Aluminium or Chromoly frame?

On Monday, August 5, 1996 at 10:00:00 AM UTC+3, Michel Colmant wrote:
I am currently shopping around for a good road bike and I have been
getting some opposite information about frames. I am 6.5' tall, so I am
fairly concerned by the rigidity of the frame. In one shop, I was told
that a good steal frame wall not flex as much as aluminium. And in
another one, I got the opposite information. Where is the truth?
What are the real advantages/disadvantages of aluminium frames?
Any particular info on Alu 7005 and Tange CrMo?

I am not particularly looking at spending my money on the lightest stuff
there is, but I just want a good bike that will last and allow me to
take part in some triathlons.

Thanks for your help,

Michel

PS: If there are any thread that discuss this topic, please refer it
to me.

--
Michel Colmant
High-Speed Networks Department
IBM Zurich Research Laboratory
Saumerstrasse 4
CH - 8803 Rueschlikon
Switzerland
Tel. +41-1-724-8515
Fax. +41-1-710-3608
Email:
WWW: http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~cmi/
----------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: All opinions expressed hereby are my own and are not
necessarily shared by my employer.
----------------------------------------------------------------

There has been a discussion on www.bikeforums.net with a thread about Mechanical failures. The bottom line is: Steel is reliable, heavy and easily reparable.

My long distance touring bikes have steel frames and each cost over $3000 Canadian to build. - easily reparable with a welder/brazing outfit. Less reparable if the frames were made of aluminum/carbon fiber...

On Friday, November 11, 2016 at 10:12:02 PM UTC-8, Ken Pisichko wrote:
On Monday, August 5, 1996 at 10:00:00 AM UTC+3, Michel Colmant wrote:
I am currently shopping around for a good road bike and I have been
getting some opposite information about frames. I am 6.5' tall, so I am
fairly concerned by the rigidity of the frame. In one shop, I was told
that a good steal frame wall not flex as much as aluminium. And in
another one, I got the opposite information. Where is the truth?
What are the real advantages/disadvantages of aluminium frames?
Any particular info on Alu 7005 and Tange CrMo?

I am not particularly looking at spending my money on the lightest stuff
there is, but I just want a good bike that will last and allow me to
take part in some triathlons.

Thanks for your help,

Michel

PS: If there are any thread that discuss this topic, please refer it
to me.

--
Michel Colmant
High-Speed Networks Department
IBM Zurich Research Laboratory
Saumerstrasse 4
CH - 8803 Rueschlikon
Switzerland
Tel. +41-1-724-8515
Fax. +41-1-710-3608
Email:
WWW: http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~cmi/
----------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: All opinions expressed hereby are my own and are not
necessarily shared by my employer.
----------------------------------------------------------------

There has been a discussion on www.bikeforums.net with a thread about Mechanical failures. The bottom line is: Steel is reliable, heavy and easily reparable.

My long distance touring bikes have steel frames and each cost over $3000 Canadian to build. - easily reparable with a welder/brazing outfit. Less reparable if the frames were made of aluminum/carbon fiber...

Carbon fiber is repairable -- and in some cases more easily repaired than TIG welded air-hardening OS steel. However, common lugged frames with 531-ish/4130, etc. are easily repaired.

The real benefit of steel is have a frame that is resistant to mechanical damage and can be straightened if bent or ridden even if bent. I had a steel frame that I plowed into the side of a car (right hooked). The bike had a Cinelli semi-sloping crown, beefy fork blades and SP/531 mix of tubes. The fork came out unscathed, but I ended up with the usual impact wrinkles at the HT/TT and HT/DT lugs. I rode that bike for years unrepaired (until it got stolen), and I couldn't tell the difference in ride pre and post-accident. That bike was also a boat anchor by modern standards.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Saturday, November 12, 2016 at 12:12:02 AM UTC-6, Ken Pisichko wrote:
The bottom line is: Steel is reliable, heavy and easily reparable.

steel frames - easily reparable with a welder/brazing outfit.

No. Quality steel frames are made with very thin hardened steel tubes. Being thin, they cannot just be welded by anyone. Brazing does not really exist anymore since so few people use lugs or fillet brazing to make frames. Its probably true you can easily fix a Chinese steel frame anywhere by anybody. But not quality steel frames. I have a Don Walker fillet brazed track frame with broken down and top tubes. Walker said he would fix it for about $1000+. Another frame maker said he would not even try due to the thinness of the tubes. The distortion from heating the tubes would require reaming and straightening the tubes afterwards. He could not guarantee the frame would be safe afterwards.

On Saturday, November 12, 2016 at 3:26:41 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, November 11, 2016 at 10:12:02 PM UTC-8, Ken Pisichko wrote:
On Monday, August 5, 1996 at 10:00:00 AM UTC+3, Michel Colmant wrote:
I am currently shopping around for a good road bike and I have been
getting some opposite information about frames. I am 6.5' tall, so I am
fairly concerned by the rigidity of the frame. In one shop, I was told
that a good steal frame wall not flex as much as aluminium. And in
another one, I got the opposite information. Where is the truth?
What are the real advantages/disadvantages of aluminium frames?
Any particular info on Alu 7005 and Tange CrMo?

I am not particularly looking at spending my money on the lightest stuff
there is, but I just want a good bike that will last and allow me to
take part in some triathlons.

Thanks for your help,

Michel

PS: If there are any thread that discuss this topic, please refer it
to me.

--
Michel Colmant
High-Speed Networks Department
IBM Zurich Research Laboratory
Saumerstrasse 4
CH - 8803 Rueschlikon
Switzerland
Tel. +41-1-724-8515
Fax. +41-1-710-3608
Email:
WWW: http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~cmi/
----------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: All opinions expressed hereby are my own and are not
necessarily shared by my employer.
----------------------------------------------------------------

There has been a discussion on www.bikeforums.net with a thread about Mechanical failures. The bottom line is: Steel is reliable, heavy and easily reparable.

My long distance touring bikes have steel frames and each cost over $3000 Canadian to build. - easily reparable with a welder/brazing outfit. Less reparable if the frames were made of aluminum/carbon fiber...

Carbon fiber is repairable -- and in some cases more easily repaired than TIG welded air-hardening OS steel. However, common lugged frames with 531-ish/4130, etc. are easily repaired.

The real benefit of steel is have a frame that is resistant to mechanical damage and can be straightened if bent or ridden even if bent. I had a steel frame that I plowed into the side of a car (right hooked). The bike had a Cinelli semi-sloping crown, beefy fork blades and SP/531 mix of tubes. The fork came out unscathed, but I ended up with the usual impact wrinkles at the HT/TT and HT/DT lugs. I rode that bike for years unrepaired (until it got stolen), and I couldn't tell the difference in ride pre and post-accident. That bike was also a boat anchor by modern standards.

-- Jay Beattie.

good for the soul

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...wrench.778500/

On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 14:19:05 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Saturday, November 12, 2016 at 12:12:02 AM UTC-6, Ken Pisichko wrote:
The bottom line is: Steel is reliable, heavy and easily reparable.

steel frames - easily reparable with a welder/brazing outfit.

No. Quality steel frames are made with very thin hardened steel tubes.
Being thin, they cannot just be welded by anyone. Brazing does not
really exist anymore since so few people use lugs or fillet brazing to
make frames. Its probably true you can easily fix a Chinese steel
frame anywhere by anybody. But not quality steel frames. I have a
Don Walker fillet brazed track frame with broken down and top tubes.
Walker said he would fix it for about $1000+. Another frame maker
said he would not even try due to the thinness of the tubes. The
distortion from heating the tubes would require reaming and
straightening the tubes afterwards. He could not guarantee the frame
would be safe afterwards.

That is not really correct. There are plenty of welders out there that
can weld thin wall bike tubes. Have a look at the professional
welder's sites. You won't find this type of guy down at the corner gas
station and he won't be cheap either but there are plenty of them out
there. There is even a video some where on the net of a professional
welder welding a bike frame.

As for super thin tubes. Columbus NL tubes have 0.8mm butts. that is
0.0315". I know plenty of aircraft welders who spend most days welding
0.032" stainless.

On Saturday, November 12, 2016 at 2:19:08 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, November 12, 2016 at 12:12:02 AM UTC-6, Ken Pisichko wrote:
The bottom line is: Steel is reliable, heavy and easily reparable.

steel frames - easily reparable with a welder/brazing outfit.

No. Quality steel frames are made with very thin hardened steel tubes. Being thin, they cannot just be welded by anyone. Brazing does not really exist anymore since so few people use lugs or fillet brazing to make frames.. Its probably true you can easily fix a Chinese steel frame anywhere by anybody. But not quality steel frames. I have a Don Walker fillet brazed track frame with broken down and top tubes. Walker said he would fix it for about $1000+. Another frame maker said he would not even try due to the thinness of the tubes. The distortion from heating the tubes would require reaming and straightening the tubes afterwards. He could not guarantee the frame would be safe afterwards.

Do you know what fillet brazing is? Arc welding is possible with very skilled welders that have practiced enough but many common frame builders can fillet braze and make as strong a frame without the overheating that welding causes which destroys the tempering.

On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 7:25:21 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, November 12, 2016 at 2:19:08 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, November 12, 2016 at 12:12:02 AM UTC-6, Ken Pisichko wrote:
The bottom line is: Steel is reliable, heavy and easily reparable.

steel frames - easily reparable with a welder/brazing outfit.

No. Quality steel frames are made with very thin hardened steel tubes. Being thin, they cannot just be welded by anyone. Brazing does not really exist anymore since so few people use lugs or fillet brazing to make frames. Its probably true you can easily fix a Chinese steel frame anywhere by anybody. But not quality steel frames. I have a Don Walker fillet brazed track frame with broken down and top tubes. Walker said he would fix it for about $1000+. Another frame maker said he would not even try due to the thinness of the tubes. The distortion from heating the tubes would require reaming and straightening the tubes afterwards. He could not guarantee the frame would be safe afterwards.

Do you know what fillet brazing is? Arc welding is possible with very skilled welders that have practiced enough but many common frame builders can fillet braze and make as strong a frame without the overheating that welding causes which destroys the tempering.

Many of the thin walled tubes are air hardening and rely on high heat -- welding -- to make the joint stronger. 853 for example.

Plus, I think the point is that if you get a modern, TIG welded frame with air-hardened, thin-walled tubes, repair is not as easy (and perhaps not even possible) as it was with 4130, 531, etc. which you could fix in your garage with a MAP torch or with an oxy-acetylene torch at the adult-ed metal shop (my usual MO). I was always amazed by TIG welders. I'd drop the hood and say, "where the f*** am I . . . someone turn on the lights." You can braze in a pair of sunglasses. One shop teacher would snicker because he considered brass to be one step up from mucilage glue -- but hey, its worked for bikes for a century or more.

-- Jay Beattie.

-- Jay Beattie.

-- Jay Beattie.
-- Jay Beattie.

On 11/12/2016 4:19 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, November 12, 2016 at 12:12:02 AM UTC-6, Ken Pisichko wrote:
The bottom line is: Steel is reliable, heavy and easily reparable.

steel frames - easily reparable with a welder/brazing outfit.

No. Quality steel frames are made with very thin hardened steel tubes. Being thin, they cannot just be welded by anyone. Brazing does not really exist anymore since so few people use lugs or fillet brazing to make frames. Its probably true you can easily fix a Chinese steel frame anywhere by anybody. But not quality steel frames. I have a Don Walker fillet brazed track frame with broken down and top tubes. Walker said he would fix it for about $1000+. Another frame maker said he would not even try due to the thinness of the tubes. The distortion from heating the tubes would require reaming and straightening the tubes afterwards. He could not guarantee the frame would be safe afterwards.


Well, yes and no.

Proper fillet brazing is well below critical temperatures
for the relevant steels. Do some guys screw that up? Sure.
That and everything else!

Which doesn't mean it can't be done well and literally good
as new. One can reflow a brazed joint many times as long as
it's clean and below temp limits of the material.

Two new main tubes is a major repair but the quoted figure
probably includes a respray as well and is not out of line
for all that service by experienced hands.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

oh yeah borrow the DIY frame book ....

wind chimes are a passage between self and not self ..... breathing exercises while chiming facilitates. and a deck over the Elysian fields prob Mendocino....

goo.gl/zkUGXh

the Greek scale is favored

On 11/13/2016 10:17 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 7:25:21 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, November 12, 2016 at 2:19:08 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, November 12, 2016 at 12:12:02 AM UTC-6, Ken Pisichko wrote:
The bottom line is: Steel is reliable, heavy and easily reparable.

steel frames - easily reparable with a welder/brazing outfit.

No. Quality steel frames are made with very thin hardened steel tubes. Being thin, they cannot just be welded by anyone. Brazing does not really exist anymore since so few people use lugs or fillet brazing to make frames. Its probably true you can easily fix a Chinese steel frame anywhere by anybody. But not quality steel frames. I have a Don Walker fillet brazed track frame with broken down and top tubes. Walker said he would fix it for about $1000+. Another frame maker said he would not even try due to the thinness of the tubes. The distortion from heating the tubes would require reaming and straightening the tubes afterwards. He could not guarantee the frame would be safe afterwards.

Do you know what fillet brazing is? Arc welding is possible with very skilled welders that have practiced enough but many common frame builders can fillet braze and make as strong a frame without the overheating that welding causes which destroys the tempering.

Many of the thin walled tubes are air hardening and rely on high heat -- welding -- to make the joint stronger. 853 for example.

Plus, I think the point is that if you get a modern, TIG welded frame with air-hardened, thin-walled tubes, repair is not as easy (and perhaps not even possible) as it was with 4130, 531, etc. which you could fix in your garage with a MAP torch or with an oxy-acetylene torch at the adult-ed metal shop (my usual MO). I was always amazed by TIG welders. I'd drop the hood and say, "where the f*** am I . . . someone turn on the lights." You can braze in a pair of sunglasses. One shop teacher would snicker because he considered brass to be one step up from mucilage glue -- but hey, its worked for bikes for a century or more.

-- Jay Beattie.


Nice post. Most brass/bronze/silver bicycle frames are very
repairable. Modern thin wall TIG less so for may reasons.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971