SIX thousand and FIVE hundred lumens !!!!!!!!!!

Joerg writes:

On 2018-10-04 18:13, Radey Shouman wrote:
Joerg writes:

On 2018-10-04 14:43, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 10/4/2018 2:12 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-10-04 10:40, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/4/2018 11:02 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-10-01 15:14, wrote:
http://reviews.mtbr.com/magicshine-l...2018-interbike

The beloved Magicshine brings us what we finally need in bike lights.
Thanks to all the gods. 6500 lumens! I think you can have either
5000 or 1500 or all 6500 lumens. Thankfully now we will not only be
able to blind everyone else on the road or trail, but we can now
cause their eyeballs to burst into flames and maybe hopefully their
heads will also explode. Yeah!!!!!!


This one for their rear light is weird, quote "A sleep mode is
triggered after one minute of inaction to save power, any vibration
will immediately re-activate the unit".

So the light will go out while waiting at an intersection? Really?
Nobody raised their hand during the design review? Was there even a
design review?

First, their definition of "sleep mode" may not be "goes out." It could,
I suppose, just become much dimmer. In any case, it would be easy enough
to jiggle the bike a bit to turn it back on.


Not very smart on the part of the design engineers.


But it's probably not necessary. Ohio law specifically permits lights
that go out when the bike is stationary, ...


Not a smart decision by the lawmakers.


... and there's never been a report
of a death or serious injury caused by that feature.


Grandpa drove without a seat belt all his life and never go hurt, so ...

Grandpa also rode his bicycle without a six foot tall safety flag, a
siren, a bell constantly and automatically ringing every time he
moved, pads on his knees, pads on his elbows, body armor protecting
his spine. Why are you not using all those measures?

(Actually, maybe you are. With you, we never know.)



BTW, it even happens from the front, even by police officers:

https://fox2now.com/2018/07/30/polic...hone-in-video/


Nothing can replace bright light other than even brighter
lights. Which both of my bikes have.

Joerg, you're the master of the worldwide search for the vanishingly
rare exception. That is NOT a common crash type, as any dispassionate
search of the literature would shoe. And you have no evidence that
your daytime headlight would have prevented it.

Looks like the video has been taken down, at least fox2now.com can't
find it.


Works fine here.

Works for me now, no more "video unavailable".


... The accident happened in broad daylight, no vehicles save the
cop SUV and the cyclist visible for miles, cyclist waiting at an
intersection, I think for a stop sign. Total f*up on the part of the
cop, who was more or less apologetic. A daytime running light would not
have helped.


Not true. I clearly found that drivers notice me much better with
bright lights. Even in the corner of their eyes is enough because it
"distracts" them in a good way. All it takes is noticing a cyclist a
second or two earlier and a collision can be avoided.

Seriously? The cop would have looked up from his phone if only the
cyclist had had a light? Sounds like magic.


Easy to try. While distracted with some chore in your home, have
someone walk towards you pointing a bright but not blinding LED
flashlight. It works. A human eye is not insensitive in the directions
where one does not look, just less sensitive. The "muffling effect"
needs to be overcome and intense light is just about the only method
to achieve that.

This wasn't inside, it was outside in bright daylight, looked like
hardly a cloud in the sky. A really bright light is required to make
much difference in that case.

Other clue: You are driving a car, looking ahead into traffic as you
are supposed to do. The dashboard becomes largely unnoticed except for
the occasional glance at the speedometer. However, when the yellow
check engine light, the red oil pressure light, the overtemp light or
the low fuel light comes on it is immediately noticed. Same if someone
behind you flashes their headlights even while you aren't looking into
the rear view mirror.

That only happens if you have the habit, perhaps not completely
conscious, of scanning the dashboard. How do you know it's "immediate"?
You notice it when you notice it, and if it's 10 seconds after the event
that's not a big problem, unlike the case for traffic on the road.

Yet another one: Think about the reason why approaching emergency
vehicles have very bright flashing lights.

In my world they usually turn on their sirens when approaching busy
intersections, especially if they intend to blow the light.

There is a reason why DRL have been mandatory on US motorcycles for a
long time.


--

On 10/5/2018 10:32 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-10-04 20:34, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/4/2018 3:34 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-10-04 12:18, jbeattie wrote:

It takes very little light to be conspicuous at night, and it takes
no additional light to be conspicuous during the day -- assuming
broad daylight without cloud cover or other low-light condition.


My experience is clearly different.

Your experiences are almost always unique, not just different.


Yet strangely, it jibes with that of our government folks. Why do you
think they mandate DRL on motorcycles?

Joerg, you're arguing against yourself (again)!

Please note, the government does NOT mandate daytime running lights on
bicycles!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 05/10/2018 10:28 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-10-04 18:13, Radey Shouman wrote:
Joerg writes:

On 2018-10-04 14:43, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 10/4/2018 2:12 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-10-04 10:40, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/4/2018 11:02 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-10-01 15:14, wrote:
http://reviews.mtbr.com/magicshine-l...2018-interbike

The beloved Magicshine brings us what we finally need in bike
lights.
Thanks to all the gods.Â* 6500 lumens!Â* I think you can have either
5000 or 1500 or all 6500 lumens.Â* Thankfully now we will not
only be
able to blind everyone else on the road or trail, but we can now
cause their eyeballs to burst into flames and maybe hopefully
their
heads will also explode.Â* Yeah!!!!!!


This one for their rear light is weird, quote "A sleep mode is
triggered after one minute of inaction to save power, any vibration
will immediately re-activate the unit".

So the light will go out while waiting at an intersection? Really?
Nobody raised their hand during the design review? Was there even a
design review?

First, their definition of "sleep mode" may not be "goes out." It
could,
I suppose, just become much dimmer. In any case, it would be easy
enough
to jiggle the bike a bit to turn it back on.


Not very smart on the part of the design engineers.


But it's probably not necessary. Ohio law specifically permits
lights
that go out when the bike is stationary, ...


Not a smart decision by the lawmakers.


Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ... and there's never been a
report
of a death or serious injury caused by that feature.


Grandpa drove without a seat belt all his life and never go hurt,
so ...

Grandpa also rode his bicycle without a six foot tall safety flag, a
siren, a bell constantly and automatically ringing every time he
moved, pads on his knees, pads on his elbows, body armor protecting
his spine. Why are you not using all those measures?

(Actually, maybe you are. With you, we never know.)



BTW, it even happens from the front, even by police officers:

https://fox2now.com/2018/07/30/polic...hone-in-video/



Nothing can replace bright light other than even brighter
lights. Which both of my bikes have.

Joerg, you're the master of the worldwide search for the vanishingly
rare exception. That is NOT a common crash type, as any dispassionate
search of the literature would shoe. And you have no evidence that
your daytime headlight would have prevented it.

Looks like the video has been taken down, at least fox2now.com can't
find it.


Works fine here.

Works for me now, no more "video unavailable".


... The accident happened in broad daylight, no vehicles save the
cop SUV and the cyclist visible for miles, cyclist waiting at an
intersection, I think for a stop sign.Â* Total f*up on the part of the
cop, who was more or less apologetic.Â* A daytime running light would
not
have helped.


Not true. I clearly found that drivers notice me much better with
bright lights. Even in the corner of their eyes is enough because it
"distracts" them in a good way. All it takes is noticing a cyclist a
second or two earlier and a collision can be avoided.

Seriously?Â* The cop would have looked up from his phone if only the
cyclist had had a light?Â* Sounds like magic.


Easy to try. While distracted with some chore in your home, have someone
walk towards you pointing a bright but not blinding LED flashlight. It
works. A human eye is not insensitive in the directions where one does
not look, just less sensitive. The "muffling effect" needs to be
overcome and intense light is just about the only method to achieve that.



Other clue: You are driving a car, looking ahead into traffic as you are
supposed to do. The dashboard becomes largely unnoticed except for the
occasional glance at the speedometer. However, when the yellow check
engine light, the red oil pressure light, the overtemp light or the low
fuel light comes on it is immediately noticed. Same if someone behind
you flashes their headlights even while you aren't looking into the rear
view mirror.


Not if you're intent on texting someone on your phone.

Yet another one: Think about the reason why approaching emergency
vehicles have very bright flashing lights.


They also have sirens.

There is a reason why DRL have been mandatory on US motorcycles for a
long time.

On Friday, October 5, 2018 at 7:31:57 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-10-04 20:34, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/4/2018 3:34 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-10-04 12:18, jbeattie wrote:

It takes very little light to be conspicuous at night, and it takes
no additional light to be conspicuous during the day -- assuming
broad daylight without cloud cover or other low-light condition.


My experience is clearly different.

Your experiences are almost always unique, not just different.


Yet strangely, it jibes with that of our government folks. Why do you
think they mandate DRL on motorcycles?

And yet motorcycles are the one category of MVs in Oregon with increasing fatality rates. e.g. http://www.eastoregonian.com/eo/loca...king-this-year

-- Jay Beattie.

On Friday, October 5, 2018 at 7:28:43 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-10-04 18:13, Radey Shouman wrote:
Joerg writes:

On 2018-10-04 14:43, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 10/4/2018 2:12 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-10-04 10:40, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/4/2018 11:02 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-10-01 15:14, wrote:
http://reviews.mtbr.com/magicshine-l...2018-interbike

The beloved Magicshine brings us what we finally need in bike lights.
Thanks to all the gods. 6500 lumens! I think you can have either
5000 or 1500 or all 6500 lumens. Thankfully now we will not only be
able to blind everyone else on the road or trail, but we can now
cause their eyeballs to burst into flames and maybe hopefully their
heads will also explode. Yeah!!!!!!


This one for their rear light is weird, quote "A sleep mode is
triggered after one minute of inaction to save power, any vibration
will immediately re-activate the unit".

So the light will go out while waiting at an intersection? Really?
Nobody raised their hand during the design review? Was there even a
design review?

First, their definition of "sleep mode" may not be "goes out." It could,
I suppose, just become much dimmer. In any case, it would be easy enough
to jiggle the bike a bit to turn it back on.


Not very smart on the part of the design engineers.


But it's probably not necessary. Ohio law specifically permits lights
that go out when the bike is stationary, ...


Not a smart decision by the lawmakers.


... and there's never been a report
of a death or serious injury caused by that feature.


Grandpa drove without a seat belt all his life and never go hurt, so ...

Grandpa also rode his bicycle without a six foot tall safety flag, a
siren, a bell constantly and automatically ringing every time he
moved, pads on his knees, pads on his elbows, body armor protecting
his spine. Why are you not using all those measures?

(Actually, maybe you are. With you, we never know.)



BTW, it even happens from the front, even by police officers:

https://fox2now.com/2018/07/30/polic...hone-in-video/


Nothing can replace bright light other than even brighter
lights. Which both of my bikes have.

Joerg, you're the master of the worldwide search for the vanishingly
rare exception. That is NOT a common crash type, as any dispassionate
search of the literature would shoe. And you have no evidence that
your daytime headlight would have prevented it.

Looks like the video has been taken down, at least fox2now.com can't
find it.


Works fine here.

Works for me now, no more "video unavailable".


... The accident happened in broad daylight, no vehicles save the
cop SUV and the cyclist visible for miles, cyclist waiting at an
intersection, I think for a stop sign. Total f*up on the part of the
cop, who was more or less apologetic. A daytime running light would not
have helped.


Not true. I clearly found that drivers notice me much better with
bright lights. Even in the corner of their eyes is enough because it
"distracts" them in a good way. All it takes is noticing a cyclist a
second or two earlier and a collision can be avoided.

Seriously? The cop would have looked up from his phone if only the
cyclist had had a light? Sounds like magic.


Easy to try. While distracted with some chore in your home, have someone
walk towards you pointing a bright but not blinding LED flashlight. It
works. A human eye is not insensitive in the directions where one does
not look, just less sensitive. The "muffling effect" needs to be
overcome and intense light is just about the only method to achieve that.

Other clue: You are driving a car, looking ahead into traffic as you are
supposed to do. The dashboard becomes largely unnoticed except for the
occasional glance at the speedometer. However, when the yellow check
engine light, the red oil pressure light, the overtemp light or the low
fuel light comes on it is immediately noticed. Same if someone behind
you flashes their headlights even while you aren't looking into the rear
view mirror.

Yet another one: Think about the reason why approaching emergency
vehicles have very bright flashing lights.

Now imagine all of these riders with lights and sirens: https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.ne...png?1428427634

This is the daily commuter traffic into downtown. Now put all those people on the two-way cycle track on my way into work. https://bikeportland.org/wp-content/...ansit-bend.jpg Now live with that.

Solid white lights in bright sunshine are almost universally irrelevant and annoying to other cyclists and drivers. I see jerseys and body shape long before I register the light. And BTW, having driven ambulance for six years, I spent plenty of time sitting behind cars with my deafening Federal Q2B pegged before the dopey driver turned down the music and realized I was sitting there -- and then he freaks out, hits the gas, goes into the intersection and gets whacked. It can be a sh** show. Whatever giant light, siren, calliope, marching band you claim will save your life can only make a marginal improvement and proving that margin is hard if not impossible, and a blinding light can cause accidents or at least upset.

What will really reduce accidents is being a good rider and knowing how to ride in traffic and with entering or exiting traffic. A DRL may help, but it is certainly not magical and is irrelevant in many situations. Lights are critical at night, obviously -- but mega lights are totally unnecessary on city streets in dry weather. What is "enough" at night varies depending on terrain, conditions, etc., but whatever is enough, it can't be blinding people.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Friday, October 5, 2018 at 9:28:43 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:

Yet another one: Think about the reason why approaching emergency
vehicles have very bright flashing lights.

--
Regards, Joerg

Emergency vehicles also have very loud sirens. Ears are not too directional like eyes. You know an ambulance or police are coming whether its behind you, left or right of you, or behind the building two blocks away.

On Friday, October 5, 2018 at 11:22:00 AM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, October 5, 2018 at 7:31:57 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

Yet strangely, it jibes with that of our government folks. Why do you
think they mandate DRL on motorcycles?

And yet motorcycles are the one category of MVs in Oregon with increasing fatality rates. e.g. http://www.eastoregonian.com/eo/loca...king-this-year

-- Jay Beattie.

But are increasing motorcycle fatalities due to 1. Motorcycles just being more dangerous, smaller, harder to see, or 2. Stupid, careless, reckless drivers of motorcycles, or 3. Fatal in crashes because the drivers are manly men who choose to NOT wear helmets?

On Fri, 05 Oct 2018 07:28:53 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-10-04 18:13, Radey Shouman wrote:
Joerg writes:

On 2018-10-04 14:43, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 10/4/2018 2:12 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-10-04 10:40, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/4/2018 11:02 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-10-01 15:14, wrote:
http://reviews.mtbr.com/magicshine-l...2018-interbike

The beloved Magicshine brings us what we finally need in bike lights.
Thanks to all the gods. 6500 lumens! I think you can have either
5000 or 1500 or all 6500 lumens. Thankfully now we will not only be
able to blind everyone else on the road or trail, but we can now
cause their eyeballs to burst into flames and maybe hopefully their
heads will also explode. Yeah!!!!!!


This one for their rear light is weird, quote "A sleep mode is
triggered after one minute of inaction to save power, any vibration
will immediately re-activate the unit".

So the light will go out while waiting at an intersection? Really?
Nobody raised their hand during the design review? Was there even a
design review?

First, their definition of "sleep mode" may not be "goes out." It could,
I suppose, just become much dimmer. In any case, it would be easy enough
to jiggle the bike a bit to turn it back on.


Not very smart on the part of the design engineers.


But it's probably not necessary. Ohio law specifically permits lights
that go out when the bike is stationary, ...


Not a smart decision by the lawmakers.


... and there's never been a report
of a death or serious injury caused by that feature.


Grandpa drove without a seat belt all his life and never go hurt, so ...

Grandpa also rode his bicycle without a six foot tall safety flag, a
siren, a bell constantly and automatically ringing every time he
moved, pads on his knees, pads on his elbows, body armor protecting
his spine. Why are you not using all those measures?

(Actually, maybe you are. With you, we never know.)



BTW, it even happens from the front, even by police officers:

https://fox2now.com/2018/07/30/polic...hone-in-video/


Nothing can replace bright light other than even brighter
lights. Which both of my bikes have.

Joerg, you're the master of the worldwide search for the vanishingly
rare exception. That is NOT a common crash type, as any dispassionate
search of the literature would shoe. And you have no evidence that
your daytime headlight would have prevented it.

Looks like the video has been taken down, at least fox2now.com can't
find it.


Works fine here.

Works for me now, no more "video unavailable".


... The accident happened in broad daylight, no vehicles save the
cop SUV and the cyclist visible for miles, cyclist waiting at an
intersection, I think for a stop sign. Total f*up on the part of the
cop, who was more or less apologetic. A daytime running light would not
have helped.


Not true. I clearly found that drivers notice me much better with
bright lights. Even in the corner of their eyes is enough because it
"distracts" them in a good way. All it takes is noticing a cyclist a
second or two earlier and a collision can be avoided.

Seriously? The cop would have looked up from his phone if only the
cyclist had had a light? Sounds like magic.


Easy to try. While distracted with some chore in your home, have someone
walk towards you pointing a bright but not blinding LED flashlight. It
works. A human eye is not insensitive in the directions where one does
not look, just less sensitive. The "muffling effect" needs to be
overcome and intense light is just about the only method to achieve that.

Other clue: You are driving a car, looking ahead into traffic as you are
supposed to do. The dashboard becomes largely unnoticed except for the
occasional glance at the speedometer. However, when the yellow check
engine light, the red oil pressure light, the overtemp light or the low
fuel light comes on it is immediately noticed. Same if someone behind
you flashes their headlights even while you aren't looking into the rear
view mirror.

Your argument about the engine indicator lights on the dash just isn't
true. Whether or not you notice them or not depends largely on how
bright they are. With the usual rather dim warning lights you don't,
or at least normal people don't notice them until their eyes happen to
look at the dash.

As for someone behind you flashing their lights, again it depends on
how close they are to your car. A distance behind you and normal
people don't notice at all, but of course if they are close enough
that their lights are illuminating the whole inside of your car and
you have to squint in order to see the road you will notice.


Yet another one: Think about the reason why approaching emergency
vehicles have very bright flashing lights.


There is a reason why DRL have been mandatory on US motorcycles for a
long time.

--

Cheers,

John B.

On 10/5/2018 5:38 PM, wrote:
On Friday, October 5, 2018 at 11:22:00 AM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, October 5, 2018 at 7:31:57 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

Yet strangely, it jibes with that of our government folks. Why do you
think they mandate DRL on motorcycles?

And yet motorcycles are the one category of MVs in Oregon with increasing fatality rates. e.g. http://www.eastoregonian.com/eo/loca...king-this-year

-- Jay Beattie.

But are increasing motorcycle fatalities due to 1. Motorcycles just being more dangerous, smaller, harder to see, or 2. Stupid, careless, reckless drivers of motorcycles, or 3. Fatal in crashes because the drivers are manly men who choose to NOT wear helmets?


Perusing these numbers:
https://www.iii.org/article/backgrou...rcycle-crashes

I agree that motorcycle crashes and fatalities per mile or
per titled vehicle are higher than cagers.

As with bicycle crashes, alcohol correlates with crashes.
Note that incidence is lower for motorcycles and much lower
for bicycles than for autos (heavy truck rates being
vanishingly small)

I don't see trends over (recent) time. The data looks pretty
much noisy within a range to me. You might see definitive
trends over a longer time period but I couldn't find such.
Helmet use for example ranges 60% to 67% over a 20 year span
but ends about where it started.

Counterpoint: As in recent discussions here, reporting real
world incidents into check boxes on forms introduces all
kinds of errors so consider that when viewing these or any
other aggregated incident tables.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, October 5, 2018 at 4:42:02 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/5/2018 5:38 PM, wrote:
On Friday, October 5, 2018 at 11:22:00 AM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, October 5, 2018 at 7:31:57 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

Yet strangely, it jibes with that of our government folks. Why do you
think they mandate DRL on motorcycles?

And yet motorcycles are the one category of MVs in Oregon with increasing fatality rates. e.g. http://www.eastoregonian.com/eo/loca...king-this-year

-- Jay Beattie.

But are increasing motorcycle fatalities due to 1. Motorcycles just being more dangerous, smaller, harder to see, or 2. Stupid, careless, reckless drivers of motorcycles, or 3. Fatal in crashes because the drivers are manly men who choose to NOT wear helmets?


Perusing these numbers:
https://www.iii.org/article/backgrou...rcycle-crashes

I agree that motorcycle crashes and fatalities per mile or
per titled vehicle are higher than cagers.

As with bicycle crashes, alcohol correlates with crashes.
Note that incidence is lower for motorcycles and much lower
for bicycles than for autos (heavy truck rates being
vanishingly small)

I don't see trends over (recent) time. The data looks pretty
much noisy within a range to me. You might see definitive
trends over a longer time period but I couldn't find such.
Helmet use for example ranges 60% to 67% over a 20 year span
but ends about where it started.

Counterpoint: As in recent discussions here, reporting real
world incidents into check boxes on forms introduces all
kinds of errors so consider that when viewing these or any
other aggregated incident tables.

See https://rizklaw.com/oregon-motorcycle-fatalities/ The article is somewhat mis-titled since motor cycle fatalities were not "constant." They shot up.

And I know why: inadequate DRLs! Rather than a mere headlight, they should have this Joerg-approved set-up: https://lawtigers.com/wp-content/upl...ManyLights.jpg
Option #2:
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/K0RWC4/mod...ion-K0RWC4.jpg


You can never have enough lights or light! Safe is never safe enough. Remember the children.

-- Jay Beattie.