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#31
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Making America into Amsterdam
On 6/27/2018 10:39 AM, AMuzi wrote:
snip http://www.somafab.com/archives/prod...disc-frame-set revised model for 2018 Very nice. How much would a complete bicycle cost with that frame? I think that many potential customers would not want to buy every component at full retail price and build up a bicycle themselves, but would be okay with paying $1000-1200 for a complete bike. Especially in Palo Alto. Mechanical disc brakes Triple Crankset, Sora or better Front 36 spoke wheel with SP PD-8 dynamo Rear 36 spoke wheel Stem Seat Post Seat Pedals Handlebars Chain |
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#32
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Making America into Amsterdam
On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 11:18:06 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 6/27/2018 10:39 AM, AMuzi wrote: snip http://www.somafab.com/archives/prod...disc-frame-set revised model for 2018 Very nice. How much would a complete bicycle cost with that frame? I think that many potential customers would not want to buy every component at full retail price and build up a bicycle themselves, but would be okay with paying $1000-1200 for a complete bike. Especially in Palo Alto. Mechanical disc brakes Triple Crankset, Sora or better Front 36 spoke wheel with SP PD-8 dynamo Rear 36 spoke wheel Stem Seat Post Seat Pedals Handlebars Chain That recommend should come as no surprise. Every time you post about mixtes, I link to the Soma. Here in the civilized world, you an buy them complete, but not cheaply. https://www.joe-bike.com/product/som...50-cm-4362.htm With sloping TT bikes with long headtubes and the proliferation of all sorts of city bikes, I really don't see the need for a mixte, but they are kind of retro cool. -- Jay Beattie. |
#33
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Making America into Amsterdam
On 2018-06-27 09:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2018 10:24 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-26 17:50, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/26/2018 6:40 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-26 13:34, sms wrote: [...] You also have the issue that, despite the astr-turf YIMBY groups, that families with children generally want to live in single family homes. So do we. We also did in Europe and could walk to the dance club, to numerous pubs, grocery stores, railroad station, almost everywhere. How old were those European towns? When were they founded? Doesn't matter. I think it does matter. Why? The example I brought above was a new part of town, built around the 70's. 1970, that is. It works. This is the area, residential right with industrial and there is also a large supermarket right in this development where I shopped a lot: https://goo.gl/maps/Urm6iarPi9B2 I think there are different cultural or social expectations in Europe, most of which are influenced by history. Europe seems to generally have much more restrictive land use policies, and those policies seem to promote "infill" development. Example: In Britain, in Austria, etc. when we bicycle toured, I was struck by the practicality of city limits. There seemed to be a boundary around most towns, with apartments, houses, shops etc. on one side and little but fields and forests on the other side. We saw almost no rural convenience stores or gas stations, for example. People have been living close for hundreds of years, and they're used to such a system. It sure did not look like that to me and I grew up in Europe, lived there for decades. An example in Austria: http://www.cipra.org/de/dossiers/rau...192dc6c65.jpeg Here is the Reussebene, Switzerland as an example form another country: http://www.wohnblog.ch/wp-content/up...eb-800x504.jpg This is in the UK: https://www.groundsure.com/wp-conten..._437777299.jpg Here, we have a pioneer mentality. The reflex is to colonize new land, to take possession of our own acreage, and to fight any attempt to limit what we can do with it. So if a realty company wants to build 30 houses, of _course_ they will buy a corn field a few miles out of town along some farm road. The land is cheaper out there, and there are fewer zoning rules. They'll put in twisty residential streets with only one outlet onto that farm road. They won't bother with sidewalks, because nobody will use them. The residents will feel like pioneers, so proud of having a new, all-white neighborhood out in "the country." But someone will eventually say "Hey, I can put a gas station and convenience store at their corner and make a killing." So the parking lot lights begin to wash away the night sky, and the traffic increases. Soon another realty company builds another mushroom development nearby, which triggers a little shopping plaza, and on it goes. It all happens at low density, because everyone wants an acre of lawn to mow. If only it was like that. The reality is that if you want a little strip mall or even just a neighborhood pub then city hall will say "NOOO!" because it's all zoned residential. Connectivity is actively discouraged, because residents don't want strangers in their neighborhood at all. A motor vehicle - preferably an SUV - is the only socially acceptable way to enter or leave the neighborhood. And people wanting to escape from the traffic to and from those developments soon buy into another development further yet from town. The march continues. And if it's 30 miles to work or ten miles to get most groceries, who cares? We had friends from Dublin, Ireland stay with us some years ago. One of their most-repeated comments was "You have so much _room_ in America!" But they have a countryside free of endless strip malls. Next time in Ireland don't go to Dublin but to some little town north of Shannon, along the river. No sharply contrasting town limits, houses everywhere, lots of space. Yet they managed to always make sure there is a pub, a grocer, a barber and so on within walking or cycling distance. Cycling meaning not for you and me but for people who think that anything beyond 5mi on a bicycle is a Herculean job. I am pretty sure that the people we met in Ireland would refuse to move to an area where that wasn't so, where there wasn't at least a pub. We rented a house in Killaloe, small village, looks not much different from where I live now, just smaller. Neighborhood pubs on just about every street corner, Mollie's Pub was five minutes walking from our house (depending on how many pints of Guinness one has had). Neighborhood pubs here in our area? None. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#34
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Making America into Amsterdam
On 6/27/2018 3:48 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-27 09:39, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/27/2018 10:24 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-26 17:50, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/26/2018 6:40 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-26 13:34, sms wrote: [...] You also have the issue that, despite the astr-turf YIMBY groups, that families with children generally want to live in single family homes. So do we. We also did in Europe and could walk to the dance club, to numerous pubs, grocery stores, railroad station, almost everywhere. How old were those European towns? When were they founded? Doesn't matter. I think it does matter. Why? Because, as I already said: I think there are different cultural or social expectations in Europe, most of which are influenced by history. Europe seems to generally have much more restrictive land use policies, and those policies seem to promote "infill" development. Example: In Britain, in Austria, etc. when we bicycle toured, I was struck by the practicality of city limits. There seemed to be a boundary around most towns, with apartments, houses, shops etc. on one side and little but fields and forests on the other side. We saw almost no rural convenience stores or gas stations, for example. People have been living close for hundreds of years, and they're used to such a system. It sure did not look like that to me and I grew up in Europe, lived there for decades. An example in Austria: http://www.cipra.org/de/dossiers/rau...192dc6c65.jpeg Here is the Reussebene, Switzerland as an example form another country: http://www.wohnblog.ch/wp-content/up...eb-800x504.jpg This is in the UK: https://www.groundsure.com/wp-conten..._437777299.jpg In each of your examples, I see what looks like dense development surrounded by rural fields. And Reussebene doesn't come up on Google Maps. Perhaps if you gave the locations, we could look at the satellite views and compare them with similar American towns. Here, we have a pioneer mentality. The reflex is to colonize new land, to take possession of our own acreage, and to fight any attempt to limit what we can do with it. So if a realty company wants to build 30 houses, of _course_ they will buy a corn field a few miles out of town along some farm road. The land is cheaper out there, and there are fewer zoning rules. They'll put in twisty residential streets with only one outlet onto that farm road. They won't bother with sidewalks, because nobody will use them. The residents will feel like pioneers, so proud of having a new, all-white neighborhood out in "the country." But someone will eventually say "Hey, I can put a gas station and convenience store at their corner and make a killing." So the parking lot lights begin to wash away the night sky, and the traffic increases. Soon another realty company builds another mushroom development nearby, which triggers a little shopping plaza, and on it goes. It all happens at low density, because everyone wants an acre of lawn to mow. If only it was like that. The reality is that if you want a little strip mall or even just a neighborhood pub then city hall will say "NOOO!" because it's all zoned residential. I'm talking about "development" extending out into former farm country, specifically because there is no zoning out there. These are places where there is no city hall, because they are not in a city. Connectivity is actively discouraged, because residents don't want strangers in their neighborhood at all. A motor vehicle - preferably an SUV - is the only socially acceptable way to enter or leave the neighborhood. And people wanting to escape from the traffic to and from those developments soon buy into another development further yet from town. The march continues. And if it's 30 miles to work or ten miles to get most groceries, who cares? We had friends from Dublin, Ireland stay with us some years ago. One of their most-repeated comments was "You have so much _room_ in America!" But they have a countryside free of endless strip malls. Next time in Ireland don't go to Dublin but to some little town north of Shannon, along the river. No sharply contrasting town limits, houses everywhere, lots of space. Yet they managed to always make sure there is a pub, a grocer, a barber and so on within walking or cycling distance. Cycling meaning not for you and me but for people who think that anything beyond 5mi on a bicycle is a Herculean job. I am pretty sure that the people we met in Ireland would refuse to move to an area where that wasn't so, where there wasn't at least a pub. We rented a house in Killaloe, small village, looks not much different from where I live now, just smaller. Neighborhood pubs on just about every street corner, Mollie's Pub was five minutes walking from our house (depending on how many pints of Guinness one has had). Neighborhood pubs here in our area? None. I just used Google Streets View to take a look north of Killaloe on R463. I didn't see the sorts of mushroom housing developments I'm talking about, nor the countryside strip malls. Contrast that with this view of Streetsboro, Ohio, a town I sometimes pass through: https://goo.gl/maps/bGwgtqiCEF12 Follow route 14 north to see the strip mall developments. Personally, I'd love to have a nice pub in walking distance of our house. There are a couple restaurants within a mile, although they're not the kind I would like. In any case, there are no sidewalks to access them. You're expected to arrive by car. After a few beers, you're expected to drive home. Go figure. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#35
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Making America into Amsterdam
On 2018-06-27 14:55, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2018 3:48 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-27 09:39, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/27/2018 10:24 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-26 17:50, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/26/2018 6:40 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-26 13:34, sms wrote: [...] You also have the issue that, despite the astr-turf YIMBY groups, that families with children generally want to live in single family homes. So do we. We also did in Europe and could walk to the dance club, to numerous pubs, grocery stores, railroad station, almost everywhere. How old were those European towns? When were they founded? Doesn't matter. I think it does matter. Why? Because, as I already said: I think there are different cultural or social expectations in Europe, most of which are influenced by history. Europe seems to generally have much more restrictive land use policies, and those policies seem to promote "infill" development. Example: In Britain, in Austria, etc. when we bicycle toured, I was struck by the practicality of city limits. There seemed to be a boundary around most towns, with apartments, houses, shops etc. on one side and little but fields and forests on the other side. We saw almost no rural convenience stores or gas stations, for example. People have been living close for hundreds of years, and they're used to such a system. Except that such difference are not truly there. Think back to when your relatives came from Europe. Probably not very wealthy, they likely settled in an east coast town very similar to a European one. Sprawl set in a bit earlier in America but not by much. The few years difference is because WW-II destroyed much of Europe but nothing inside the US. Europe had sprawl already before America as we know it existed and that can be witnessed in the UK, for example. It sure did not look like that to me and I grew up in Europe, lived there for decades. An example in Austria: http://www.cipra.org/de/dossiers/rau...192dc6c65.jpeg Here is the Reussebene, Switzerland as an example form another country: http://www.wohnblog.ch/wp-content/up...eb-800x504.jpg This is in the UK: https://www.groundsure.com/wp-conten..._437777299.jpg In each of your examples, I see what looks like dense development surrounded by rural fields. Get your glasses and look again :-) ... And Reussebene doesn't come up on Google Maps. Perhaps if you gave the locations, we could look at the satellite views and compare them with similar American towns. Sorry, but ever since they botched the font sizes Google Maps has become nearly useless to me. Can't read a thing. I have lived in Europe for decades and live in the US for decades. There is not much difference WRT sprawl with two exceptions: 1. The property sizes are a tad smaller in Europe but this is compensated for by more people per square mile needing a home. 2. They have less or no zoning laws. Unfortunately we do, and that's where the problem is. Here, we have a pioneer mentality. The reflex is to colonize new land, to take possession of our own acreage, and to fight any attempt to limit what we can do with it. So if a realty company wants to build 30 houses, of _course_ they will buy a corn field a few miles out of town along some farm road. The land is cheaper out there, and there are fewer zoning rules. They'll put in twisty residential streets with only one outlet onto that farm road. They won't bother with sidewalks, because nobody will use them. The residents will feel like pioneers, so proud of having a new, all-white neighborhood out in "the country." But someone will eventually say "Hey, I can put a gas station and convenience store at their corner and make a killing." So the parking lot lights begin to wash away the night sky, and the traffic increases. Soon another realty company builds another mushroom development nearby, which triggers a little shopping plaza, and on it goes. It all happens at low density, because everyone wants an acre of lawn to mow. If only it was like that. The reality is that if you want a little strip mall or even just a neighborhood pub then city hall will say "NOOO!" because it's all zoned residential. I'm talking about "development" extending out into former farm country, specifically because there is no zoning out there. These are places where there is no city hall, because they are not in a city. There will be a community services district or similar structure in place, prontissimo, and they will lord it over the people. That's also how it is where I lived. Connectivity is actively discouraged, because residents don't want strangers in their neighborhood at all. A motor vehicle - preferably an SUV - is the only socially acceptable way to enter or leave the neighborhood. And people wanting to escape from the traffic to and from those developments soon buy into another development further yet from town. The march continues. And if it's 30 miles to work or ten miles to get most groceries, who cares? We had friends from Dublin, Ireland stay with us some years ago. One of their most-repeated comments was "You have so much _room_ in America!" But they have a countryside free of endless strip malls. Next time in Ireland don't go to Dublin but to some little town north of Shannon, along the river. No sharply contrasting town limits, houses everywhere, lots of space. Yet they managed to always make sure there is a pub, a grocer, a barber and so on within walking or cycling distance. Cycling meaning not for you and me but for people who think that anything beyond 5mi on a bicycle is a Herculean job. I am pretty sure that the people we met in Ireland would refuse to move to an area where that wasn't so, where there wasn't at least a pub. We rented a house in Killaloe, small village, looks not much different from where I live now, just smaller. Neighborhood pubs on just about every street corner, Mollie's Pub was five minutes walking from our house (depending on how many pints of Guinness one has had). Neighborhood pubs here in our area? None. I just used Google Streets View to take a look north of Killaloe on R463. I didn't see the sorts of mushroom housing developments I'm talking about, nor the countryside strip malls. Huh? You need to see an optometrist. This is Killaloe: https://goo.gl/maps/tmT94zWyFLy Contrast that with this view of Streetsboro, Ohio, a town I sometimes pass through: https://goo.gl/maps/bGwgtqiCEF12 Follow route 14 north to see the strip mall developments. Go back to sat view on that. Structurally there is almost zero difference between that and Killaloe above. Q.e.d., as the old Romans would have said. Killaloe always was like that, dating back hundreds of years. Now it's just more. Personally, I'd love to have a nice pub in walking distance of our house. There are a couple restaurants within a mile, although they're not the kind I would like. In any case, there are no sidewalks to access them. You're expected to arrive by car. After a few beers, you're expected to drive home. Go figure. Well, I fixed that problem by having a brewery in the basement. If you want really fresh beer that is the only way out here. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#36
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Making America into Amsterdam
On 6/27/2018 11:39 AM, jbeattie wrote:
snip Mechanical disc brakes Triple Crankset, Sora or better Front 36 spoke wheel with SP PD-8 dynamo Rear 36 spoke wheel Stem Seat Post Seat Pedals Handlebars Chain That recommend should come as no surprise. Every time you post about mixtes, I link to the Soma. Here in the civilized world, you an buy them complete, but not cheaply. https://www.joe-bike.com/product/som...50-cm-4362.htm With sloping TT bikes with long headtubes and the proliferation of all sorts of city bikes, I really don't see the need for a mixte, but they are kind of retro cool. Shallow Alto is full of old Mixtes being used as transportational bikes. Cupertino is full of new ones, the one-speed Public Bikes bought by Apple, but not really for general use, even though some residents treat them like bike share bikes (I can only imagine what would happen if I rode one and someone saw me on it!). I hate it when mass-produced consumer products, sold at relatively low prices, suddenly become boutique products, sold in small quantities at high prices. You should be able to buy a quality Mixte transportational bicycle for $600-700, but when they are produced by a bike shop, buying frames and building them up one at a time, of course they are going to be very costly. |
#37
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Making America into Amsterdam
On 6/27/2018 11:39 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 11:18:06 AM UTC-7, sms wrote: On 6/27/2018 10:39 AM, AMuzi wrote: snip http://www.somafab.com/archives/prod...disc-frame-set revised model for 2018 Very nice. How much would a complete bicycle cost with that frame? I think that many potential customers would not want to buy every component at full retail price and build up a bicycle themselves, but would be okay with paying $1000-1200 for a complete bike. Especially in Palo Alto. Mechanical disc brakes Triple Crankset, Sora or better Front 36 spoke wheel with SP PD-8 dynamo Rear 36 spoke wheel Stem Seat Post Seat Pedals Handlebars Chain That recommend should come as no surprise. Every time you post about mixtes, I link to the Soma. Here in the civilized world, you an buy them complete, but not cheaply. https://www.joe-bike.com/product/som...50-cm-4362.htm With sloping TT bikes with long headtubes and the proliferation of all sorts of city bikes, I really don't see the need for a mixte, but they are kind of retro cool. Perhaps, but the Mixte frame has other advantages as well. For touring, it's very stable under load, unlike many "girl's bikes." It can be a road bike or a transportation bike, as long as the geometry is correct, with long enough chainstays. Now they are "retro," but the reasons for them go way beyond retro. |
#38
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Making America into Amsterdam
On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 4:56:33 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-27 14:55, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/27/2018 3:48 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-27 09:39, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/27/2018 10:24 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-26 17:50, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/26/2018 6:40 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-26 13:34, sms wrote: [...] You also have the issue that, despite the astr-turf YIMBY groups, that families with children generally want to live in single family homes. So do we. We also did in Europe and could walk to the dance club, to numerous pubs, grocery stores, railroad station, almost everywhere. How old were those European towns? When were they founded? Doesn't matter. I think it does matter. Why? Because, as I already said: I think there are different cultural or social expectations in Europe, most of which are influenced by history. Europe seems to generally have much more restrictive land use policies, and those policies seem to promote "infill" development. Example: In Britain, in Austria, etc. when we bicycle toured, I was struck by the practicality of city limits. There seemed to be a boundary around most towns, with apartments, houses, shops etc. on one side and little but fields and forests on the other side. We saw almost no rural convenience stores or gas stations, for example. People have been living close for hundreds of years, and they're used to such a system. Except that such difference are not truly there. Think back to when your relatives came from Europe. Probably not very wealthy, they likely settled in an east coast town very similar to a European one. Sprawl set in a bit earlier in America but not by much. The few years difference is because WW-II destroyed much of Europe but nothing inside the US. Europe had sprawl already before America as we know it existed and that can be witnessed in the UK, for example. It sure did not look like that to me and I grew up in Europe, lived there for decades. An example in Austria: http://www.cipra.org/de/dossiers/rau...192dc6c65.jpeg Here is the Reussebene, Switzerland as an example form another country: http://www.wohnblog.ch/wp-content/up...eb-800x504.jpg This is in the UK: https://www.groundsure.com/wp-conten..._437777299.jpg In each of your examples, I see what looks like dense development surrounded by rural fields. Get your glasses and look again :-) ... And Reussebene doesn't come up on Google Maps. Perhaps if you gave the locations, we could look at the satellite views and compare them with similar American towns. Sorry, but ever since they botched the font sizes Google Maps has become nearly useless to me. Can't read a thing. I have lived in Europe for decades and live in the US for decades. There is not much difference WRT sprawl with two exceptions: 1. The property sizes are a tad smaller in Europe but this is compensated for by more people per square mile needing a home. 2. They have less or no zoning laws. Unfortunately we do, and that's where the problem is. Here, we have a pioneer mentality. The reflex is to colonize new land, to take possession of our own acreage, and to fight any attempt to limit what we can do with it. So if a realty company wants to build 30 houses, of _course_ they will buy a corn field a few miles out of town along some farm road. The land is cheaper out there, and there are fewer zoning rules. They'll put in twisty residential streets with only one outlet onto that farm road. They won't bother with sidewalks, because nobody will use them. The residents will feel like pioneers, so proud of having a new, all-white neighborhood out in "the country." But someone will eventually say "Hey, I can put a gas station and convenience store at their corner and make a killing." So the parking lot lights begin to wash away the night sky, and the traffic increases. Soon another realty company builds another mushroom development nearby, which triggers a little shopping plaza, and on it goes. It all happens at low density, because everyone wants an acre of lawn to mow. If only it was like that. The reality is that if you want a little strip mall or even just a neighborhood pub then city hall will say "NOOO!" because it's all zoned residential. I'm talking about "development" extending out into former farm country, specifically because there is no zoning out there. These are places where there is no city hall, because they are not in a city. There will be a community services district or similar structure in place, prontissimo, and they will lord it over the people. That's also how it is where I lived. "Lord it over the people?" You mean that there is a governmental structure adopted by the residents that is applicable to people who move in with notice of that structure? My God, that is so repressive! Everything you needed to know about your community was available in the CC&Rs and the CSD filings BEFORE YOU MOVED IN. Don't buy into a synthetic town and then complain that it's a synthetic town. You could always go full Kaczynski and live in a 10 X 10 shack on some forgotten BLM land in the Badlands and not live in an airpark/golf course community with CC&Rs up the butt. I'm sure you would enjoy that. Plenty of room for beer brewing. -- Jay Beattie. |
#39
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Making America into Amsterdam
On 6/27/2018 7:56 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-27 14:55, Frank Krygowski wrote: I think there are different cultural or social expectations in Europe, most of which are influenced by history. Europe seems to generally have much more restrictive land use policies, and those policies seem to promote "infill" development. Example: In Britain, in Austria, etc. when we bicycle toured, I was struck by the practicality of city limits. There seemed to be a boundary around most towns, with apartments, houses, shops etc. on one side and little but fields and forests on the other side. We saw almost no rural convenience stores or gas stations, for example. People have been living close for hundreds of years, and they're used to such a system. Except that such difference are not truly there. Think back to when your relatives came from Europe. Probably not very wealthy, they likely settled in an east coast town very similar to a European one. Joerg, I'm talking about present day geography, not that of over 100 years ago. You (even you) can look up the population density of the U.S. vs. northern European countries. You can look up the population density of metropolitan areas both here and there, or typical home sizes, etc. There can be no question that the U.S. sprawls more in every way. There are some old U.S. cities where the city center itself is dense. But in America, metro areas often are described as "donuts" with lots of development in the surrounding suburbs, but very little happening in the city that forms the center. And the suburbs, where almost all new development happens, are all car-oriented. It's not only that business owners expect that everyone will arrive by car; it's also that their preferences and local regulations usually demand huge parking lots. Those big parking lots force tremendous reductions in density. I live just beyond the biggest strip mall shopping hell for our metro area. Sure, I can walk from (say) home to the hardware store to a nearby restaurant, then to the nearest grocery. I could then walk home. But in a dense inner city, such a trip would be a walk of perhaps several blocks. Here it's a trip of several miles. You chose to live in an exurban community that's a freeway drive away from the nearest real city. It seems strange that you claim that is somehow equivalent to central Amsterdam. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#40
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Making America into Amsterdam
On 2018-06-28 07:12, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 4:56:33 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-27 14:55, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/27/2018 3:48 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-27 09:39, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/27/2018 10:24 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-26 17:50, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/26/2018 6:40 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-26 13:34, sms wrote: [...] You also have the issue that, despite the astr-turf YIMBY groups, that families with children generally want to live in single family homes. So do we. We also did in Europe and could walk to the dance club, to numerous pubs, grocery stores, railroad station, almost everywhere. How old were those European towns? When were they founded? Doesn't matter. I think it does matter. Why? Because, as I already said: I think there are different cultural or social expectations in Europe, most of which are influenced by history. Europe seems to generally have much more restrictive land use policies, and those policies seem to promote "infill" development. Example: In Britain, in Austria, etc. when we bicycle toured, I was struck by the practicality of city limits. There seemed to be a boundary around most towns, with apartments, houses, shops etc. on one side and little but fields and forests on the other side. We saw almost no rural convenience stores or gas stations, for example. People have been living close for hundreds of years, and they're used to such a system. Except that such difference are not truly there. Think back to when your relatives came from Europe. Probably not very wealthy, they likely settled in an east coast town very similar to a European one. Sprawl set in a bit earlier in America but not by much. The few years difference is because WW-II destroyed much of Europe but nothing inside the US. Europe had sprawl already before America as we know it existed and that can be witnessed in the UK, for example. It sure did not look like that to me and I grew up in Europe, lived there for decades. An example in Austria: http://www.cipra.org/de/dossiers/rau...192dc6c65.jpeg Here is the Reussebene, Switzerland as an example form another country: http://www.wohnblog.ch/wp-content/up...eb-800x504.jpg This is in the UK: https://www.groundsure.com/wp-conten..._437777299.jpg In each of your examples, I see what looks like dense development surrounded by rural fields. Get your glasses and look again :-) ... And Reussebene doesn't come up on Google Maps. Perhaps if you gave the locations, we could look at the satellite views and compare them with similar American towns. Sorry, but ever since they botched the font sizes Google Maps has become nearly useless to me. Can't read a thing. I have lived in Europe for decades and live in the US for decades. There is not much difference WRT sprawl with two exceptions: 1. The property sizes are a tad smaller in Europe but this is compensated for by more people per square mile needing a home. 2. They have less or no zoning laws. Unfortunately we do, and that's where the problem is. Here, we have a pioneer mentality. The reflex is to colonize new land, to take possession of our own acreage, and to fight any attempt to limit what we can do with it. So if a realty company wants to build 30 houses, of _course_ they will buy a corn field a few miles out of town along some farm road. The land is cheaper out there, and there are fewer zoning rules. They'll put in twisty residential streets with only one outlet onto that farm road. They won't bother with sidewalks, because nobody will use them. The residents will feel like pioneers, so proud of having a new, all-white neighborhood out in "the country." But someone will eventually say "Hey, I can put a gas station and convenience store at their corner and make a killing." So the parking lot lights begin to wash away the night sky, and the traffic increases. Soon another realty company builds another mushroom development nearby, which triggers a little shopping plaza, and on it goes. It all happens at low density, because everyone wants an acre of lawn to mow. If only it was like that. The reality is that if you want a little strip mall or even just a neighborhood pub then city hall will say "NOOO!" because it's all zoned residential. I'm talking about "development" extending out into former farm country, specifically because there is no zoning out there. These are places where there is no city hall, because they are not in a city. There will be a community services district or similar structure in place, prontissimo, and they will lord it over the people. That's also how it is where I lived. "Lord it over the people?" You mean that there is a governmental structure adopted by the residents that is applicable to people who move in with notice of that structure? My God, that is so repressive! Everything you needed to know about your community was available in the CC&Rs and the CSD filings BEFORE YOU MOVED IN. Don't buy into a synthetic town and then complain that it's a synthetic town. Please follow the thread more closely. This was not about me or people moving in later. It was about people starting a business out in the boonies while it was still the boonies. Yes, they will lord it over them once the density increases. Examples are plentiful. Such as airports that date back almost to Lindbergh yet when developments went in they wer closed down or are under that threat for noise "pollution". Same with farms or food producers that have been there almost since the gold rush and now they get in trouble because some "urban cowboys" that should have stayed in the city moved into the country and can't bear the stench. You could always go full Kaczynski and live in a 10 X 10 shack on some forgotten BLM land in the Badlands and not live in an airpark/golf course community with CC&Rs up the butt. I'm sure you would enjoy that. Plenty of room for beer brewing. They'd even threaten you out there if someone with a big bank account decided to turn swaths of land around you into a "senior adventure living community" or whatever. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
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