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butted spokes (?)



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 4th 05, 07:52 AM
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Default butted spokes (?)

I'm building a bike for XC races and I'd like it to be reasonably light. I
thought of using butted spokes (my frand told me taht u can save as much as
100grams per wheel). My questions a

1) does it make any sense to use butted spokes at all?
2) is yes, is there any big difference in their durability (for instance
standard 2.0 stainless steel spokes vs 2.0 - 1.5 - 2.0 spokes) ?
3) what spokes would you reccomend (thickness) and why ?

Now some data: I weight around 170 lbs, the rim I want to use is mavic 317
DISC, DT hubs, hydro disc brakes, the bike is a hardtail.

Thx in advance for any help.


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  #2  
Old September 4th 05, 09:29 AM
Mykal
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Default butted spokes (?)


wrote in message ...
I'm building a bike for XC races and I'd like it to be reasonably light. I
thought of using butted spokes (my frand told me taht u can save as much as
100grams per wheel). My questions a

1) does it make any sense to use butted spokes at all?
2) is yes, is there any big difference in their durability (for instance
standard 2.0 stainless steel spokes vs 2.0 - 1.5 - 2.0 spokes) ?
3) what spokes would you reccomend (thickness) and why ?

Now some data: I weight around 170 lbs, the rim I want to use is mavic 317
DISC, DT hubs, hydro disc brakes, the bike is a hardtail.

Thx in advance for any help.



I found spokes swaged to as thin as 1.6 mm are recommended by manufacturers
to NOT be used in disc brake wheels; presumably this restrictions has
something to do with the forces exerted through spokes with the use of hub
disc brakes. (2.0 x 1.8 swaged spokes are Ok and may be optimal; however,
there are spokes available with ends greater than 2.0 that are marketed for
some hub disc brake applications.) Disc brake wheels I've used for road
application came with 2.0 mm x 1.8 mm "Race" spokes manufactured by Sapim.
http://www.sapim.be/

Best information source for the rest of your questions regarding use of
swaged (aka "butted") spokes, IMO, is "The Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt.
http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/tools/wheel.html#books

--
Mykal Crooks
Seattle, WA


  #3  
Old September 4th 05, 12:50 PM
Arthur Harris
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Default butted spokes (?)

wrote:
I'm building a bike for XC races and I'd like it to be reasonably light. I
thought of using butted spokes (my frand told me taht u can save as much
as
100grams per wheel). My questions a

1) does it make any sense to use butted spokes at all?
2) is yes, is there any big difference in their durability (for instance
standard 2.0 stainless steel spokes vs 2.0 - 1.5 - 2.0 spokes) ?
3) what spokes would you reccomend (thickness) and why ?


The purpose of using butted spokes is to produce a more durable wheel, not
to save weight. The weight savings will be minimal.

Spokes are most likely to break at the elbow (where they attach to the hub)
or at the nipple. Butted spokes provide strength at those areas while the
thinner center portion gives greater elasticity. The greater elasticity
makes it less likely that a spoke will go slack when hitting bumps. When
spokes go slack (even momentarily) the nipple can loosen, causing the wheel
to go out of true. Once a nipple starts to loosen, the process will continue
until the spoke becomes completely slack.

I would not recommend 2.0-1.5-2.0 spokes. The difference in the diameters of
the butted vs. unbutted sections is too great, and you'll have lots of
trouble with spoke wind-up when tensioning them. For your application, I
would use 2.0-1.8-2.0 spokes (DT Competition).

Art Harris


  #5  
Old September 4th 05, 03:57 PM
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Default butted spokes (?)

Mykal Crooks writes:

I'm building a bike for XC races and I'd like it to be reasonably
light. I thought of using butted spokes (my friend told me that u
can save as much as 100grams per wheel). My questions a


1) does it make any sense to use butted spokes at all?
2) is yes, is there any big difference in their durability (for
instance standard 2.0 stainless steel spokes vs 2.0 - 1.5 - 2.0
spokes) ?
3) what spokes would you recommend (thickness) and why ?


Now some data: I weight around 170 lbs, the rim I want to use is
Mavic 317 DISC, DT hubs, hydro disc brakes, the bike is a hardtail.


I found spokes swaged to as thin as 1.6 mm are recommended by
manufacturers to NOT be used in disc brake wheels; presumably this
restrictions has something to do with the forces exerted through
spokes with the use of hub disc brakes. (2.0 x 1.8 swaged spokes
are OK and may be optimal; however, there are spokes available with
ends greater than 2.0 that are marketed for some hub disc brake
applications.) Disc brake wheels I've used for road application came
with 2.0 mm x 1.8 mm "Race" spokes manufactured by Sapim.


http://www.sapim.be/

I don't understand the aversion to thin spokes with disc brakes if it
is something other than for the caliper crashing into the spokes.
Disc brake torque is no greater spoke load than peak pedaling torque
and it is distributed to both sides of the wheel, which pedaling
torque is not. Besides, finite element analysis shows that torque is
a far lighter load on spokes than radial loads. I don't believe these
folks are aware of any of that and are guessing with the seat of their
pants, or maybe they are just impressed with the power of their brake.

Jobst Brandt
  #6  
Old September 4th 05, 04:16 PM
jim beam
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Default butted spokes (?)

wrote:
Mykal Crooks writes:


I'm building a bike for XC races and I'd like it to be reasonably
light. I thought of using butted spokes (my friend told me that u
can save as much as 100grams per wheel). My questions a



1) does it make any sense to use butted spokes at all?
2) is yes, is there any big difference in their durability (for
instance standard 2.0 stainless steel spokes vs 2.0 - 1.5 - 2.0
spokes) ?
3) what spokes would you recommend (thickness) and why ?



Now some data: I weight around 170 lbs, the rim I want to use is
Mavic 317 DISC, DT hubs, hydro disc brakes, the bike is a hardtail.



I found spokes swaged to as thin as 1.6 mm are recommended by
manufacturers to NOT be used in disc brake wheels; presumably this
restrictions has something to do with the forces exerted through
spokes with the use of hub disc brakes. (2.0 x 1.8 swaged spokes
are OK and may be optimal; however, there are spokes available with
ends greater than 2.0 that are marketed for some hub disc brake
applications.) Disc brake wheels I've used for road application came
with 2.0 mm x 1.8 mm "Race" spokes manufactured by Sapim.



http://www.sapim.be/

I don't understand the aversion to thin spokes with disc brakes if it
is something other than for the caliper crashing into the spokes.
Disc brake torque is no greater spoke load than peak pedaling torque
and it is distributed to both sides of the wheel, which pedaling
torque is not.


eh? disk braking torque exceeds pedalling torque by a factor of at
least two. and the torque transfer from one side of a hub to the other
is the same for drive or braking. unless the hub somehow mutates when
it finds it's being used for braking vs. drive that is... maybe you
have the math for that?

Besides, finite element analysis shows that torque is
a far lighter load on spokes than radial loads. I don't believe these
folks are aware of any of that and are guessing with the seat of their
pants, or maybe they are just impressed with the power of their brake.


so we'll just completely ignore fatigue loading shall we??? sure!!!
that makes life much more convenient!!! the jobstian way /is/ to ignore
inconvenient facts after all!!! doubtless braking increases wheel
strength too...


Jobst Brandt


evidently.

  #7  
Old September 4th 05, 04:18 PM
jim beam
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Default butted spokes (?)

Mykal wrote:
wrote in message ...

I'm building a bike for XC races and I'd like it to be reasonably light. I
thought of using butted spokes (my frand told me taht u can save as much as
100grams per wheel). My questions a

1) does it make any sense to use butted spokes at all?
2) is yes, is there any big difference in their durability (for instance
standard 2.0 stainless steel spokes vs 2.0 - 1.5 - 2.0 spokes) ?
3) what spokes would you reccomend (thickness) and why ?

Now some data: I weight around 170 lbs, the rim I want to use is mavic 317
DISC, DT hubs, hydro disc brakes, the bike is a hardtail.

Thx in advance for any help.




I found spokes swaged to as thin as 1.6 mm are recommended by manufacturers
to NOT be used in disc brake wheels; presumably this restrictions has
something to do with the forces exerted through spokes with the use of hub
disc brakes. (2.0 x 1.8 swaged spokes are Ok and may be optimal; however,
there are spokes available with ends greater than 2.0 that are marketed for
some hub disc brake applications.) Disc brake wheels I've used for road
application came with 2.0 mm x 1.8 mm "Race" spokes manufactured by Sapim.
http://www.sapim.be/

Best information source for the rest of your questions regarding use of
swaged (aka "butted") spokes, IMO, is "The Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt.
http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/tools/wheel.html#books

jobst calls them all "swaged" but that's because he's seemingly unaware
of the fact that different spokes are made by different methods. some
are indeed swaged, but some others are drawn and yet others are ground &
polished. the generic term for /all/ reduced diameter spokes is
therefore "butted". don't let anyone who knows nothing about these
different production methods tell you otherwise.

  #10  
Old September 4th 05, 04:52 PM
Phil, Squid-in-Training
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Default butted spokes (?)

methods. some are indeed swaged, but some others are drawn and yet
others are ground & polished.


Does Wheelsmith do the last one? I've noticed that...

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training


 




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