Handlebar rotation

OK, first I'll say that I understand the benefits of discs for muddy
mountain biking or lots of rainy commuting.

On 7/16/2017 12:59 PM, Joerg wrote: As for cable discs they are
probably ok on a road bike, not on an MTB. Aside from less brake force
most have the other disadvantage that the inner pad remains staionary
so the disc veers to the side more and more as they wear.
The "less brake force" thing puzzles me. I rode a friend's mountain
bike though our local forest a few months ago. Before I mounted up, he
warned me about the hydraulic disc brakes, telling me to not use more
than one finger. He said it took him a while to get used to them.

The amount of mechanical advantage is a design choice, whether we're
talking about caliper brakes, cable discs or hydraulic discs. I don't
see the benefit of designing brakes that can easily send you over the
bars. I think a bicyclist should expect to squeeze hard every once in a
while.

If I ever need a new road bike it's going to have disc brakes or I won't
buy.

I know they're very fashionable right now, but I would actively avoid
buying a road bike with disc brakes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 7:56:31 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-16 05:50, Duane wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 07:51:02 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-14 17:56, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 07:07:41 -0700, Joerg
wrote:



Better in what context? I've repeatedly told you that I have a bike
that not only doesn't have disk brakes but has those cheap and nasty
vee brakes that will skid either front, rear or both wheels on dry
asphalt pavement. And! It will do exactly the same thing in the rain.


I doubt they will do that in driving rain or when you have just gone
through a muddy creek. Sorry, on that I do not believe you. Or maybe you
never rode that bike in really foul weather and had to brake hard out of
the blue.


Joerg, when you first started your rants about the superiority of your
vaunted disk brakes and how normal brakes wouldn't stop in the rain I
tested your hypothesis using a bike that I had converted from a MTB to
a "knock-about" bike by changing the front forks to solid and I
believe that the geometry is at least similar to a normal MTB.

As part of the rebuild I had replaces the old brakes with Shimano vee
brakes and when I bought them the shop guy has asked me whether I
"wanted the expensive ones or the cheap ones" and I took the cheap
ones, so essentially one might say that my bike is equipped with cheap
vee brakes.

I first tested the brakes on a steep hill. Coasting down hill at
approximately 30 kph I applied the brakes as hard as I could and both
wheels skidded on the asphalt road. I next tried the same thing using
only one brake, first the rear and then the front. Same thing, I could
lock either wheel.

O.K. Joerg is wrong on dry pavement.


John, when do you learn to read more carefully what other people write?
I never wrote rim brakes are much worse in dry weather. They are fine in
dry weather, as long as you don't mind buying and spoking in new rims
once in a while.


The next hard rain, and let me tell you, over here when it rains it is
a cloudburst, I tried it again in the wet, raining so hard that it
hurt.

Same thing, I could skid either front rear or both wheels with no
problems.

So Joerg is wrong in torrential downpours.

So, I ask again, "Better in what context?"

I might add, that with at least one of my Bangkok bikes equipped with
dual pivot caliper brakes I can skid the tires in a heavy rain. I
don't normally like to ride in heavy traffic in a heavy rain storm but
on one day I got caught about 2 km from home and elected to continue
as I was already soaking wet. A car drove out of a parking lot in
front of me and I grabbed the brakes. Both tires skidded.

--
Cheers,


We were caught in a thunderstorm a couple weeks ago. Heavy rain. I went
right through a stop sign with my brakes full on. So did a couple others.


Exactly. It is not that they do not work. It is the 1-2sec delay or what
some cyclists call "freefall". Someone cuts you off, you pull the brakes
and ... nothing. That can make the difference between being able to slow
down in time and a crash.


We found a roof to hide under for the few minutes it took for the rain to
stop. The first few tries, the brakes squealed but stopped me. Then they
were fine. Braking dried them.

No MTBs, we were all on road bikes. No ceramic wheels as far as I know.
Maybe MTBs have some magical stopping property that I don't know about but
in a full downpour my brakes didn't work well. Mine are SRAM Force which
are fairly high end brakes and usually stop on a dime.

https://www.raceviewcycles.com/SRAM-...n&currency=CAD

Yesterday we got caught in the rain for about 25 minutes. Not torrential
rain, just rain. Brakes squealed a bit but stopped ok. I don't plan to
switch to disks any time soon but I can see someone riding in rain a lot
would consider it. As far as riding through creeks, I would expect my
brakes to not work in the creek but to be fine once I got out of the water.


MTB with good hydraulic brakes have immense stopping power. Most of all
the brake force comes on instantaneously and at 100% performance. Not at
50% or 30%. For us MTB riders it's not just rain, it is mud puddles,
creek crossings and such. Afterwards the rims are dripping wet. Worst
case muddy and then a rim brake has a similar effect as pressing 25-grit
sandpaper against the rims. That is a horrid sound. You should see the
rims of my old MTB. After less than 1000mi they are almost shot.

I work with a guy who commutes year-round and says that he was going
through a front rim every one to two years. He just switched to cable
discs, which are plenty good for road bikes and less fussy than
hydraulic. Both of us ride a lot in the rain, and the grit squeezed
against the rim works like a lathe. I've been riding a commuter with
discs for probably 15 years.

I like the hydraulic road disc brakes on my Roubaix but acknowledge that
they are entirely unnecessary during the summer. I would not bother with
the added complexity for a fast bike, e.g. the modern crop of disc
equipped dry weather racing bikes. I got caught in sunshine yesterday,
and my discs were useless!

-- Jay Beattie.





Lol. I have to say when I was riding through that downpour I thought, "I
guess this is what Jay is talking about."



--
duane

On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 11:28:34 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
OK, first I'll say that I understand the benefits of discs for muddy
mountain biking or lots of rainy commuting.

On 7/16/2017 12:59 PM, Joerg wrote: As for cable discs they are
probably ok on a road bike, not on an MTB. Aside from less brake force
most have the other disadvantage that the inner pad remains staionary
so the disc veers to the side more and more as they wear.
The "less brake force" thing puzzles me. I rode a friend's mountain
bike though our local forest a few months ago. Before I mounted up, he
warned me about the hydraulic disc brakes, telling me to not use more
than one finger. He said it took him a while to get used to them.

The amount of mechanical advantage is a design choice, whether we're
talking about caliper brakes, cable discs or hydraulic discs. I don't
see the benefit of designing brakes that can easily send you over the
bars. I think a bicyclist should expect to squeeze hard every once in a
while.

If I ever need a new road bike it's going to have disc brakes or I won't
buy.

I know they're very fashionable right now, but I would actively avoid
buying a road bike with disc brakes.

I absolutely agree with you Frank. Oh the Trek HiFi full suspension the disks worked fine because of the O*_UPUP weight of the bike. But on my Redline Xcross that brakes are too powerful for one finger and you have to use utmost precaution.

I installed TRP 9.0 V-brakes on the Ridley cross bike and they are the best of all possible worlds.

On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 11:47:22 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 7:56:31 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-16 05:50, Duane wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 07:51:02 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-14 17:56, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 07:07:41 -0700, Joerg
wrote:



Better in what context? I've repeatedly told you that I have a bike
that not only doesn't have disk brakes but has those cheap and nasty
vee brakes that will skid either front, rear or both wheels on dry
asphalt pavement. And! It will do exactly the same thing in the rain.


I doubt they will do that in driving rain or when you have just gone
through a muddy creek. Sorry, on that I do not believe you. Or maybe you
never rode that bike in really foul weather and had to brake hard out of
the blue.


Joerg, when you first started your rants about the superiority of your
vaunted disk brakes and how normal brakes wouldn't stop in the rain I
tested your hypothesis using a bike that I had converted from a MTB to
a "knock-about" bike by changing the front forks to solid and I
believe that the geometry is at least similar to a normal MTB.

As part of the rebuild I had replaces the old brakes with Shimano vee
brakes and when I bought them the shop guy has asked me whether I
"wanted the expensive ones or the cheap ones" and I took the cheap
ones, so essentially one might say that my bike is equipped with cheap
vee brakes.

I first tested the brakes on a steep hill. Coasting down hill at
approximately 30 kph I applied the brakes as hard as I could and both
wheels skidded on the asphalt road. I next tried the same thing using
only one brake, first the rear and then the front. Same thing, I could
lock either wheel.

O.K. Joerg is wrong on dry pavement.


John, when do you learn to read more carefully what other people write?
I never wrote rim brakes are much worse in dry weather. They are fine in
dry weather, as long as you don't mind buying and spoking in new rims
once in a while.


The next hard rain, and let me tell you, over here when it rains it is
a cloudburst, I tried it again in the wet, raining so hard that it
hurt.

Same thing, I could skid either front rear or both wheels with no
problems.

So Joerg is wrong in torrential downpours.

So, I ask again, "Better in what context?"

I might add, that with at least one of my Bangkok bikes equipped with
dual pivot caliper brakes I can skid the tires in a heavy rain. I
don't normally like to ride in heavy traffic in a heavy rain storm but
on one day I got caught about 2 km from home and elected to continue
as I was already soaking wet. A car drove out of a parking lot in
front of me and I grabbed the brakes. Both tires skidded.

--
Cheers,


We were caught in a thunderstorm a couple weeks ago. Heavy rain. I went
right through a stop sign with my brakes full on. So did a couple others.


Exactly. It is not that they do not work. It is the 1-2sec delay or what
some cyclists call "freefall". Someone cuts you off, you pull the brakes
and ... nothing. That can make the difference between being able to slow
down in time and a crash.


We found a roof to hide under for the few minutes it took for the rain to
stop. The first few tries, the brakes squealed but stopped me. Then they
were fine. Braking dried them.

No MTBs, we were all on road bikes. No ceramic wheels as far as I know.
Maybe MTBs have some magical stopping property that I don't know about but
in a full downpour my brakes didn't work well. Mine are SRAM Force which
are fairly high end brakes and usually stop on a dime.

https://www.raceviewcycles.com/SRAM-...n&currency=CAD

Yesterday we got caught in the rain for about 25 minutes. Not torrential
rain, just rain. Brakes squealed a bit but stopped ok. I don't plan to
switch to disks any time soon but I can see someone riding in rain a lot
would consider it. As far as riding through creeks, I would expect my
brakes to not work in the creek but to be fine once I got out of the water.


MTB with good hydraulic brakes have immense stopping power. Most of all
the brake force comes on instantaneously and at 100% performance. Not at
50% or 30%. For us MTB riders it's not just rain, it is mud puddles,
creek crossings and such. Afterwards the rims are dripping wet. Worst
case muddy and then a rim brake has a similar effect as pressing 25-grit
sandpaper against the rims. That is a horrid sound. You should see the
rims of my old MTB. After less than 1000mi they are almost shot.

I work with a guy who commutes year-round and says that he was going
through a front rim every one to two years. He just switched to cable
discs, which are plenty good for road bikes and less fussy than
hydraulic. Both of us ride a lot in the rain, and the grit squeezed
against the rim works like a lathe. I've been riding a commuter with
discs for probably 15 years.

I like the hydraulic road disc brakes on my Roubaix but acknowledge that
they are entirely unnecessary during the summer. I would not bother with
the added complexity for a fast bike, e.g. the modern crop of disc
equipped dry weather racing bikes. I got caught in sunshine yesterday,
and my discs were useless!

-- Jay Beattie.





Lol. I have to say when I was riding through that downpour I thought, "I
guess this is what Jay is talking about."

Disks come on just like V-brakes in the wet - they have to scrub the water off of the disk. Because of this you are VERY likely to put on too much brake. V-brakes take a little longer and they are not as powerful - but in my opinion that is better.

On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 12:50:52 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 07:51:02 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-14 17:56, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 07:07:41 -0700, Joerg
wrote:



Better in what context? I've repeatedly told you that I have a bike
that not only doesn't have disk brakes but has those cheap and nasty
vee brakes that will skid either front, rear or both wheels on dry
asphalt pavement. And! It will do exactly the same thing in the rain.


I doubt they will do that in driving rain or when you have just gone
through a muddy creek. Sorry, on that I do not believe you. Or maybe you
never rode that bike in really foul weather and had to brake hard out of
the blue.


Joerg, when you first started your rants about the superiority of your
vaunted disk brakes and how normal brakes wouldn't stop in the rain I
tested your hypothesis using a bike that I had converted from a MTB to
a "knock-about" bike by changing the front forks to solid and I
believe that the geometry is at least similar to a normal MTB.

As part of the rebuild I had replaces the old brakes with Shimano vee
brakes and when I bought them the shop guy has asked me whether I
"wanted the expensive ones or the cheap ones" and I took the cheap
ones, so essentially one might say that my bike is equipped with cheap
vee brakes.

I first tested the brakes on a steep hill. Coasting down hill at
approximately 30 kph I applied the brakes as hard as I could and both
wheels skidded on the asphalt road. I next tried the same thing using
only one brake, first the rear and then the front. Same thing, I could
lock either wheel.

O.K. Joerg is wrong on dry pavement.

The next hard rain, and let me tell you, over here when it rains it is
a cloudburst, I tried it again in the wet, raining so hard that it
hurt.

Same thing, I could skid either front rear or both wheels with no
problems.

So Joerg is wrong in torrential downpours.

So, I ask again, "Better in what context?"

I might add, that with at least one of my Bangkok bikes equipped with
dual pivot caliper brakes I can skid the tires in a heavy rain. I
don't normally like to ride in heavy traffic in a heavy rain storm but
on one day I got caught about 2 km from home and elected to continue
as I was already soaking wet. A car drove out of a parking lot in
front of me and I grabbed the brakes. Both tires skidded.

--
Cheers,


We were caught in a thunderstorm a couple weeks ago. Heavy rain. I went
right through a stop sign with my brakes full on. So did a couple others.
We found a roof to hide under for the few minutes it took for the rain to
stop. The first few tries, the brakes squealed but stopped me. Then they
were fine. Braking dried them.

No MTBs, we were all on road bikes. No ceramic wheels as far as I know.
Maybe MTBs have some magical stopping property that I don't know about but
in a full downpour my brakes didn't work well. Mine are SRAM Force which
are fairly high end brakes and usually stop on a dime.

I can only recount my own experiences :-) And, I might add that since
the original test I have been in the wet a few more times and the MTB
brakes continued to work just as they had the first time.

I haven't checked the "Bangkok Bike" brakes a second time as I really
do not like to ride in torrential rain in heavy traffic.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 12:50:54 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 12:02:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 7:42:52 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

While admittedly finding an accurate of just how many people actually
ride a bicycle is probably impossible the fact is that riding a bike
is probably, statistically, one of the safest thing one can do on the
road.

For example, in 2015 there were 35,092 fatalities while driving or
riding in a motor vehicle and 815 while riding a bicycle. Yet people
argue how dangerious bicycling is and ignore automobiles.

How many times do you hear people say, "Oh! I'd be afraid to drive a
car. It is so dangerious."


John - are you trying to convince the man who drives on busy hill roads alone?

I know what the real chances are and I know that there are people out
there that given a chance would run over a cyclist.

So if anyone wants to exaggerate the dangers in their own minds that's
their business now isn't it? And because YOU feel safe what business is
it of yours or mine to try to convince them otherwise? As I said, some
of the very longest distance riders I know have quit because they
couldn't take the traffic anymore.

The facts of the matter are that, in 2012, according to NHTSA
statistics there were 734 cyclists deaths and 33,561 total traffic
fatalities. Bicycles amounted to only 2.1% of all traffic deaths.

--
Cheers,

John B.



And bikes amounted to what percentage of all traffic?

You will note, I hope, that I prefaced my remarks with the comment
that "While admittedly finding an accurate of just how many people
actually ride a bicycle is probably impossible" but the point is that
the usual news report says something like "Horrors! Bicycle deaths in
California were XYZ in 20xx"

See:
http://www.denverpost.com/2017/06/03...uries-cycling/
http://www.latimes.com/business/auto...027-story.html
http://tinyurl.com/ycl3vtm9

If the nation's news services see fit to announce these astonishing
statistics why should I be different?

But according to the statistics I do find
http://tinyurl.com/ybz2vz69
there were 65.67 million cyclists in 2015 and
http://www.pedbikeinfo.org/data/factsheet_crash.cfm
tells me that in 2015 818 cyclists were killed.

So tell me, what percent of cyclists were killed in 2015?

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 07:56:26 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-16 05:50, Duane wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 07:51:02 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-14 17:56, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 07:07:41 -0700, Joerg
wrote:



Better in what context? I've repeatedly told you that I have a bike
that not only doesn't have disk brakes but has those cheap and nasty
vee brakes that will skid either front, rear or both wheels on dry
asphalt pavement. And! It will do exactly the same thing in the rain.


I doubt they will do that in driving rain or when you have just gone
through a muddy creek. Sorry, on that I do not believe you. Or maybe you
never rode that bike in really foul weather and had to brake hard out of
the blue.


Joerg, when you first started your rants about the superiority of your
vaunted disk brakes and how normal brakes wouldn't stop in the rain I
tested your hypothesis using a bike that I had converted from a MTB to
a "knock-about" bike by changing the front forks to solid and I
believe that the geometry is at least similar to a normal MTB.

As part of the rebuild I had replaces the old brakes with Shimano vee
brakes and when I bought them the shop guy has asked me whether I
"wanted the expensive ones or the cheap ones" and I took the cheap
ones, so essentially one might say that my bike is equipped with cheap
vee brakes.

I first tested the brakes on a steep hill. Coasting down hill at
approximately 30 kph I applied the brakes as hard as I could and both
wheels skidded on the asphalt road. I next tried the same thing using
only one brake, first the rear and then the front. Same thing, I could
lock either wheel.

O.K. Joerg is wrong on dry pavement.


John, when do you learn to read more carefully what other people write?
I never wrote rim brakes are much worse in dry weather. They are fine in
dry weather, as long as you don't mind buying and spoking in new rims
once in a while.


And if you read the rest of my post you will discover that I also
tested the brakes in a torrential downpour.



The next hard rain, and let me tell you, over here when it rains it is
a cloudburst, I tried it again in the wet, raining so hard that it
hurt.

Same thing, I could skid either front rear or both wheels with no
problems.

So Joerg is wrong in torrential downpours.

So, I ask again, "Better in what context?"

I might add, that with at least one of my Bangkok bikes equipped with
dual pivot caliper brakes I can skid the tires in a heavy rain. I
don't normally like to ride in heavy traffic in a heavy rain storm but
on one day I got caught about 2 km from home and elected to continue
as I was already soaking wet. A car drove out of a parking lot in
front of me and I grabbed the brakes. Both tires skidded.

--
Cheers,


We were caught in a thunderstorm a couple weeks ago. Heavy rain. I went
right through a stop sign with my brakes full on. So did a couple others.


Exactly. It is not that they do not work. It is the 1-2sec delay or what
some cyclists call "freefall". Someone cuts you off, you pull the brakes
and ... nothing. That can make the difference between being able to slow
down in time and a crash.


We found a roof to hide under for the few minutes it took for the rain to
stop. The first few tries, the brakes squealed but stopped me. Then they
were fine. Braking dried them.

No MTBs, we were all on road bikes. No ceramic wheels as far as I know.
Maybe MTBs have some magical stopping property that I don't know about but
in a full downpour my brakes didn't work well. Mine are SRAM Force which
are fairly high end brakes and usually stop on a dime.

https://www.raceviewcycles.com/SRAM-...n&currency=CAD

Yesterday we got caught in the rain for about 25 minutes. Not torrential
rain, just rain. Brakes squealed a bit but stopped ok. I don't plan to
switch to disks any time soon but I can see someone riding in rain a lot
would consider it. As far as riding through creeks, I would expect my
brakes to not work in the creek but to be fine once I got out of the water.


MTB with good hydraulic brakes have immense stopping power. Most of all
the brake force comes on instantaneously and at 100% performance. Not at
50% or 30%. For us MTB riders it's not just rain, it is mud puddles,
creek crossings and such. Afterwards the rims are dripping wet. Worst
case muddy and then a rim brake has a similar effect as pressing 25-grit
sandpaper against the rims. That is a horrid sound. You should see the
rims of my old MTB. After less than 1000mi they are almost shot.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 14:28:26 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

OK, first I'll say that I understand the benefits of discs for muddy
mountain biking or lots of rainy commuting.

On 7/16/2017 12:59 PM, Joerg wrote: As for cable discs they are
probably ok on a road bike, not on an MTB. Aside from less brake force
most have the other disadvantage that the inner pad remains staionary
so the disc veers to the side more and more as they wear.
The "less brake force" thing puzzles me. I rode a friend's mountain
bike though our local forest a few months ago. Before I mounted up, he
warned me about the hydraulic disc brakes, telling me to not use more
than one finger. He said it took him a while to get used to them.

The amount of mechanical advantage is a design choice, whether we're
talking about caliper brakes, cable discs or hydraulic discs. I don't
see the benefit of designing brakes that can easily send you over the
bars. I think a bicyclist should expect to squeeze hard every once in a
while.

If I ever need a new road bike it's going to have disc brakes or I won't
buy.

I know they're very fashionable right now, but I would actively avoid
buying a road bike with disc brakes.

There is a saying, something to the effect that "if it ain't broke,
don't fix it", that would seem to apply here :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. wrote:
On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 12:50:54 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 12:02:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 7:42:52 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

While admittedly finding an accurate of just how many people actually
ride a bicycle is probably impossible the fact is that riding a bike
is probably, statistically, one of the safest thing one can do on the
road.

For example, in 2015 there were 35,092 fatalities while driving or
riding in a motor vehicle and 815 while riding a bicycle. Yet people
argue how dangerious bicycling is and ignore automobiles.

How many times do you hear people say, "Oh! I'd be afraid to drive a
car. It is so dangerious."


John - are you trying to convince the man who drives on busy hill roads alone?

I know what the real chances are and I know that there are people out
there that given a chance would run over a cyclist.

So if anyone wants to exaggerate the dangers in their own minds that's
their business now isn't it? And because YOU feel safe what business is
it of yours or mine to try to convince them otherwise? As I said, some
of the very longest distance riders I know have quit because they
couldn't take the traffic anymore.

The facts of the matter are that, in 2012, according to NHTSA
statistics there were 734 cyclists deaths and 33,561 total traffic
fatalities. Bicycles amounted to only 2.1% of all traffic deaths.

--
Cheers,

John B.



And bikes amounted to what percentage of all traffic?

You will note, I hope, that I prefaced my remarks with the comment
that "While admittedly finding an accurate of just how many people
actually ride a bicycle is probably impossible" but the point is that
the usual news report says something like "Horrors! Bicycle deaths in
California were XYZ in 20xx"

See:
http://www.denverpost.com/2017/06/03...uries-cycling/
http://www.latimes.com/business/auto...027-story.html
http://tinyurl.com/ycl3vtm9

If the nation's news services see fit to announce these astonishing
statistics why should I be different?

But according to the statistics I do find
http://tinyurl.com/ybz2vz69
there were 65.67 million cyclists in 2015 and
http://www.pedbikeinfo.org/data/factsheet_crash.cfm
tells me that in 2015 818 cyclists were killed.

So tell me, what percent of cyclists were killed in 2015?

--
Cheers,

John B.



Your statement was that 2% of traffic fatalities were cyclists. To know
whether or not that is significant you have to know what percentage of
traffic is made up of cyclists. As you stated, I don't think we know
that.

--
duane

On 7/15/17 3:19 PM, Joerg wrote:

snip

Can we move to chain lube now?

This morning I was talking to an older bike mechanic, and cycling
instructor, who moonlights over at a major bicycle company in my area,
about chain lubrication. I told him I had just worked on three bikes and
run the chains through a chain cleaning device. He poo-pooed this saying
it's cheaper just to put on a new chain and that while the chain
cleaners were the best way to clean a chain, they were too messy and
solvent spewed everywhere. But he was thinking of it being cheaper in
terms of a bicycle shop charging $50 an hour labor versus the cost of a
6/7/8 speed chain. And some shops have commercial grade chain cleaning
tools hooked up to a solvent tank with hoses, so you don't have to keep
manually changing the solvent.

I don't find those devices messy. I have a big cement mixing tub that is
long enough to stretch from the chainwheels to the jockey wheels, and
all the solvent that is thrown out of the device goes into the tub. It
can take five or six solvent changes before the chain is clean, but both
the inside and outside are clean. I dump the dirty solvent in the tub as
well and then put it into a bottle for recycling. It's about five
minutes of work per chain, plus the time cleaning the gears with pipe
cleaners and shop rags.

The mechanic was recalling a conversation with John Forester regarding
chain waxing. Forester has a formula in his book for chain lubrication
consisting of white gas and 90W gear oil and he says to put in a chunk
of paraffin and not to worry if it doesn't dissolve. The mechanic asked
Forester why it doesn't matter if the paraffin doesn't dissolve, and he
said that the paraffin doesn't help at all with lubrication, it actually
makes things worse if it ends up on the chain, but that so many
old-school cyclists believe in paraffin that he put it into the formula
to placate them, knowing that as long as it just sat there in a chunk,
and most of it didn't dissolve, that it wouldn't hurt anything.

Or global warming? :-)

Yesterday I went on a Silicon Valley Bicycle Coalition sponsored ice
cream ride. It was very hot. The ride was only about 6 miles but we rode
from Cupertino to San Jose, another 10 miles each way. Coming home I was
getting overheated, and my water was really warm. This proves that
global warming is real.