Handlebar rotation

On 2017-07-14 12:39, wrote:
On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 7:50:17 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

No that isn't true. To be correct you have to say "Joerg" breaks
his bicycle a lot".

Research the posts and you will find that while "Joerg" seems to
have almost continuous problems with his bicycles breaking no one
else seems to have that problem.

And I have come to the conclusion that most of the people here ride
city bikes like they do in Holland at average speeds of 5 mph.
Frank's comments alone and everyone agreeing with him shows that very
few people understand real sport biking. Jeorg certainly does.


It's not just sport biking. When I bring a package to Fedex I often
"floor it" because it has to be there by the cut-off. Errands in
Placerville are similar except that's only reachable by MTB. And then I
have fun :-)

Other situations can arise even when it's purely a non-biz ride. Like
yesterday. The only way to master the trail Lotus-Folsom and back in 95F
weather and full sunshine is to carry lots of water. So I built a 3rd
trunk for the MTB and carried almost 1-1/2 gallons of liquids. I needed
almost every drop. Adding a rack to a full-sus MTB that can carry more
than a couple of bottles and survive hard trail riding requires some
serious shop time. Because all the industry provides are flimsy
boom-carriers that mount to the seat post and that alone just doesn't
cut it. I had that and it buckled on the first ride. Now it looks more
like the rear end of a dual-sport motorcycle. Luckily my MTB buddy is a
machinist who could make me a massive anchor bracket for the new
diagonal strut. You can't buy this.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-07-14 10:32, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 14, 2017 at 8:22:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/14/2017 10:09 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-13 08:37, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/13/2017 10:12 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-13 04:53, John B. wrote:

[...]

What is next? A bicycle hits a lamp post and it is the
post's fault?

But more seriously, I ride in Bangkok traffic and yes,
people do occasionally pull out of driveways in front of me
and yes, cars occasionally turn in front of me. But so far
I haven't hit one. I haven't even come close.

Am I superman? (I just asked my wife that question and only
laughed :-)


Sometimes it is simply too late and there is nothing you can
do other than brace for impact.

There are other things you can do before it's too late. That's
how some riders avoid these crashes their entire riding
career.


Right. Superman Frank would have instantly popped out the wings
on his bike and flown over the car that jutted right in front of
him.

I've never had one of those crashes in my entire cycling career.
That's 45 years of adult cycling, plus lots of kid and teen
cycling. That's commuting, touring, utility riding, recreational
riding in all sorts of environments.

What are you doing wrong, Joerg?


As I have wrote numerous times, nothing. It's _other_ people who messed
up, so far. Yesterday again but not while MTB riding because the only
encounters there were horses, dogs and one lone hiker. It was on the
drive back when a guy in a Chevy Expresss van pulled into a county road
very close in front of me. Luckily my SUV has strong truck brakes and it
would have protected me even if I hadn't been able to stop in time.


Everyone who gets hit is not a looser. It can just happen, regardless
of the rider's skill level. I was hit by a turning car riding lane
center going the speed of traffic -- got knocked out and took an
ambulance ride. The guy was uninsured and a looser. I was a
poster-boy for taking the lane. Meanwhile, I've never been hit while
doing oodles of stupid ****. It's the Mr. Magoo principle, minus the
high voltage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8GTHXTEvIc A lot of
the people killed around her were JRA in bike lanes and got squashed
by drunks, who, based on my experience as an ambulance driver,
generally do more carnage than they receive. I believe alcohol helps
prevent injury, so I always engage in alcohol prophylaxis before
riding.


Did that yesterday. I found my old coffee thermos from the days when I
still had to commute. So in the morning I pre-chilled it with crushed
ice, dumped the ice and slowly filled in an IPA that I had brewed
myself. It rode along in the left pannier and after a sandwich lunch way
out there I enjoyed, along with this view:

http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/SouthFork1.JPG

Some ice cubes must have clumped and stuck in there because I had ice in
the beer. After 2h of riding in the hot sun it was still almost too cold
to drink. But delicious.

The sandwiches were made with trub bread, baked from the fermentation
residue (trub) of one of the beers I brewed. Just imagine, homemade
bread, cold homebrew beer, a nice challenging singletrack and lots of
great views. Totally quiet, just the occasional chirp of a bird. Later
rush hour started down on the river. On a weekday. I couldn't believe it.

http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/SouthFork2.JPG

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 7/14/2017 1:32 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 14, 2017 at 8:22:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:


I've never had one of those crashes in my entire cycling career. That's
45 years of adult cycling, plus lots of kid and teen cycling. That's
commuting, touring, utility riding, recreational riding in all sorts of
environments.

What are you doing wrong, Joerg?

Everyone who gets hit is not a looser. It can just happen, regardless of the rider's skill level.

Of course. A super-competent rider can have disastrously bad luck one
day, just as an incompetent rider can have good luck.

But I believe incompetence does correlate with higher crash counts. And
vice-versa, of course.

I don't buy "I'm an excellent rider. My crashes are just because it's
so dangerous around here." And I don't buy "It's just luck that you
haven't crashed in 45 years."

(P.S. I'm pretty sure "looser" vs. "loser" is one of the internet's most
common misspellings.)


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 7/14/2017 4:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-14 07:42, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/14/2017 10:07 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-13 19:50, John B. wrote:


I researched the question and from the actual reported numbers, in
2015, driving a car was 43 times more dangerious then riding a bicycle
on the roads.

Why aren't you saying "driving a car is dangerious"?


Per mile it is less dangerous than riding a bicycle. That's fact.

And per mile, walking is more dangerous than riding a bicycle. That's a
fact, too.


Veering off topic again which you seem to be doing a lot. Again, we were
talking about cycling versus motoring, _not_ walking.

You want to make only comparisons that portray cycling as dangerous.
The comparisons that show it to be safe are the ones you dislike.

You're an anti-cycling fear monger.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2017-07-14 15:27, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/14/2017 4:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-14 07:42, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/14/2017 10:07 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-13 19:50, John B. wrote:


I researched the question and from the actual reported numbers, in
2015, driving a car was 43 times more dangerious then riding a bicycle
on the roads.

Why aren't you saying "driving a car is dangerious"?


Per mile it is less dangerous than riding a bicycle. That's fact.

And per mile, walking is more dangerous than riding a bicycle. That's a
fact, too.


Veering off topic again which you seem to be doing a lot. Again, we
were talking about cycling versus motoring, _not_ walking.

You want to make only comparisons that portray cycling as dangerous. The
comparisons that show it to be safe are the ones you dislike.

You're an anti-cycling fear monger.


Nonsense. We were discussing two different modes of transportation,
cycling versus automotive. You didn't like the statistics for that so
you evaded and went into another topic.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-07-14 15:21, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/14/2017 1:32 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 14, 2017 at 8:22:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:


I've never had one of those crashes in my entire cycling career. That's
45 years of adult cycling, plus lots of kid and teen cycling. That's
commuting, touring, utility riding, recreational riding in all sorts of
environments.

What are you doing wrong, Joerg?

Everyone who gets hit is not a looser. It can just happen, regardless
of the rider's skill level.

Of course. A super-competent rider can have disastrously bad luck one
day, just as an incompetent rider can have good luck.

But I believe incompetence does correlate with higher crash counts. And
vice-versa, of course.

I don't buy "I'm an excellent rider. My crashes are just because it's
so dangerous around here." And I don't buy "It's just luck that you
haven't crashed in 45 years."


That's exactly how anti-safety-belt crusaders argued. Luckily
legislators didn't listen to those.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Friday, July 14, 2017 at 3:21:38 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/14/2017 1:32 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 14, 2017 at 8:22:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:


I've never had one of those crashes in my entire cycling career. That's
45 years of adult cycling, plus lots of kid and teen cycling. That's
commuting, touring, utility riding, recreational riding in all sorts of
environments.

What are you doing wrong, Joerg?

Everyone who gets hit is not a looser. It can just happen, regardless of the rider's skill level.

Of course. A super-competent rider can have disastrously bad luck one
day, just as an incompetent rider can have good luck.

Chad Reed at MillVille:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC4f9TCg4zw

On 7/14/17 3:38 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-14 15:21, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/14/2017 1:32 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 14, 2017 at 8:22:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:


I've never had one of those crashes in my entire cycling career.
That's
45 years of adult cycling, plus lots of kid and teen cycling. That's
commuting, touring, utility riding, recreational riding in all sorts of
environments.

What are you doing wrong, Joerg?

Everyone who gets hit is not a looser. It can just happen, regardless
of the rider's skill level.

Of course. A super-competent rider can have disastrously bad luck one
day, just as an incompetent rider can have good luck.

But I believe incompetence does correlate with higher crash counts. And
vice-versa, of course.

I don't buy "I'm an excellent rider. My crashes are just because it's
so dangerous around here." And I don't buy "It's just luck that you
haven't crashed in 45 years."


That's exactly how anti-safety-belt crusaders argued. Luckily
legislators didn't listen to those.

Precisely.

An example of one is not proof. The one time I was hit it was a hit and
run turning in front of me. He took off. We got his license number. The
police did nothing.

You have to laugh when someone insists that just because they have been
incredibly lucky that that proves that it's okay to do exceedingly
stupid things.

On 2017-07-14 12:36, wrote:
On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 7:42:52 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 07:34:12 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 5:35:20 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 07:02:37 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-11 18:00, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 07:40:23 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-10 19:09, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 12:26:05 PM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote:
On 2017-07-10 10:54, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2017 1:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-09 11:32, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/9/2017 10:44 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-08 15:59, jbeattie wrote:


When was the last time you were hurt on a
bike? Were you hit by a car?


No but that is because I am primarily using a
mountain bike, the way it was meant to be
used. The reason I got hurt a lot as a kid
was that I used a regular bicycle on
motocross tracks without wearing any
protective gear.

Other people's accidents did not always
involved a direct collision but many were
caused by evasive action because of car
drivers (often truck drivers).

Maybe we should do a little survey of posters
to this discussion group. What was your last
on-road bike-related injury? Was it because
you were hit by a car? Was it because you were
taking evasive action to avoid being hit by a
car? Or what was the cause?

I suppose if people prefer, they could give
counts of all their bike injury incidents
instead of just the last one.

I don't have much to contribute. Since 1972: I
slid out on gravel at about 5 mph creeping down
a very steep, short hill on a city street. I
scraped my knee. And the front forks of our
custom tandem snapped off on a bumpy road at
about 10 mph or less. I banged up my shoulder.
So that's one crash with the most common cause,
which is the road surface; and one crash by a
relatively rare cause, component failure.

My wife's on road crashes are also two. She
was on the back of the tandem when it crashed,
but she wasn't injured, just shaken up. And
many years ago, on a club ride, someone slammed
on their brakes unnecessarily in front of her.
She avoided that person as she stopped, but
another rider ran into her from behind and
knocked her down. Again, no injury, just a
fall. We were about 20 miles into an 80 mile
ride, which we all finished.

More detail on the final crash above: The
person who caused the chain reaction crash had
slammed on the brakes because they were afraid
of a passing truck. But none of the others
(including me, leading the ride) braked because
of the truck. It just wasn't necessary at all.
So that crash was actually caused not by the
truck, but by timidity.


No, it was caused by reckless cyclist behavior.
Every respectable teacher in driver's ed teaches
their students to keep an adequate distance from
the vehicle up front. One Mississippi, two
Mississippi. Simple. Failing to do so will one
day result in a crash like you described. It
doesn't have to be timidity. It could be as
simple as an animal running into the road.

You're deflecting again.

Tell us about your recent injuries, Joerg. Tell us
about their causes. Restrict it to on-road if you
like. I'm saying most bike injuries are minor and
do not involve cars. You're claiming something
else. What's your experience?


Depends on what you call "recent". I had a 15+ year
cycling hiatus on account of lacking cycle path
infrastructure. When that got better I started riding
again in 2013. No road injuries since then but
several evasive actions required because of
motorists.

No f****** way! You were off your bike for 15 years
because of lack of "cycle path infrastructure"?
Incroyable. I rode to work or school most every day
for decades without so much as a whiff of cycle path
infrastructure.


We had a few nasty accidents and cyclist fatalities in
our neighborhood. That was enough. Except for hardcore
training riders you rarely saw cyclists. Then they
started putting in bike paths and bike lanes and,
predictably, that substantially changed things. Also for
me. It's that simple.

The same way I never walk to the store (well, now I ride)
even though in Europe we did that all the time. Hardly
anyone else does either. Because it is a 45mph
thoroughfare, no sidewalk and often not even a shoulder.


Joerg, if riding a bicycle is as dangerious, as you
certainly seem to be arguing it is, then all I've can say
is that you are a fool to be doing it.


Where did I ever say that? Riding a bicycle on trails, bike
paths, bike lanes and in low traffic streets is a ratehr safe
affair.

Try to distinguish a little more what was said in detail.

"Where did I ever say that?"

Actually you have, since you started posting here, had two
main themes. One was how absolutely **** poor commercial
bicycles and their parts were in comparison to your vaunted SUV
automobile, and second, how dangerious it is to ride a bicycle.
Every time you read about a bicycle accident you have posted
something like,"See there! Another bicyclist killed on the
roads".

When Frank, I, and several others have tried to tell you that
bicycling is a relatively benign activity you have argues that
"No! No! No! It IS Dangerious".

Come on John, you know very well that a lot of people are
frightened of traffic. So what? We aren't and can get along fine
despite their opinions. Dan (Danimal) Tonelli who used to put in
20,000 mile years like clockwork won't even ride now. He runs
despite the fact that it is more dangerous - he just doesn't see
it that way.

Being frightened of something and something being dangerious are
two very different things. Whether it is riding in city traffic to
shooting elephants.

While admittedly finding an accurate of just how many people
actually ride a bicycle is probably impossible the fact is that
riding a bike is probably, statistically, one of the safest thing
one can do on the road.

For example, in 2015 there were 35,092 fatalities while driving or
riding in a motor vehicle and 815 while riding a bicycle. Yet
people argue how dangerious bicycling is and ignore automobiles.

How many times do you hear people say, "Oh! I'd be afraid to drive
a car. It is so dangerious."

I would say that you are going WAY out on a limb by thinking that
your judgement of what is and what isn't dangerous is any better than
someone else's.


Just about anyone in our neighborhood whom I wanted to convince to ride
along with me waved off when I mentioned that I usually take Green
Valley Road home. That's several miles on the shoulder of a 55mph county
road, mostly uphill, meaning a cyclists spends a lot of time on it
unless they are of Tour de France caliber.

So where do these people ride? I mean the few that ride at all. Most of
them on the stationary bike in the den and their often rather expensive
real bikes are garage queens. The (small) rest of the bike owners do the
usual. They transport their bikes to the American River Bike Trail,
park, unload, ride, come back, load the bike on the rack, drive home.
Needless to say that make bike riding very safe for them and drive down
accident numbers per mile even though they are still higher than for cars.

Utility riding? Errand runs per bike? Commuting? Getting the groceries
by bike? Forget it. That you only find in areas with nice bike
infrastructure but not in the village where I live.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Friday, July 14, 2017 at 7:59:49 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Big Snip
Just about anyone in our neighborhood whom I wanted to convince to ride
along with me waved off when I mentioned that I usually take Green
Valley Road home. That's several miles on the shoulder of a 55mph county
road, mostly uphill, meaning a cyclists spends a lot of time on it
unless they are of Tour de France caliber.

So where do these people ride? I mean the few that ride at all. Most of
them on the stationary bike in the den and their often rather expensive
real bikes are garage queens. The (small) rest of the bike owners do the
usual. They transport their bikes to the American River Bike Trail,
park, unload, ride, come back, load the bike on the rack, drive home.
Needless to say that make bike riding very safe for them and drive down
accident numbers per mile even though they are still higher than for cars.

Utility riding? Errand runs per bike? Commuting? Getting the groceries
by bike? Forget it. That you only find in areas with nice bike
infrastructure but not in the village where I live.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Statistic sho that those people have a greater risk of having an accident in their car going to a from their bicycle riding area than they would ifthey were ridingtheir bicycle.

Funny how everyone YOU know is so TERRIFIED of riding a bicycle.

Cheers