Backpack or pannier

On 4/13/2014 12:47 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, April 13, 2014 12:29:46 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:


I'm curious how much you've actually used front low rider panniers,
and on what type of bike.

Seems that you belive that adding a lowrider rack and pannier(s)will not negqtively
affect the handling of a bicycle.

First, let me repeat that I'm _still_ curious how much you've actually
used front low rider panniers, and on what type of bike. Your
statements are sounding speculation-based.

Okay. Take a bicycle, any bicycle and try riding
it with no hands. Now put a lowrider rack on that bike add panniers with a commuting
load in them and try riding it with no hands/ I'm positive you'llnotice a deterioration
in the handling of the bicycle with the lowrider rack and panniers on it.

I haven't used low-riders for a commuting load. I have used them on
many long tours, with full camping load, which (at least for me) is much
heavier than a commuting load.

The change in steering that I've always noticed is that the bike reacts
more slowly. That difference is immediately obvious. Again, it's the
opposite of "twitchy."

It is still possible to ride no-hands, at least on the Cannondale I've
used for most of my touring. It may be more difficult; I can't really
recall. I'll admit I don't do it as much when I have a load, partly
because I'm (even) more careful then, and partly because on a long tour,
I tend to treat myself very kindly. I'm willing to stop much more
frequently either for breaks or to, say, take off a jacket.

A gust of wind could have you eating pavement before you know it if you ride a
front lowerider rack bike with panniers no hands.

Well, that's not my experience. Maybe I haven't hit enough wind gusts.
I remain curious about your experience.

As an additional thought. Why do you think thst bar end shifters,
Brifters or Ergo levers are prefered by most riders instead of downtube
shifters when carrying gear on their bike - especially gear on a front
lowrider rack?

I think the _main_ reason most riders prefer shifters in places other
than the downtube is because it's now rare to find a bike for sale with
downtube shifters! That's especially true for touring bikes.

Personally, I moved from downtube shifters to bar end shifters in the
1970s and 1980s because the downtube shifters on the old Raleigh (the
one that's now my utility bike) were a bit low for my reach, requiring
me to bend down a bit. I realized I was having to do a sort of mini
pushup each time I wanted to shift.

The last bike I bought was a Bike Friday, which was custom built.
There, the options didn't even include downtube shifters, due to frame
design. Between STI and bar-ends, I chose the latter.

Incidentally, the Friday is certainly "twitchier" than the other bikes I
own, although it's certainly not objectionable. Perhaps I should
consider low rider front bags, to damp that effect! But I've come to
really like a completely different luggage scheme for the type of travel
we do with those bikes.
--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/13/2014 1:31 AM, James wrote:
On 13/04/14 09:55, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Take a pure racing bike, ride it, add a front lowrider rack and load
some stuff into panniers attached to that rack, ride that *SAME* bike
again. Notice difference in handling. Cross winds and strong gusts
will really affect the handling of a racing bike with panniers on a
low rider rack. That wind is also why discsor disc covers are not a
good idea on a road bike on the road but are okay on the rear wheel.

I guess there's a couple of things. A "pure racing bike" might not be
as stiff and strong as a heavy and solid touring bike. Also the wheel
base might be shorter on a racing bike.

One of my friends once bought a really nice custom touring frame, a
steel frame built just for him. (This was back in 1991, I think.) He
came along on one short tour with my family. He was very disappointed
to find that the bike had terrible shimmy at any speed over about 25
mph. Since he was using the same panniers that I was, we suspected that
the tubing itself was too flexible.

And it's possible he specified a super-light tube set, even thought
that's not wise in a touring frame. He is the most "weight weenie" of
all my bike friends.

Anyway, tubing choice, material choice, etc. certainly can make a bike
less stiff. I happen to really like the stiffness of my touring
Cannondale, although I gather there are people who would not.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 13/04/14 19:46, sms wrote:
On 4/12/2014 2:41 PM, James wrote:
On 13/04/14 02:16, Frank Krygowski wrote:


It's fine by me if people prefer backpacks. The descriptions of
benefits and detriments should be realistic, though. I don't think
twitchiness from front panniers is realistic.


My first full size bicycle was a Repco Superlite. Not very "lite"
actually. Just 4130 CroMo steel and cheap parts.

I joined the local touring club and went camping touring a few times on
that bike. It had eyelets on the drop outs.

Ok, it wasn't high end race, even for back in the 80's, but it handled
fine with heavy panniers, front and back and a handlebar bag.

I only noticed the twitchiness on fast downhill runs where speeds can
get up into the 40 MPH range. This was on a true touring bicycle with a
low rider rack, front and rear panniers.

If anything, steering becomes heavy with front panniers, but isn't very
noticeable at speed, where turn radii are big.

As someone else mentioned it may have been crosswinds hitting the front
panniers and causing the problem (this was out on the California and
Oregon coasts). I don't know if it would have been better or worse on a
shorter wheelbase bike. I'm sure that with a front high-mount rack that
it would have been even worse.

If you read the sales blurb on low rider racks back then, they claimed
that the extra weight, low on the fork, would actually help stability.
But they didn't take crosswinds into account.

My guess is that if the pannier is about centred on the steering axis,
the wind side load wont try to turn the front wheel.

--
JS

On 13/04/14 19:46, sms wrote:
On 4/12/2014 2:41 PM, James wrote:
On 13/04/14 02:16, Frank Krygowski wrote:


It's fine by me if people prefer backpacks. The descriptions of
benefits and detriments should be realistic, though. I don't think
twitchiness from front panniers is realistic.


My first full size bicycle was a Repco Superlite. Not very "lite"
actually. Just 4130 CroMo steel and cheap parts.

I joined the local touring club and went camping touring a few times on
that bike. It had eyelets on the drop outs.

Ok, it wasn't high end race, even for back in the 80's, but it handled
fine with heavy panniers, front and back and a handlebar bag.

I only noticed the twitchiness on fast downhill runs where speeds can
get up into the 40 MPH range. This was on a true touring bicycle with a
low rider rack, front and rear panniers.

If anything, steering becomes heavy with front panniers, but isn't very
noticeable at speed, where turn radii are big.

As someone else mentioned it may have been crosswinds hitting the front
panniers and causing the problem (this was out on the California and
Oregon coasts). I don't know if it would have been better or worse on a
shorter wheelbase bike. I'm sure that with a front high-mount rack that
it would have been even worse.

If you read the sales blurb on low rider racks back then, they claimed
that the extra weight, low on the fork, would actually help stability.
But they didn't take crosswinds into account.

My guess is that if the pannier is about centred on the steering axis,
the wind side load wont try to turn the front wheel.

I guess a wind gust not at some angle, not side on or direct head wind,
may affect one pannier more than the other. The other may be in the
wind shadow of the first.

--
JS

On 14/04/14 04:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/13/2014 1:31 AM, James wrote:
On 13/04/14 09:55, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Take a pure racing bike, ride it, add a front lowrider rack and load
some stuff into panniers attached to that rack, ride that *SAME* bike
again. Notice difference in handling. Cross winds and strong gusts
will really affect the handling of a racing bike with panniers on a
low rider rack. That wind is also why discsor disc covers are not a
good idea on a road bike on the road but are okay on the rear wheel.

I guess there's a couple of things. A "pure racing bike" might not be
as stiff and strong as a heavy and solid touring bike. Also the wheel
base might be shorter on a racing bike.

One of my friends once bought a really nice custom touring frame, a
steel frame built just for him. (This was back in 1991, I think.) He
came along on one short tour with my family. He was very disappointed
to find that the bike had terrible shimmy at any speed over about 25
mph. Since he was using the same panniers that I was, we suspected that
the tubing itself was too flexible.

And it's possible he specified a super-light tube set, even thought
that's not wise in a touring frame. He is the most "weight weenie" of
all my bike friends.

Anyway, tubing choice, material choice, etc. certainly can make a bike
less stiff. I happen to really like the stiffness of my touring
Cannondale, although I gather there are people who would not.


Yes, in 1991 the available steel tubes were still 1" diameter.

You can do a lot better these days with oversize steel tubes, that are
very similar weight, but a hell of a lot stiffer.

My frame uses (Columbus Spirit) 1.125" and 1.25" tubes in the main
triangle and is TIG welded.

My 1993 frame (Reynolds 853) has 1" tubes in the main triangle and is
lugged.

The frames are the same size. The 1993 frame is actually 50g heavier,
and quite noticeably more flexible. I wouldn't want it as a touring
bike, but it might be ok as a CX bike, being a bit softer. If only the
clearances around the back wheel were bigger.

--
JS

My guess is that if the pannier is about centred on the steering axis,

the wind side load wont try to turn the front wheel.


unless you stand it right side up....

On Sunday, April 13, 2014 2:39:50 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/13/2014 1:31 AM, James wrote:

On 13/04/14 09:55, Sir Ridesalot wrote:



Take a pure racing bike, ride it, add a front lowrider rack and load

some stuff into panniers attached to that rack, ride that *SAME* bike

again. Notice difference in handling. Cross winds and strong gusts

will really affect the handling of a racing bike with panniers on a

low rider rack. That wind is also why discsor disc covers are not a

good idea on a road bike on the road but are okay on the rear wheel.



I guess there's a couple of things. A "pure racing bike" might not be

as stiff and strong as a heavy and solid touring bike. Also the wheel

base might be shorter on a racing bike.



One of my friends once bought a really nice custom touring frame, a

steel frame built just for him. (This was back in 1991, I think.) He

came along on one short tour with my family. He was very disappointed

to find that the bike had terrible shimmy at any speed over about 25

mph. Since he was using the same panniers that I was, we suspected that

the tubing itself was too flexible.



And it's possible he specified a super-light tube set, even thought

that's not wise in a touring frame. He is the most "weight weenie" of

all my bike friends.



Anyway, tubing choice, material choice, etc. certainly can make a bike

less stiff. I happen to really like the stiffness of my touring

Cannondale, although I gather there are people who would not.



--

- Frank Krygowski

###################

GNAW this tubing biz is a lotta whoeee. ITS THE CONTACT PATCH ****** !

your firend bought a super nice tourer then loaded the rear unbalancing front where tire/rim/hub may have minor probs. Figure incorrect tire pressures...

deal is contact patch looses adhesion on bumps then goes into a shimmy.

we advise filling a gallon water jug half full tying to top tube then sliding jug for the sweet spot rebalancing the rig without unloading/reloading.

has Frank toured Lake Eire ? we had herd the lake was coated in stinking green slime then Sea Kayaker did 2 reviews both ends sounds kinda Midwest nice.

On Sunday, April 13, 2014 5:46:56 AM UTC-4, sms wrote:

I only noticed the twitchiness on fast downhill runs where speeds can
get up into the 40 MPH range. This was on a true touring bicycle with a
low rider rack, front and rear panniers.

My Cannondale, with low rider front panniers, rear panniers, handlebar bag plus
tent & sleeping bag atop the rear rack, has exceeded 45 mph many times. No
problems whatsoever.

The most exciting time was descending Lolo Pass into Idaho. It was a
high-adrenaline scene for a few minutes. I kept thinking that if the heat from
braking blew a tire, I'd be in deep trouble; so I didn't brake much. But I
also kept thinking that if I ran off the road, I'd also be in deep trouble.

But no trouble occurred. The bike tracked perfectly then, as always.


If you read the sales blurb on low rider racks back then, they claimed
that the extra weight, low on the fork, would actually help stability.
But they didn't take crosswinds into account.

And you know that... how? Seems it would be an odd thing for them to mention. "BTW, we forgot to ride in crosswinds."

I recall reading not a sales blurb, but an article describing how Jim Blackburn
tested load placement schemes by mounting weights to bikes in various positions,
then doing test rides. He claimed, IIRC, that low in front, but close to the
rider and _not_ low in back worked best.

IME, that scheme is indeed best. I've used others (rear panniers plus
handlebar bag, mostly) and I've certainly done well enough with them. But
handling is best with a good portion of the weight moved forward and low.

- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, April 13, 2014 6:46:00 PM UTC-4, x wrote:

has Frank toured Lake Eire ? we had herd the lake was coated in stinking green slime then Sea Kayaker did 2 reviews both ends sounds kinda Midwest nice.

I've toured near some lakes in Eire, notably the ones near Killarney.

I've also toured the south shore of Lake Erie in the U.S., from Buffalo
to near Cleveland on a couple different trips. Most of that was on a ride
from Toronto to NE Ohio.

The thing I remember most was brutal headwinds, riding down on the aero bars,
staring at my cyclometer as it said "8 mph" for hours. Didn't get close
enough to the Lake to inspect water quality on those rides. But we were
at a beach on Lake Erie last fall. It was very nice indeed.

- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, April 13, 2014 8:31:56 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Sunday, April 13, 2014 5:46:56 AM UTC-4, sms wrote:



I only noticed the twitchiness on fast downhill runs where speeds can

get up into the 40 MPH range. This was on a true touring bicycle with a

low rider rack, front and rear panniers.



My Cannondale, with low rider front panniers, rear panniers, handlebar bag plus

tent & sleeping bag atop the rear rack, has exceeded 45 mph many times. No

problems whatsoever.



The most exciting time was descending Lolo Pass into Idaho. It was a

high-adrenaline scene for a few minutes. I kept thinking that if the heat from

braking blew a tire, I'd be in deep trouble; so I didn't brake much. But I

also kept thinking that if I ran off the road, I'd also be in deep trouble.



But no trouble occurred. The bike tracked perfectly then, as always.





If you read the sales blurb on low rider racks back then, they claimed

that the extra weight, low on the fork, would actually help stability.

But they didn't take crosswinds into account.



And you know that... how? Seems it would be an odd thing for them to mention. "BTW, we forgot to ride in crosswinds."



I recall reading not a sales blurb, but an article describing how Jim Blackburn

tested load placement schemes by mounting weights to bikes in various positions,

then doing test rides. He claimed, IIRC, that low in front, but close to the

rider and _not_ low in back worked best.



IME, that scheme is indeed best. I've used others (rear panniers plus

handlebar bag, mostly) and I've certainly done well enough with them. But

handling is best with a good portion of the weight moved forward and low.



- Frank Krygowski

I have been talking about commuting on a road racing bicycle not a loaded tourng bike.

A front lowrider rack on any bike lowers the center of gravity more than the same load on a front deck rack would and also allows the pannier to be mounted further aft towards the bike itself rather than hanging off the rack forward of the steering axis as it would on a platform front rack. Both of those improves handling.

A handlebar bag is about the worst lace you could hang a lot of weight on a bicycle as it too is mostly forward of the steering axis and creates a high center of gravity on the steering. Most cycling books and magazines warn about utting much weight in a handlebar bag lest the steering deteriorate.

Slow to move off track is also slow to recover. Thus the lowrider is still better than a higher rack. But again this thread is about commuting ona racing bike.

The nicest setup I had on any bike were my front AND rear lowrider racks. They had an open deck, lowrider racks, and a protrusion pointing downward from the middle of each side of the rack that a strap or something could be hooked onto. Many times I'd hook the handles of a grocery bag on that protrusion, swing the bag over the rack and secure it to the side of the rack with a strap. It was great for those unexpected stops when riding without a pannier.

Here's an image of the same racks but on my friend's bike.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/738325...n/photostream/

Cheers