Something I read in the News

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 20:57:54 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 09:58:10 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

Today's Bangkok Post had an article entitled "US careens towards
government shutdown". From reading the article it seems that the
President wants a 5 billion dollar budget for the Mexican Wall and
Congress doesn't want to give it to him.

5,000,000,000 divided by 1,954 miles is what? $25,588,536.33 a mile
(that may be wrong as I'm not used to working with really big numbers)

It's easier with exponential notation:
$5 billion = 5*10^9 dollars.
5*10^9 / 2*10^3 = 2.5*10^6 = 2.5 million dollars / mile

but even for the largest economy in the world that seems a tiny bit
expensive, doesn't it?

That's fairly close to what it would cost to build a 2 lane undivided
rural road:

Which they'll probably need to build to support the border patrols.

On 12/17/2018 8:58 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
Today's Bangkok Post had an article entitled "US careens towards
government shutdown". From reading the article it seems that the
President wants a 5 billion dollar budget for the Mexican Wall and
Congress doesn't want to give it to him.

5,000,000,000 divided by 1,954 miles is what? $25,588,536.33 a mile
(that may be wrong as I'm not used to working with really big numbers)
but even for the largest economy in the world that seems a tiny bit
expensive, doesn't it?

cheers,

John B.



John, you've worked in and out of government. States do
things which range from misguided, inept, pernicious to evil
but nothing they do could be called efficient.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 12/18/2018 12:56 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 22:38:54 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 12/17/2018 9:58 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
Today's Bangkok Post had an article entitled "US careens towards
government shutdown". From reading the article it seems that the
President wants a 5 billion dollar budget for the Mexican Wall and
Congress doesn't want to give it to him.

5,000,000,000 divided by 1,954 miles is what? $25,588,536.33 a mile
(that may be wrong as I'm not used to working with really big numbers)
but even for the largest economy in the world that seems a tiny bit
expensive, doesn't it?

That can't be true! When he was campaigning he promised Mexico was going
to pay for the wall! I heard him say so!

That darn Bangkok Post must be pushing fake news.

NO, the Bangkok Post prints only the Truth!

That is a bit of a tongue in cheek as the Post has never, in the
history of the paper, printed anything that was derogatory to the
government in power at press time :-O

Actually the Post quoted the AFP - Agency France Press - for that
tidbit.

I wonder why the U.S. doesn't follow Thailand in matter of illegal
immigrants. Here the only individuals that qualify for government
assistance of any sort are citizens , or, in some cases, legal workers
who pay taxes. Illegal immigrants are liable to jail terms but are
usually just extradited to their home country. AND, those who employ
illegal workers are liable to a 1 year jail term and a large fine. I'm
not sure about it but Thai law usually assigns one penalty per crime
committed, i.e., two illegal workers equals two years and double fine,
etc.

While finding that one will be hanged in a fortnight is said to
concentrates the mind wonderfully I also find that "no food unless you
earn it" tends to ensure that most people will be gainfully employed
:-)

cheers,

John B.



How would that advance more illegal alien voters for the
communist party?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 12/18/2018 1:20 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 20:57:54 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 09:58:10 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

Today's Bangkok Post had an article entitled "US careens towards
government shutdown". From reading the article it seems that the
President wants a 5 billion dollar budget for the Mexican Wall and
Congress doesn't want to give it to him.

5,000,000,000 divided by 1,954 miles is what? $25,588,536.33 a mile
(that may be wrong as I'm not used to working with really big numbers)

It's easier with exponential notation:
$5 billion = 5*10^9 dollars.
5*10^9 / 2*10^3 = 2.5*10^6 = 2.5 million dollars / mile

Well as I said, I don't do really big numbers :-) But still 2.5
million a mile is (unless I make another mistake) is 2.5 million
divided by 5,280 comes to $473.48 a foot, or in more precise terms
$39.45 an inch.


but even for the largest economy in the world that seems a tiny bit
expensive, doesn't it?

That's fairly close to what it would cost to build a 2 lane undivided
rural road:
https://medium.com/@TimSylvester/i-agree-it-sounds-astronomical-but-i-actually-understated-the-costs-according-to-artba-2e8baeac2a46

"Copying Israel's wall would cut Trump's price nearly in half"
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/copying-israels-wall-would-cut-trumps-price-nearly-in-half
Actually, the construction contract will probably go to one of the
major US construction companies, who will then subcontract the actual
work to smaller Mexican companies.

Mexican labor rates seem to be in the neighborhood of US$3.00 an hour
while U.S. rates are what? $10.00 an hour? Certainly labor is not the
only costs involved but even so, at $39.45 an inch a chap might be
able to make a buck or two :-)

And yes, the major U.S. construction companies will be standing in
line to get their fingers in that pot.


cheers,

John B.



Add in logistics cost to move labor and materials to remote
areas. Then add survey and planning (expensive labor in
remote areas) and a few years of paper pushing for all the
various 'studies'. Material may be the smallest item in the
project.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 12/18/2018 1:36 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 21:11:04 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 8:58:15 PM UTC-6, John B. Slocomb wrote:
Today's Bangkok Post had an article entitled "US careens towards
government shutdown". From reading the article it seems that the
President wants a 5 billion dollar budget for the Mexican Wall and
Congress doesn't want to give it to him.

5,000,000,000 divided by 1,954 miles is what? $25,588,536.33 a mile
(that may be wrong as I'm not used to working with really big numbers)
but even for the largest economy in the world that seems a tiny bit
expensive, doesn't it?

cheers,

John B.


What Jeff said. $2.5 million per mile of fencing. Not $25.
Given the cost of everything the government buys, $2.5 million for a
mile of fence doesn't really sound too extreme. We pay
$10-20-30-40-50 Billion for every airplane or boat we buy for the
military. So $2.5 million per mile is change we could find in the
couch. Of course the fence could just be a single strand of electric
fence with a stake stuck in the ground every 100 yards. All put up by
some Mexican illegal immigrants paid below minimum wage. And the
contractor could be laughing at how he made out like a bandit stealing
money from the government as he jets off to Hawaii for vacation. That
sounds far more reasonable. And of course this crook will make a $2.5
million donation to the Republican party and his buddies.

Yes, as I said, I don't work well with really large numbers but
then... there are such things a "cost overruns". The San Francisco
bridge was originally estimates at $250 million and actual costs were
about $6.5 billion. At that rate the 5 billion might just be a drop in
the bucket.

Re the $10-20-30-40-50 Billion. President Eisenhower, in his farewell
address warned about the potential influence of the "military -
industrial complex". Did anyone listen?

cheers,

John B.



Here's how things don't work out here in the real world:

https://www.constructiondive.com/new...poor-p/542635/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 1:56:23 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:

I wonder why the U.S. doesn't follow Thailand in matter of illegal
immigrants. Here the only individuals that qualify for government
assistance of any sort are citizens , or, in some cases, legal workers
who pay taxes. Illegal immigrants are liable to jail terms but are
usually just extradited to their home country. AND, those who employ
illegal workers are liable to a 1 year jail term and a large fine. I'm
not sure about it but Thai law usually assigns one penalty per crime
committed, i.e., two illegal workers equals two years and double fine,
etc.

While finding that one will be hanged in a fortnight is said to
concentrates the mind wonderfully I also find that "no food unless you
earn it" tends to ensure that most people will be gainfully employed.

Well, I think this issue is extremely complex. Some salient points:

First, the U.S. is a nation of immigrants. During most of its history
it needed to actively import people to make use of the huge amount
of virgin land, to do farm work, to build railroads, to keep the
factories running. That's how and why my grandparents came here.

It's still true that lots of businesses - agriculture and everything
else, from lawn care to manufacturing - want cheap labor. There must
be thousands of businesses owned by people all across the political
spectrum who depend on people with questionable papers who are
willing to work for less.

And I think for most of those people, it's not a question of "no work
so no food" policies chasing them home. They work and work hard.
I read a couple articles last year about tomatoes rotting in fields
because the people who used to pick them were now too afraid to work.
The farm owner said he couldn't get "regular Americans" to do the
work. They wouldn't put up with the job for more than one day.

There's also the bit about asylum. I once helped a foreign guy get
asylum, albeit unwittingly. (He asked me to write him a letter
inviting him to visit. When he landed, he applied for and received
asylum.) Because of its history, the US has laws allowing people to
seek asylum. I suppose some might want to go back in time and stop
those laws from being written. But odds are they were logical when
written, and are probably fairly logical now.

The big influx from Central America certainly contains many people
who are literally fleeing for their lives. From what I've read, some
of that is precipitated by past U.S. policies in Central America.
And I'll note that one relative of mine works for an agency that
supports refugees in some ways. There are horrible stories to hear.

Also, I think there's little comparison between U.S. and Thailand.
This is a huge country with an enormous economy and lots of
prosperity. There's a long, long land border with Mexico, a much
poorer country. That means there's a lot of motivation to sneak
across that border and serious difficulty preventing the crossings.

Which is not to say Trump's wall would really work. It would stop
those walking across, probably a small percentage. Until, perhaps,
the ladder was invented.

Overall, it's a complicated problem. America is filled with know-
nothings who think every problem is easy. But this problem would
be tricky even if millions of people didn't make millions of dollars
by hiring illegal immigrants. Those people - many of whom are well
connected politically - will stand in the way of any fierce
enforcement against firms that employ these people.

And it's not even necessarily big firms. When you need your grass
cut and you check the bulletin board at the grocery store, you
call around for the best price. You don't say "Oh, and let me see
your citizenship papers." Hell, it recently came out that Trump has
had (and probably still has) illegal immigrants working for him.

- Frank Krygowski

On 12/18/2018 12:18 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 1:56:23 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:

I wonder why the U.S. doesn't follow Thailand in matter of illegal
immigrants. Here the only individuals that qualify for government
assistance of any sort are citizens , or, in some cases, legal workers
who pay taxes. Illegal immigrants are liable to jail terms but are
usually just extradited to their home country. AND, those who employ
illegal workers are liable to a 1 year jail term and a large fine. I'm
not sure about it but Thai law usually assigns one penalty per crime
committed, i.e., two illegal workers equals two years and double fine,
etc.

While finding that one will be hanged in a fortnight is said to
concentrates the mind wonderfully I also find that "no food unless you
earn it" tends to ensure that most people will be gainfully employed.

Well, I think this issue is extremely complex. Some salient points:

First, the U.S. is a nation of immigrants. During most of its history
it needed to actively import people to make use of the huge amount
of virgin land, to do farm work, to build railroads, to keep the
factories running. That's how and why my grandparents came here.

It's still true that lots of businesses - agriculture and everything
else, from lawn care to manufacturing - want cheap labor. There must
be thousands of businesses owned by people all across the political
spectrum who depend on people with questionable papers who are
willing to work for less.

And I think for most of those people, it's not a question of "no work
so no food" policies chasing them home. They work and work hard.
I read a couple articles last year about tomatoes rotting in fields
because the people who used to pick them were now too afraid to work.
The farm owner said he couldn't get "regular Americans" to do the
work. They wouldn't put up with the job for more than one day.

There's also the bit about asylum. I once helped a foreign guy get
asylum, albeit unwittingly. (He asked me to write him a letter
inviting him to visit. When he landed, he applied for and received
asylum.) Because of its history, the US has laws allowing people to
seek asylum. I suppose some might want to go back in time and stop
those laws from being written. But odds are they were logical when
written, and are probably fairly logical now.

The big influx from Central America certainly contains many people
who are literally fleeing for their lives. From what I've read, some
of that is precipitated by past U.S. policies in Central America.
And I'll note that one relative of mine works for an agency that
supports refugees in some ways. There are horrible stories to hear.

Also, I think there's little comparison between U.S. and Thailand.
This is a huge country with an enormous economy and lots of
prosperity. There's a long, long land border with Mexico, a much
poorer country. That means there's a lot of motivation to sneak
across that border and serious difficulty preventing the crossings.

Which is not to say Trump's wall would really work. It would stop
those walking across, probably a small percentage. Until, perhaps,
the ladder was invented.

Overall, it's a complicated problem. America is filled with know-
nothings who think every problem is easy. But this problem would
be tricky even if millions of people didn't make millions of dollars
by hiring illegal immigrants. Those people - many of whom are well
connected politically - will stand in the way of any fierce
enforcement against firms that employ these people.

And it's not even necessarily big firms. When you need your grass
cut and you check the bulletin board at the grocery store, you
call around for the best price. You don't say "Oh, and let me see
your citizenship papers." Hell, it recently came out that Trump has
had (and probably still has) illegal immigrants working for him.


Wall- necessary but not sufficient. Won't solve all
problems, or even most, but necessary.

Immigrants- Yes we children of immigrants love immigrants.
Illegal invaders are not the same as immigrants. Conflating
terms is not helpful.

Public charge- Logically, immigrants are proscribed from
being a public charge with good reason.

Laws unenforced or ignored altogether-
https://ktla.com/2018/12/17/man-dies...entral-valley/



--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 11:40:46 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/18/2018 12:18 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 1:56:23 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:

I wonder why the U.S. doesn't follow Thailand in matter of illegal
immigrants. Here the only individuals that qualify for government
assistance of any sort are citizens , or, in some cases, legal workers
who pay taxes. Illegal immigrants are liable to jail terms but are
usually just extradited to their home country. AND, those who employ
illegal workers are liable to a 1 year jail term and a large fine. I'm
not sure about it but Thai law usually assigns one penalty per crime
committed, i.e., two illegal workers equals two years and double fine,
etc.

While finding that one will be hanged in a fortnight is said to
concentrates the mind wonderfully I also find that "no food unless you
earn it" tends to ensure that most people will be gainfully employed.

Well, I think this issue is extremely complex. Some salient points:

First, the U.S. is a nation of immigrants. During most of its history
it needed to actively import people to make use of the huge amount
of virgin land, to do farm work, to build railroads, to keep the
factories running. That's how and why my grandparents came here.

It's still true that lots of businesses - agriculture and everything
else, from lawn care to manufacturing - want cheap labor. There must
be thousands of businesses owned by people all across the political
spectrum who depend on people with questionable papers who are
willing to work for less.

And I think for most of those people, it's not a question of "no work
so no food" policies chasing them home. They work and work hard.
I read a couple articles last year about tomatoes rotting in fields
because the people who used to pick them were now too afraid to work.
The farm owner said he couldn't get "regular Americans" to do the
work. They wouldn't put up with the job for more than one day.

There's also the bit about asylum. I once helped a foreign guy get
asylum, albeit unwittingly. (He asked me to write him a letter
inviting him to visit. When he landed, he applied for and received
asylum.) Because of its history, the US has laws allowing people to
seek asylum. I suppose some might want to go back in time and stop
those laws from being written. But odds are they were logical when
written, and are probably fairly logical now.

The big influx from Central America certainly contains many people
who are literally fleeing for their lives. From what I've read, some
of that is precipitated by past U.S. policies in Central America.
And I'll note that one relative of mine works for an agency that
supports refugees in some ways. There are horrible stories to hear.

Also, I think there's little comparison between U.S. and Thailand.
This is a huge country with an enormous economy and lots of
prosperity. There's a long, long land border with Mexico, a much
poorer country. That means there's a lot of motivation to sneak
across that border and serious difficulty preventing the crossings.

Which is not to say Trump's wall would really work. It would stop
those walking across, probably a small percentage. Until, perhaps,
the ladder was invented.

Overall, it's a complicated problem. America is filled with know-
nothings who think every problem is easy. But this problem would
be tricky even if millions of people didn't make millions of dollars
by hiring illegal immigrants. Those people - many of whom are well
connected politically - will stand in the way of any fierce
enforcement against firms that employ these people.

And it's not even necessarily big firms. When you need your grass
cut and you check the bulletin board at the grocery store, you
call around for the best price. You don't say "Oh, and let me see
your citizenship papers." Hell, it recently came out that Trump has
had (and probably still has) illegal immigrants working for him.


Wall- necessary but not sufficient. Won't solve all
problems, or even most, but necessary.

Immigrants- Yes we children of immigrants love immigrants.
Illegal invaders are not the same as immigrants. Conflating
terms is not helpful.

Public charge- Logically, immigrants are proscribed from
being a public charge with good reason.

Laws unenforced or ignored altogether-
https://ktla.com/2018/12/17/man-dies...entral-valley/


The wall only became necessary when Trump ran for president. It certainly isn't necessary he https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5...423_r31920.jpg Unless there are invading hordes of Mexican rock climbers. I'd worry more about hang-gliders. Nets! We need nets!

There were already appropriations for new sections of fencing. There still are appropriations for new sections of fencing -- even in the proposed Democratic budget. There just isn't a budget for a dopey border-to-border mega-wall through inaccessible terrain. This is all pandering to the base. Sad! Wall-hunt! No Collusion!

-- Jay Beattie.

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 7:38:58 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2018 9:58 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
Today's Bangkok Post had an article entitled "US careens towards
government shutdown". From reading the article it seems that the
President wants a 5 billion dollar budget for the Mexican Wall and
Congress doesn't want to give it to him.

5,000,000,000 divided by 1,954 miles is what? $25,588,536.33 a mile
(that may be wrong as I'm not used to working with really big numbers)
but even for the largest economy in the world that seems a tiny bit
expensive, doesn't it?

That can't be true! When he was campaigning he promised Mexico was going
to pay for the wall! I heard him say so!

That darn Bangkok Post must be pushing fake news.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Did you also hear that we have a new North American Free Trade Act that makes 5 billion seem like chickenfeed? Or doesn't that count with you? Mexico HAS already paid for it.

On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 12:18:29 PM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:

It's still true that lots of businesses - agriculture and everything
else, from lawn care to manufacturing - want cheap labor. There must
be thousands of businesses owned by people all across the political
spectrum who depend on people with questionable papers who are
willing to work for less.


Here in Iowa every year or two we get a story about a chicken or pork processing plant being raided by the Immigration department. 100% of the plant workers are illegal immigrants. And 90+% of the small town the plant is in is also illegal immigrants. The plant gets shut down and fined maybe. And the town dries up and blows away. There are 100s of meat packing plants in the Midwest. They have a few hundred to a thousand or so employees. All are illegal immigrants. Except the bosses, they are white Americans. So if you eat meat, or fruit, or vegetables in the USA, rest assured that an illegal immigrant touched your food.