favorites in mountains of Switzerland

I was glad to get to try out some of the high passes in Switzerland
suggested on this newsgroup in the last couple of months by Sergio and
Roberto, and the ever-helpful reports from Jobst Brandt.
I've put some photos up at
http://www.roberts-1.com/t/b06/ch/k
So now I'm ready for some more ideas on favorite places -- and why we like
(or don't like) them.

favorite Passes so far:
* Grosse Scheidegg -- for outstanding close-up views of dramatic mountains
with snow. I liked doing it east-to-west like Roberto suggested: views ahead
of peaks for a long time during the climb (instead of waiting until reach
the top), plus variety of water and buildings. Then more views at the top,
and some fun curvy sections lower on descent to Grindelwald. I would not
have know to ride this great pass if Sergio and Roberto had not suggested
it.

* Sustenpass -- for dramatic mountains with snow and cows + houses in quiet
valley. I liked east-to-west because I got a long look at the dramatic
Titlis peak starting low, then more peaks revealed in stages higher -- while
looking down on the valley when I wanted. More mountains fairly close just
past the top, and a variety of villages and scenes on the long descent.

* Grand St Bernard -- several views of different dramatic mountains with
snow, with villages and a couple of substantial lakes. Perhaps more vehicle
traffic than other passes, though it seemed like the heavy trucks prefer to
take the Mont Blanc tunnel. It worked for me to do it north-to-south because
the tunnels felt OK to me while climbing (I had a flashing light and
reflective ankle bands, but the tunnels often had some light from the
side) -- and I liked the long early views ahead while I climbed toward the
Grand Combin peak. More dramatic mountains over the top, but the descent
could have had more interesting views and curves.
______________
other passes with good points:
* Grimsel for lakes + dams -- riding it north-to-south I found the lower
half of the north side was kinda boring, and the descent of the south side
was mostly just straight shots to tight hairpin curves -- so I suspect I'd
have liked it better it south-to-north.

* Furka for big views on its west side -- but the upper half of east side
lacks high mountain views, and the valley floor is too far below to see much
there. Having tried it both ways, I definitely prefer west-to-east. (Overall
I like Susten better, but I suspect lots of long-distance tourers do Furka
because it connects to Andermatt and Oberalp pass without the tunnels north
of Andermatt.)

* Nufenen West side for views of Berner Oberland and Ticino high peaks with
snow -- but the views are not real close, and the west side felt kinda
desolate to me, not many animals or houses. East side didn't have much
mountain views, and I didn't like the joints in the concrete on the descent
of the upper part, though the lower part had some more fun sections. (and I
did not like putting it into a loop with Gotthard pass)
______________
favorite Loop tours so far:
* Grosse Scheidegg - Brienzersee (clockwise thru Interlaken, Meiringen,
Grindelwald) -- To the great pass the loop adds nice lakeside views and some
pleasant quiet valley riding (and more vehicle traffic between Grindelwald +
Interlaken, another reason to prefer clockwise to get thru that faster). I
rode the south side of the Brienzersee lake following the national bike
route, which was quiet, but got me into some gravel and complicated turns --
not sure how it would work to ride around the north side of the Brienzersee.

* Susten - Grimsel - Furka passes (counter-clockwise thru Wassen,
Innertkirchen, Gletsch, Realp, Andermatt) -- Each of the three passes feels
different, and the whole thing feels like a great achievement. My thinking
is that the clockwise direction might be better for enjoying Grimsel -- but
counter-clockwise fits better with maximizing enjoyment of Susten + Furka --
and especially with handling the required tunnels between Andermatt and
Goeschenen.

* Grand St Bernard - Col du Grand Ferret (clockwise thru Orsieres, Aosta,
Courmayeur, la Fouly) -- I found that the loop added the superlative close
views of the highest mountains in Europe, while riding thru Courmayeur and
la Palud and lower (Italian) Val Ferret, and some fun downhill cruising
between la Fouly and Orseires on smooth pavement. But especially it adds the
adventure of handling going up and down the unpaved hiking trail. I was glad
for Jobst's idea of riding Ferret south-to-north because hiking trail on the
north side is much gentler (and mostly not as rocky as Col de la Seigne),
while the south side was very steep and had lots of "water bars" across the
trail -- so I was able to descend much of the north side on my bike. I did
have to carry my bike in several sections to get it up the south side, took
serious arm + leg strength. But I'd do it again.
______________
notes on other passes:
* Gotthard pass / Passo San Gottardo: seemed like 60-70% cobbles on the
south side, and about 3km of cobbles on the north side. Not much
compensation in views. I'd need to hear a really good reason why I'd ever
try riding it again. Is it legal (or reasonable) to ride on the Autobahn
when descending the upper North side?

* Col du Pillon had some nice mountain views and a pleasant descent on its
East side thru Gsteig. Of the passes I tried around there, it seemed better
than Col des Mosses or Col de la Croix (which was like Roberto said).
______________
other thoughts:
* the Switz national bike routes are usually more interesting and have less
traffic than roads I would choose myself. But often not the fastest or
easiest way to get somewhere.

* saw lotsa bike rentals available in villages in the mountains, if don't
mind using some sort of a mountain bike.

* the Swiss post-bus routes go high up some of the passes, and some (many?)
of those post-buses I saw had vertical bike racks mounted on back.

* my preferences (which might be different from yours): (a) moderate
descents with wider curves, rather than straight steep down with occasional
tight hairpins; (b) moderate climbing steepness, since I've already got
enough super-steep challenge climbs around home; (c) snow in my mountain
views, or very dramatic rocks (like in the Dolomites), so I might have made
different judgments about some other passes, if I'd ridden over them in May
or June with more snow around.

* my performance secret: ultra-low gears and patience.

Look forward to getting corrections and more ideas.

Ken

Hi Ken,
a few comments.
- The Nufenen runs north to south, more than east to west.
- Police does allow cyclists on both the north and the south
(spectacular!) side of San Gottardo.
- I was surprised you enjoyed the long approach to Gran San Bernardo
from the north.
Nevertheless, the last few kilometers are well worth the ride. Myself
,I have always enjoyed the (upper part) of the south side from Aosta.
So, from my point of view the lower sections on either sides do not
have much value, really.

Your favorite loop?
I did it the very same way starting and ending in Meiringen, a few
years back with Mike Perry, from Washington DC. Just wonderful,
provided one duely avoids the Brunig Pass.

Cheers

Sergio
isa

Ken Roberts wrote:
I was glad to get to try out some of the high passes in Switzerland
suggested on this newsgroup in the last couple of months by Sergio and
Roberto, and the ever-helpful reports from Jobst Brandt.
I've put some photos up at
http://www.roberts-1.com/t/b06/ch/k

Well done! Great tours and lively pictures. Pity the weather
apparently was not at its best.

* Grimsel for lakes + dams

This one is in my next year's planning.

* Grosse Scheidegg - Brienzersee (clockwise thru Interlaken, Meiringen,
Grindelwald) -- To the great pass the loop adds nice lakeside views and some
pleasant quiet valley riding (and more vehicle traffic between Grindelwald +
Interlaken, another reason to prefer clockwise to get thru that faster). I
rode the south side of the Brienzersee lake following the national bike
route, which was quiet, but got me into some gravel and complicated turns --
not sure how it would work to ride around the north side of the Brienzersee.

Unfortunately many of the Swiss bike routes are unpaved and/or not very
direct. I usually avoid them, unless they clearly follow asphalted roads.

The ride north size of the Brienzersee is nice but not as much as
the one you took. Furthermore you must cross Interlaken which is
neither easy nor interesting. Too many turists.

Did you like the downhill to Grindelwald? I hate it.

In the last picture of the ride:

http://www.roberts-1.com/t/b06/ch/k/...ee_800x600.jpg

behind the peak you see low on center-right is the most interesting
open air museum I have visited: Ballenberg. Worth a stop.

* Col du Pillon had some nice mountain views and a pleasant descent on its
East side thru Gsteig. Of the passes I tried around there, it seemed better
than Col des Mosses or Col de la Croix (which was like Roberto said).

Col de la Croix is nicer but not easy to reach and it is rather steep.
The downhill to Gstaad is - on the other hand - one of the most
beautiful downhills I know (panorama, road, confort).

* the Switz national bike routes are usually more interesting and have less
traffic than roads I would choose myself. But often not the fastest or
easiest way to get somewhere.

Agree 1000%. You can still follow the same path riding on the main roads.

* saw lotsa bike rentals available in villages in the mountains, if don't
mind using some sort of a mountain bike.

The quality is usually very good. And sometimes they also have roads
or trekkings.

* the Swiss post-bus routes go high up some of the passes, and some (many?)
of those post-buses I saw had vertical bike racks mounted on back.

Those that don't have a rack usually accept them either in the luggage
compartment or inside the bus (unless it is really crowded). Better
phone beforehand and (optionally) book a place.

* my preferences (which might be different from yours): (a) moderate
descents with wider curves, rather than straight steep down with occasional
tight hairpins; (b) moderate climbing steepness, since I've already got
enough super-steep challenge climbs around home; (c) snow in my mountain
views, or very dramatic rocks (like in the Dolomites), so I might have made
different judgments about some other passes, if I'd ridden over them in May
or June with more snow around.

In this case, I may suggest for the next trip to try the Engadin, in
particular the Albula, Often and the Bernina (where you can see snow
all year long).

* my performance secret: ultra-low gears and patience.

You also have an unusual bike... Foldable? What is that rotor on the
left side of the back wheel? You can see it well he

http://www.roberts-1.com/t/b06/ch/k/..._800x570.jp g

Did you meet other riders? How did you interact with them? I find
often that this is the best part of biking in Switzerland...

Thanks for sharing your experience. Pity I was not around, otherwise
we could have crossed...

Ciao,
--
Roberto Divia` Love at first sight is one of the greatest
Dep:PH Bat:53 Mailbox:C02110 labour-saving devices the world has ever seen
Route de Meyrin 385 ---------------------------------------------
Case Postale Phone: +41-22-767-4994
CH-1211 Geneve 23 CERN Fax: +41-22-767-9585
Switzerland E-Mail:

wrote:
I did it the very same way starting and ending in Meiringen, a few
years back with Mike Perry, from Washington DC. Just wonderful,
provided one duely avoids the Brunig Pass.

You can do the Brunig pass taking the road that starts in Meiringen.
Little known, it joins the main road one Km before the pass. Completely
asphalted and in top conditions.

Another road exists. It starts behind Meiringen and goes up very steep,
a bit too much. And the climb is ~50% unpaved. It joins the main road
at the pass itself. I did it going down and did not enjoy it at all.

There is a third road that starts near Nessental and goes up to Reuti
and Hasliberg. It is marked on the maps as 90% paved and there is a
regular bus line that serves part of it. It should not be too tough.
This road also joins the Brunig at the pass, avoiding all troubles.

What is missing is a bypass for the climb from Lungern to the Brunig.
This is the worse pass I have ever done in terms of traffic. About the
same as the climb from Brienz to the Brunig that - I agree 100% with
Sergio - should be avoided.

Ciao,
--
Roberto Divia` Love at first sight is one of the greatest
Dep:PH Bat:53 Mailbox:C02110 labour-saving devices the world has ever seen
Route de Meyrin 385 ---------------------------------------------
Case Postale Phone: +41-22-767-4994
CH-1211 Geneve 23 CERN Fax: +41-22-767-9585
Switzerland E-Mail:

Roberto Divia wrote:

* Grimsel for lakes + dams
This one is in my next year's planning.

There is one thing I regret not doing, though I passed by the Grimsel
so many times.
Taking up th road, regulated by a traffic light, at the Pass in the
direction of the Finsteraarhorn. Do that for me, if I can't get there
before you.

Did you like the downhill to Grindelwald? I hate it.

Very tiring indeed, with such beauties distracting your attention.

* my preferences (which might be different from yours): (a) moderate
descents with wider curves, rather than straight steep down with occasional
tight hairpins; (b) moderate climbing steepness, since I've already got
enough super-steep challenge climbs around home; (c) snow in my mountain
views, or very dramatic rocks (like in the Dolomites), so I might have made
different judgments about some other passes, if I'd ridden over them in May
or June with more snow around.

Late May, I would say. Be advised that the passes of the upper Rhone
and Valtellina valleys are usually the ones with the heaviest snowfall.
Also beautiful to ride up when the road is still closed, up higher, and
so carries no through traffic. I like to do that every year, going as
far up as possible. No need to stamp postcards at the top!

In this case, I may suggest for the next trip to try the Engadin, in
particular the Albula, Often and the Bernina (where you can see snow
all year long).

Myself I am not at all fond of the Albula, nor of the Fluela for that
matter.
The Julier, from the north side, is a moloch; the Bernina from the
north a piece of birthday cake. Just to follow Jobst, you might try the
old Septimer Pass avoiding the Julier west of it and descending onto
Casaccia, in the beautiful Val Bregaglia.
On a personal note: avoid, please, simply avoid lodging in Livigno.

Did you meet other riders? How did you interact with them? I find
often that this is the best part of biking in Switzerland...

Just had one such pleasant experience this year upon descending onto
Martigny from Gran San Bernardo. It turned out that he was a ski
instructor from Sierre.
Nice chap, indeed.

Sergio
Pisa

wrote:
Roberto Divia wrote:
In this case, I may suggest for the next trip to try the Engadin, in
particular the Albula, Often and the Bernina (where you can see snow
all year long).

Sorry, I meant "Ofen", not "Often". The Ofenpass. Maybe a bit too
much traffic, otherwise very nice.

[...] the Bernina from the north a piece of birthday cake.

Nice view... I agree it's more challenging from the South (Tirano).
Also the train line is special, very special. And the top of the
Bernina, with marmottes, lakes and glaciers...

Ciao,
--
Roberto Divia` Love at first sight is one of the greatest
Dep:PH Bat:53 Mailbox:C02110 labour-saving devices the world has ever seen
Route de Meyrin 385 ---------------------------------------------
Case Postale Phone: +41-22-767-4994
CH-1211 Geneve 23 CERN Fax: +41-22-767-9585
Switzerland E-Mail:

Roberto Divia wrote
[ in response to] ... Swiss post-bus routes go high up some of the
passes,
Those that don't have a rack usually accept them either in the luggage
compartment or inside the bus

I mentioned it because using the Post-Bus could be a way to enjoy some of
the great high-mountain scenery for riders who are not super-athletes. When
I was climbing the SE side of Col d'Aravis I saw lots of people coming down
on bicycles, and lacking at some of them I had a strong feeling that not all
of them had first gotten up there using muscle power. Though I'd guess most
people with bicycles on the Post-Bus first ride around on some mountain-bike
trails up high, before enjoying a long descent on the road.

[in response to] ... saw lotsa bike rentals available in villages in the
mountains
The quality of rental bikes usually very good.

Good to hear, since one deterrent for North Americans enjoying the great
bicycling in Europe is how to get their bicycle over on an airline. I'll
guess that the average quality of bike rented in the mountains is better for
touring than what I've rented at some big-city train stations.

Did you meet other riders? How did you interact with them? I find
often that this is the best part of biking in Switzerland...

Not as many conversations as I would have wished on this trip.
Several reasons I think:
* One is just I'm so much slower than most other riders on the big climbs
that they it would be too much of a disruption of their own riding to do
more than say Hi as they pass. (Actually I'm fairly athletic, definitely
over 90th percentile among cyclists on flat terrain in the USA or Europe --
but "fairly athletic" comes out as 10th percentile in the selected
population of riders who attempt the big Switzerland climbs.)
* Another way to meet cyclists would be evenings at hostels or hotels, but I
normally save money by sleeping in my car.
* Also I'm still so new to exploring the big mountains that I'm trying to
pack too much riding into each day, so I'm feeling rushed to finish before
dark.
But any time someone was at close to my pace, I talked with them -- and
agree that those conversations are usually very memorable. On this trip, the
time with highest frequency of conversations was with mountain bikers
crossing Col de la Seigne (not in Switzerland).

You also have an unusual bike... Foldable?

My bicycle is a Bike Friday Project Q. What's special is that it can be
assembled as either a tandem or a single. All the parts fit into two normal
suitcases, and when I arrive I assemble it as a tandem for Sharon and me to
ride together on gentle-to-moderate terrain. Then when Sharon flies home I
re-assemble it as a single, and she takes the tandem-specific parts in one
of the suitcases.

What is that rotor on the left side of the back wheel?

That's an Arai drum brake, mostly as a third brake going down a long hill
with the weight of two people in tandem mode. But I'm also happy to use it
on steep descents in single mode, so I don't have to tire my hands squeezing
the levers for the rim-brakes.

Ken

Sergio wrote
- Police does allow cyclists on both the north and the south
(spectacular!) side of San Gottardo.

You mean you've ridden over San Gottardo / Gotthardpass without encountering
any of those cobblestone sections?
Maybe I would have found the south side more spectacular if I hadn't been
getting bumped around all the time. I put a photo of the cobbles and the
nice view down on Airolo on this page:
http://roberts-1.com/t/b06/ch/k/e
The joke is that when I reached the top, I didn't see any "no bicycling"
signs on the main highway for going down the north side, so I was eager to
try riding it. But the national bicycle route sign pointed the other way to
some nice asphalt. So I thought, I'll give the bicycle route another
chance -- so 300 meters down the hill it turned into cobbles again -- and
after 3km the national bike route put me on the main highway anyway.

I was surprised you enjoyed the long approach to Gran San Bernardo from
the north.

I did not (and would not) start from Martigny. Starting climbing from
Orsieres there were villages and cows and soon a snowy mountains. Perhaps I
have a special interest in the Grand Combin because I've traversed under its
south face twice on multi-day ski tours, and I've seen it from so many other
angles, and thought about skiing a route on its north side. I'm glad to hear
that climbing the south side is also nice.

from my point of view the lower sections on either sides do not have much
value, really.

That could be said of lots of big passes in the Alps. Which is why one of
the things I mention in my post was which sides of which passes have
something a little bit interesting lower down. For me it doesn't have to be
mountain views -- I like villages and farmhouses and cows and streams and
waterfalls -- sometimes while I'm doing a long climb, even a gas station is
more interesting than staring at 10000 more trees or another 3km of scubby
bushes. I thought climbing the north side of San Bernardo from Orsieres to
Bourg St Pierre was more interesting than the lower half of the west side of
Nufenen up from Ulrichen.

- The Nufenen runs north to south, more than east to west.

Perhaps we're talking about a different pass?
The Nufenenpass / Passo della Novena I was talking about goes from Ulrichen
in the Rhone valley to Airolo in the Valle Leventina. On my map, Airolo is
directly east from Ulrichen, and the river Ticino is east from the river
Rhone.

Ken

P.S. regarding North-South transport ... back when I used to consult in
Lugano, one of my local co-workers said that the sad thing of modern
Switzerland was the construction of the Gotthard tunnel, which eliminated
the mountain barrier that protected Ticino from that other culture. One
reason I was eager to ride San Gottardo was to experience that ancient
mountain barrier -- I guess with the sanpietri I got the full experience.

Roberto Divia wrote
Grosse Scheidegg ...
Did you like the downhill to Grindelwald?

I didn't like descending the top part of the north side of Grosse Scheidegg,
because it was steep and narrow -- but stopping every so often to enjoy the
great views took away any disappointment. Closer to Grindelwald I got wider
with nice pavement and sweeping curves and it was lots of fun for me. Below
Grindelwald, some sections toward Interlaken were too gentle, but I remember
some steeper sections I enjoyed.

the Switz national bike routes ...
You can still follow the same path riding on the main roads.

Sometimes I wish I had followed the main roads. Other times the signed
national bicycle route was really pretty and interesting and I was glad I
took it even though it took longer. I'd say make sure you have the _time_
free for the signed bike route to take you on a longer adventure. Also once
you follow the nice signs out there onto some forest road that's not on your
map, you're very dependent on continuing to find (and correctly interpret)
the signs to get you back out again.

Col de la Croix is nicer but not easy to reach and it is rather steep.

I did think the views of the Rhone valley lower down were rather nice, just
like you said a couple of months ago. I climbed from Ollon, I saw a sign
later which said it was a national hill-climb time trial, and there was a
box where you could punch a ticket to record your time. Maybe it would have
been more interesting to do it through Bex instead of Ollon -- I saw later
that my Kummeley + Frey national bicycle map of Switzerland shows it thru
Bex.

Pity I was not around, otherwise we could have crossed...

I only recently figured out how close CERN is to the Geneva airport.
Actually I'm more likely to arrive there in March - April - early May for
randonnee and cross-country skiing. I'd love to do some more bicycling at
that time of year, but bringing so many kinds of equipment feels like too
much. So instead I've been bringing my skates to do short road-tours, once
in Geneva, more often near Annecy and Chambery -- but if I could work out a
way to get out on a decent bike that would be great.

Ken

Sergio Servadio writes:

a few comments.

- The Nufenen runs north to south, more than east to west.

That depends on whether you consider the the pass as going from Airolo
to Ulrichen or just the pass from the Bedretto valley to the Rhone
valley which lie north and south from each other.

- Police does allow cyclists on both the north and the south
(spectacular!) side of San Gottardo.

That is true only for the new (Autobahn) route. The old road is open
to bicycles from Göschenen to Airolo and the new one from the summit
to the Fortezza.

- I was surprised you enjoyed the long approach to Gran San Bernardo
from the north.

And when you get to the top, the store window behind the summit sign
is full of stuffed toy St. Bernard dogs. I recall when the kept a
few real dogs up there.

Nevertheless, the last few kilometers are well worth the
ride. Myself ,I have always enjoyed the (upper part) of the south
side from Aosta. So, from my point of view the lower sections on
either sides do not have much value, really.

Your favorite loop?
I did it the very same way starting and ending in Meiringen, a few
years back with Mike Perry, from Washington DC. Just wonderful,
provided one duely avoids the Brunig Pass.

So what don't you like about the Brünig Pass? The short 13% section
on the south side isn't significant and other than that I find it has
lovely vistas.

Jobst Brandt