much just something that
happened and thems involved didn't really elect officers.

So the G-men just go. *Then start an incident. *Then arrest anyone
else involved in the incident they started. *It's an old, old, trick;
goes back to Roman times at the very least.
--
* There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
* result in a fully-depreciated one.

What you suggest is within the realm of possibility and may have even
occurred on very rare occasions. It is extremely unlikely to happen
except as an aberration though for several reasons. First, most C-M
rides are good natured and, as a group, cops would rather let a few
minor traffic infractions slide than take actions that turn a good
natured event into a major hassle. Second, the overwhelming majority
of cops don't like to have to use force. We'll use it when we have to
but every use of force is another opportunity to get hurt, to catch a
beef, to get sued, etcetera. As a group, we don't like those
possibilities anymore than you do. Third, and the more radical among C-
Mers may find this offensive so I'll apologize for any hurt feelings
in advance, Critical Mass is rather far down on the list of things
most cops worry about. I'd put it somewhere between jaywalking and
garden variety panhandling. All three are irritating at times but they
are *minor* irritants. Last but by no means least, most of the people
that run police departments are administrators first and cops second,
if at all. Administrators tend to like peace and quiet in their
domains. Incidents, especially mass arrest incidents, are never quiet
and rarely peaceful. Show me a cop that has complete faith in his
superiors' backing him when he instigates an incident that disturbs
those superiors' peace and quiet and I'll show you a naive fool. Since
there are so many of us it's safe to say that some of us are naive and
some of us are fools but I doubt many of us are naive fools that also
just happen to hate C-M.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

On 2008-05-22, Bob wrote:
occurred on very rare occasions. It is extremely unlikely to happen
except as an aberration though for several reasons. First, most C-M
rides are good natured and, as a group, cops would rather let a few
minor traffic infractions slide than take actions that turn a good
natured event into a major hassle.

Maybe in your area.... while I was driving I had a cop do a U-turn and
come flying after me because I 'made a face at him'. And yes, I did make
a face at him after he turned right across my path with his cellphone to
his ear.

On May 21, 8:16*pm, Brent P
wrote:
On 2008-05-22, Bob wrote:

occurred on very rare occasions. It is extremely unlikely to happen
except as an aberration though for several reasons. First, most C-M
rides are good natured and, as a group, cops would rather let a few
minor traffic infractions slide than take actions that turn a good
natured event into a major hassle.

Maybe in your area.... while I was driving I had a cop do a U-turn and
come flying after me because I 'made a face at him'. And yes, I did make
a face at him after he turned right across my path with his cellphone to
his ear.

Brent, I *am* in your area and even if I weren't I'd stand by my
statement. Even accepting your story as 100% accurate doesn't change
it. Maybe the cop was having a bad day. Maybe he's simply not the best
cop around. Who knows? You don't and neither do I. What I do know is
judging a group of roughly 18,000 (an approximation of the number of
cops in the Chicago area) that must easily average 10 contacts with
the public each day by the actions of one cop in one instance on one
day is, to be kind, statistically unsound.

Regards,
Bob Hunt