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  #21  
Old July 13th 19, 08:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,511
Default Electronic Shifting

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 1:34:51 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:56:43 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 2:59:31 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:43:02 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 2:54:54 PM UTC-4, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 18:09, Frank Krygowski wrote:


My concern is that unlike mechanical systems, electronics are a black box. I can
look at a conventional derailleur system and figure out what's wrong with it.
Usually I can fix it with very simple tools, even out on the road.


I normally do all my own bike stuff. However twice this decade I have
had to get shift levers replaced. They seem impossible to me to fix.

So I can't really see that electronic is that big a change from where we
are now.

Sounds like "we" are in different places now. I'm betting that you, like most
"sport" cyclists, are using brifters - STI or similar.

I'm not using brifters for exactly the same reason I'm skeptical of electronics.
Some of my bikes have friction shifters, some have index bar-end levers or
index levers elsewhere on the handlebars. I'm sure I can disassemble any of
those if necessary - but it will probably never be necessary. They are very
simple devices, with little to go wrong.

BTW, my oldest index shifters are on a couple different three speed bikes. I've
had those apart. I don't exactly remember, but I'm guessing there were maybe
three moving parts. Heck, I could fabricate replacements for those!

- Frank Krygowski

Lets see how often did my brifters (ergo and STI) fail on me in the last 25 years...hmm....never. In take my chance for the coming years.


Ah, same as my shifters, then!

No, I take that back. There was a problem with a three speed trigger shifter...

But I have had friends who had STI failures, who called me to come help get them
going. One was on a brand new bike, bought two days before a week long bike tour.
Another was a bike that had been in storage for maybe a year. A third was my
daughter's bike on our longest tour, that consistently missed shifts onto the
largest cog. I was once asked to help with a broken cable, too (inside the mechanism)
but I wasn't able to straighten that out before having to leave for home.

I know they work fine for most people, and I think they've gotten more reliable
over the decades. But your preference is almost always for more technology. Mine
is almost always for more simplicity and repairability. I doubt either of us
will change.

- Frank Krygowski


It is clear that we live in a different cycling universe and I have little hope that I get you out of the eighties of last the century. That is OK. What I am trying to say to other people was that reliability can't be the reason to deny themselves the ease of use of brifters and even electronic shifting. Fortunately 99.9% of the people figured that out by themselves.


I _very_ much doubt that 99.9% of bicyclists always use brifters or electronic shifting. In fact, I doubt that 99.9% of rec.bicycles.tech readers always use
brifters or electronic shifting.

There are many types of bicyclists and many types of bicyclists - AKA many
different cycling universes. That is way better than OK. Don't imagine your
personal riding style and equipment choices are the only legitimate ones, nor
the "best" ones.

- Frank Krygowski
Ads
  #22  
Old July 13th 19, 09:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Electronic Shifting

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 10:56:43 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 2:59:31 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:43:02 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 2:54:54 PM UTC-4, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 18:09, Frank Krygowski wrote:


My concern is that unlike mechanical systems, electronics are a black box. I can
look at a conventional derailleur system and figure out what's wrong with it.
Usually I can fix it with very simple tools, even out on the road..


I normally do all my own bike stuff. However twice this decade I have
had to get shift levers replaced. They seem impossible to me to fix..

So I can't really see that electronic is that big a change from where we
are now.

Sounds like "we" are in different places now. I'm betting that you, like most
"sport" cyclists, are using brifters - STI or similar.

I'm not using brifters for exactly the same reason I'm skeptical of electronics.
Some of my bikes have friction shifters, some have index bar-end levers or
index levers elsewhere on the handlebars. I'm sure I can disassemble any of
those if necessary - but it will probably never be necessary. They are very
simple devices, with little to go wrong.

BTW, my oldest index shifters are on a couple different three speed bikes. I've
had those apart. I don't exactly remember, but I'm guessing there were maybe
three moving parts. Heck, I could fabricate replacements for those!

- Frank Krygowski


Lets see how often did my brifters (ergo and STI) fail on me in the last 25 years...hmm....never. In take my chance for the coming years.


Ah, same as my shifters, then!

No, I take that back. There was a problem with a three speed trigger shifter...

But I have had friends who had STI failures, who called me to come help get them
going. One was on a brand new bike, bought two days before a week long bike tour.
Another was a bike that had been in storage for maybe a year. A third was my
daughter's bike on our longest tour, that consistently missed shifts onto the
largest cog. I was once asked to help with a broken cable, too (inside the mechanism)
but I wasn't able to straighten that out before having to leave for home.

I know they work fine for most people, and I think they've gotten more reliable
over the decades. But your preference is almost always for more technology. Mine
is almost always for more simplicity and repairability. I doubt either of us
will change.

- Frank Krygowski


I remember back in the day when downtube shifters were about the only game in town for 10-speeds or more gears. I also remember that those shifters would often miss a shift or auto-shift to a heavier gear when the washers in them wore out or if the fixing bolt came loose which many of them did.

Cheers
  #23  
Old July 13th 19, 09:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Electronic Shifting

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 3:53:19 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 1:34:51 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:56:43 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 2:59:31 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:43:02 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 2:54:54 PM UTC-4, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 18:09, Frank Krygowski wrote:


My concern is that unlike mechanical systems, electronics are a black box. I can
look at a conventional derailleur system and figure out what's wrong with it.
Usually I can fix it with very simple tools, even out on the road.


I normally do all my own bike stuff. However twice this decade I have
had to get shift levers replaced. They seem impossible to me to fix.

So I can't really see that electronic is that big a change from where we
are now.

Sounds like "we" are in different places now. I'm betting that you, like most
"sport" cyclists, are using brifters - STI or similar.

I'm not using brifters for exactly the same reason I'm skeptical of electronics.
Some of my bikes have friction shifters, some have index bar-end levers or
index levers elsewhere on the handlebars. I'm sure I can disassemble any of
those if necessary - but it will probably never be necessary. They are very
simple devices, with little to go wrong.

BTW, my oldest index shifters are on a couple different three speed bikes. I've
had those apart. I don't exactly remember, but I'm guessing there were maybe
three moving parts. Heck, I could fabricate replacements for those!

- Frank Krygowski

Lets see how often did my brifters (ergo and STI) fail on me in the last 25 years...hmm....never. In take my chance for the coming years.

Ah, same as my shifters, then!

No, I take that back. There was a problem with a three speed trigger shifter...

But I have had friends who had STI failures, who called me to come help get them
going. One was on a brand new bike, bought two days before a week long bike tour.
Another was a bike that had been in storage for maybe a year. A third was my
daughter's bike on our longest tour, that consistently missed shifts onto the
largest cog. I was once asked to help with a broken cable, too (inside the mechanism)
but I wasn't able to straighten that out before having to leave for home.

I know they work fine for most people, and I think they've gotten more reliable
over the decades. But your preference is almost always for more technology. Mine
is almost always for more simplicity and repairability. I doubt either of us
will change.

- Frank Krygowski


It is clear that we live in a different cycling universe and I have little hope that I get you out of the eighties of last the century. That is OK.. What I am trying to say to other people was that reliability can't be the reason to deny themselves the ease of use of brifters and even electronic shifting. Fortunately 99.9% of the people figured that out by themselves.


I _very_ much doubt that 99.9% of bicyclists always use brifters or electronic shifting. In fact, I doubt that 99.9% of rec.bicycles.tech readers always use
brifters or electronic shifting.

There are many types of bicyclists and many types of bicyclists - AKA many
different cycling universes. That is way better than OK. Don't imagine your
personal riding style and equipment choices are the only legitimate ones, nor
the "best" ones.

- Frank Krygowski


But Frank, a LOT of times that's exactly how you come across in your posts. ;) VBEG LOL

Cheers
  #24  
Old July 13th 19, 10:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 824
Default Electronic Shifting

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 9:53:19 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 1:34:51 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:56:43 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 2:59:31 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:43:02 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 2:54:54 PM UTC-4, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 18:09, Frank Krygowski wrote:


My concern is that unlike mechanical systems, electronics are a black box. I can
look at a conventional derailleur system and figure out what's wrong with it.
Usually I can fix it with very simple tools, even out on the road.


I normally do all my own bike stuff. However twice this decade I have
had to get shift levers replaced. They seem impossible to me to fix.

So I can't really see that electronic is that big a change from where we
are now.

Sounds like "we" are in different places now. I'm betting that you, like most
"sport" cyclists, are using brifters - STI or similar.

I'm not using brifters for exactly the same reason I'm skeptical of electronics.
Some of my bikes have friction shifters, some have index bar-end levers or
index levers elsewhere on the handlebars. I'm sure I can disassemble any of
those if necessary - but it will probably never be necessary. They are very
simple devices, with little to go wrong.

BTW, my oldest index shifters are on a couple different three speed bikes. I've
had those apart. I don't exactly remember, but I'm guessing there were maybe
three moving parts. Heck, I could fabricate replacements for those!

- Frank Krygowski

Lets see how often did my brifters (ergo and STI) fail on me in the last 25 years...hmm....never. In take my chance for the coming years.

Ah, same as my shifters, then!

No, I take that back. There was a problem with a three speed trigger shifter...

But I have had friends who had STI failures, who called me to come help get them
going. One was on a brand new bike, bought two days before a week long bike tour.
Another was a bike that had been in storage for maybe a year. A third was my
daughter's bike on our longest tour, that consistently missed shifts onto the
largest cog. I was once asked to help with a broken cable, too (inside the mechanism)
but I wasn't able to straighten that out before having to leave for home.

I know they work fine for most people, and I think they've gotten more reliable
over the decades. But your preference is almost always for more technology. Mine
is almost always for more simplicity and repairability. I doubt either of us
will change.

- Frank Krygowski


It is clear that we live in a different cycling universe and I have little hope that I get you out of the eighties of last the century. That is OK.. What I am trying to say to other people was that reliability can't be the reason to deny themselves the ease of use of brifters and even electronic shifting. Fortunately 99.9% of the people figured that out by themselves.


I _very_ much doubt that 99.9% of bicyclists always use brifters or electronic shifting.


With brifters and/or electronic shifting we are talking about road bikes. Well in that case on this side of the pond more than 99.9% uses them.

In fact, I doubt that 99.9% of rec.bicycles.tech readers always use
brifters or electronic shifting.


Again I am talking about road bikes but I have to admit that the people here would make a very odd subset of the road bike users on this side of the pond. Hell most of the utility bikes users here can shift without taken their hands from the brake position what is the essence of brifters.

There are many types of bicyclists and many types of bicyclists - AKA many
different cycling universes. That is way better than OK. Don't imagine your
personal riding style and equipment choices are the only legitimate ones, nor
the "best" ones.


Never said there aren't more than one cycling universes and I never said mine is the only or the best one. I only share my experiences with new/modern (training)equipment. Unlike you I prepared to 'gamble' once in a while with the chance to make a mistake and waste some money. My loss and I blame nobody. By doing that I have experience with all kinds of frame materials (steel, aluminum, titanium, CF). I have experience with brifters; Shimano and Campagnolo for many years. I have experience with an aero bike and wheels. Use training aids like heart rate monitor and power meters. I have experience with electronic shifting for 5 years now. Heck I ride a utility bike my whole life. When these subjects come around I now what I'm talking about and not only from heresay. If Sturmey Archer 3 speed hubs come around I shut up and leave it to the people who still uses them and I know nothing about touring and touring bikes. For the record I gave up on ATB's because of the ridiculous technical developments, GoreTex clothing is bull**** and 1x11/12 drivetrains is beyond me. Have a nice day.

Lou

  #25  
Old July 13th 19, 10:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 824
Default Electronic Shifting

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 9:47:23 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 11:03:25 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 10:50:47 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 5:41:42 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 10, 2019 at 10:19:22 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
This stuff is really expensive. But is it reliable? Looking in Craigslist shows a LOT of electronic groups for sale. Though they sure aren't going cheap.

The major question is: what need did they fulfill? Is there any cable failures at the pro-level? Any sticking gears or jumping gears that are attributable to the cables?

Well, on 11 speeds the rear derailleurs do have much better indexing. While the cable shifted groups index in the brifters, the electronic groups are indexed inside of the rear and front derailleurs. This makes it certainly more immediately available to the position.

But this would certainly be something that would work just as well with cable actuation and it would make the Brifters a whole hell of a lot cheaper though they would add the problem that like the electronic shifting you have to shift one gear at a time and with the cable units you can shift multiple gears at once with DuraAce or Record though not with SRAM.

With cables it would take two cables to operate in two directions or perhaps one cable pulled on both directions - sort of in a circle.

The advantage would be that you wouldn't have to plug the things in and as is usual, eventually this sort of stuff ends up on touring bikes that do not have the capability of charging anything.

My friend downloads European coverage off of the web and he says that he has watch many (not some) failures of these electronic groups. The one that I saw in person failed on the very first ride. He didn't tell me what he did but I haven't seen any failures since.

But even watching NBC Sports which pans away from failures, I watched two very obvious electronic shifting failures today alone. And on the other stages I have wondered why they were replacing bikes rather than a wheel without even looking at a flat.

I am sure that electronic shifting will get more reliable. But again - is there any advantage to it? There can't be more than 20 grams weight advantage to the electronic stuff.

I think the advantage of electronic shifting is difficult to quantify. Using it for 4 years on my crossbike and 2 years on one of my road bikes my opinion is:
- it is more convenient,
- it shifts quicker because of less travel of the switch/lever,
- it is more convenient in case of internal cable routing. Install it once and never worry about it afterwards,
- once adjusted never touch it again,
- FD shifts under load,
- the FD auto adjusts depending on the RD position,
- possibility of synchronized shifting.

Not for everyone this is reason enough to switch to electronic shifting. Choice is good like Andrew always says, but electronic shifting proved to be extremely reliable and battery life is no issue. Personally I charge my battery once per season.

Lou

The rear derailleur in an electronic shifting bike has the ratcheting mechanism in the derailleur. This is both a positive and a negative. It would seem to me that high quality stainless cables designed in a circular pattern would work as well if not better than an electronic design and would essentially last forever with internal routing.


Possible. The shifter of the Rohloff hub has a circular cable.

As you probably saw in Stage 7, as one rider crossed the line he attempted to shift the front derailleur under load and it got caught in some intermedia position and he had to mess with it a second to get it into some gear so that he could cross the line under his own power. Looked to me like he lost a couple of seconds there.


Yes that looked very strange. I don't know what he was doing but as far as I know he dropped his chain and was trying to get it on the chainwheel again, but because it was so steep there and he had almost no speed it took a whil. He lost no time though because he front wheel was already past the finish line.


I don't think that battery life is really a problem but it sure as hell isn't "2-3 years". And you do have to admit that it is a source for a possible failure more likely than a cable.


2-3 years seems a long time to me also. I'm not afraid of a possible failure and don't suffer from 'black box' syndrome. If I rent a bike when I am on cycling holiday and cannot bring my own bike I choose one with Di2 if that is possible. I think Di2 is about convenience. Not a game changer but nice.


The auto-adjusting feature is a new one on me and that sounds clever.


What I meant was auto trimming. One feature I do use is the adjustment while riding. I have two wheel I use and they require a different adjustment. I get the system in adjustment mode by pressing a button while riding. I see my current adjustment on the display of my Garmin and I know that one wheel need an adjustment of +2 and the other -1. Like I said convenience.

Lou


The entire bike has to cross the line to count as a finish.


Oh I didn't know that . Strange that it is different from a sprint finish.

He didn't drop the chain because shifting it a couple of times allowed him to pedal across the line.


Wel I couldn't tell but there was a discussion in a TV program about this incident on the Belgian network and the Belgians breath cycling.

The front wheel breaking the line is used to measure the sprinters.


Like I said odd...


The rules are a bit weird at times. He COULD have dismounted and walked across the line and that would have counted as finishing under his own power..


That was my first thought also.

Lou
  #26  
Old July 13th 19, 10:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Electronic Shifting

On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 10:34:49 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:56:43 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 2:59:31 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:43:02 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 2:54:54 PM UTC-4, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 18:09, Frank Krygowski wrote:


My concern is that unlike mechanical systems, electronics are a black box. I can
look at a conventional derailleur system and figure out what's wrong with it.
Usually I can fix it with very simple tools, even out on the road.


I normally do all my own bike stuff. However twice this decade I have
had to get shift levers replaced. They seem impossible to me to fix.

So I can't really see that electronic is that big a change from where we
are now.

Sounds like "we" are in different places now. I'm betting that you, like most
"sport" cyclists, are using brifters - STI or similar.

I'm not using brifters for exactly the same reason I'm skeptical of electronics.
Some of my bikes have friction shifters, some have index bar-end levers or
index levers elsewhere on the handlebars. I'm sure I can disassemble any of
those if necessary - but it will probably never be necessary. They are very
simple devices, with little to go wrong.

BTW, my oldest index shifters are on a couple different three speed bikes. I've
had those apart. I don't exactly remember, but I'm guessing there were maybe
three moving parts. Heck, I could fabricate replacements for those!

- Frank Krygowski

Lets see how often did my brifters (ergo and STI) fail on me in the last 25 years...hmm....never. In take my chance for the coming years.


Ah, same as my shifters, then!

No, I take that back. There was a problem with a three speed trigger shifter...

But I have had friends who had STI failures, who called me to come help get them
going. One was on a brand new bike, bought two days before a week long bike tour.
Another was a bike that had been in storage for maybe a year. A third was my
daughter's bike on our longest tour, that consistently missed shifts onto the
largest cog. I was once asked to help with a broken cable, too (inside the mechanism)
but I wasn't able to straighten that out before having to leave for home.

I know they work fine for most people, and I think they've gotten more reliable
over the decades. But your preference is almost always for more technology. Mine
is almost always for more simplicity and repairability. I doubt either of us
will change.

- Frank Krygowski


It is clear that we live in a different cycling universe and I have little hope that I get you out of the eighties of last the century. That is OK. What I am trying to say to other people was that reliability can't be the reason to deny themselves the ease of use of brifters and even electronic shifting. Fortunately 99.9% of the people figured that out by themselves.

Lou


My experience, which only goes back, maybe 10 or so, years, is that
brifters really benefit two classes of people. Firstly people that
race bicycles and secondly those that aren't bright enough to shift
down when they come to a stop light or sign.

It can be a real bother when the light turns green and everyone else
jams the throttle to the floor and roars off and there you are trying
to get up to speed in your highest gear. A death grip on the
handlebars and straining as hard as you can, maybe even standing up.

It is a real chore trying to shift down tube friction shifters while
standing but with brifters it is just click, click, click.

But of course if one's primary desire is simply to be seen as "modern
and up to date" than certainly brifters, or perhaps even more
"modern", an electric shifter is just the thing.

And, if relaxing on the bike is desirable than an "e-bike" would be
best, what with not having to pedal at all.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #27  
Old July 13th 19, 11:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Electronic Shifting

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 5:07:51 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 9:53:19 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 1:34:51 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:56:43 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 2:59:31 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:43:02 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 2:54:54 PM UTC-4, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 18:09, Frank Krygowski wrote:


My concern is that unlike mechanical systems, electronics are a black box. I can
look at a conventional derailleur system and figure out what's wrong with it.
Usually I can fix it with very simple tools, even out on the road.


I normally do all my own bike stuff. However twice this decade I have
had to get shift levers replaced. They seem impossible to me to fix.

So I can't really see that electronic is that big a change from where we
are now.

Sounds like "we" are in different places now. I'm betting that you, like most
"sport" cyclists, are using brifters - STI or similar.

I'm not using brifters for exactly the same reason I'm skeptical of electronics.
Some of my bikes have friction shifters, some have index bar-end levers or
index levers elsewhere on the handlebars. I'm sure I can disassemble any of
those if necessary - but it will probably never be necessary. They are very
simple devices, with little to go wrong.

BTW, my oldest index shifters are on a couple different three speed bikes. I've
had those apart. I don't exactly remember, but I'm guessing there were maybe
three moving parts. Heck, I could fabricate replacements for those!

- Frank Krygowski

Lets see how often did my brifters (ergo and STI) fail on me in the last 25 years...hmm....never. In take my chance for the coming years.

Ah, same as my shifters, then!

No, I take that back. There was a problem with a three speed trigger shifter...

But I have had friends who had STI failures, who called me to come help get them
going. One was on a brand new bike, bought two days before a week long bike tour.
Another was a bike that had been in storage for maybe a year. A third was my
daughter's bike on our longest tour, that consistently missed shifts onto the
largest cog. I was once asked to help with a broken cable, too (inside the mechanism)
but I wasn't able to straighten that out before having to leave for home.

I know they work fine for most people, and I think they've gotten more reliable
over the decades. But your preference is almost always for more technology. Mine
is almost always for more simplicity and repairability. I doubt either of us
will change.

- Frank Krygowski

It is clear that we live in a different cycling universe and I have little hope that I get you out of the eighties of last the century. That is OK. What I am trying to say to other people was that reliability can't be the reason to deny themselves the ease of use of brifters and even electronic shifting. Fortunately 99.9% of the people figured that out by themselves.


I _very_ much doubt that 99.9% of bicyclists always use brifters or electronic shifting.


With brifters and/or electronic shifting we are talking about road bikes. Well in that case on this side of the pond more than 99.9% uses them.

In fact, I doubt that 99.9% of rec.bicycles.tech readers always use
brifters or electronic shifting.


Again I am talking about road bikes but I have to admit that the people here would make a very odd subset of the road bike users on this side of the pond. Hell most of the utility bikes users here can shift without taken their hands from the brake position what is the essence of brifters.

There are many types of bicyclists and many types of bicyclists - AKA many
different cycling universes. That is way better than OK. Don't imagine your
personal riding style and equipment choices are the only legitimate ones, nor
the "best" ones.


Never said there aren't more than one cycling universes and I never said mine is the only or the best one. I only share my experiences with new/modern (training)equipment. Unlike you I prepared to 'gamble' once in a while with the chance to make a mistake and waste some money. My loss and I blame nobody. By doing that I have experience with all kinds of frame materials (steel, aluminum, titanium, CF). I have experience with brifters; Shimano and Campagnolo for many years. I have experience with an aero bike and wheels.. Use training aids like heart rate monitor and power meters. I have experience with electronic shifting for 5 years now. Heck I ride a utility bike my whole life. When these subjects come around I now what I'm talking about and not only from heresay. If Sturmey Archer 3 speed hubs come around I shut up and leave it to the people who still uses them and I know nothing about touring and touring bikes. For the record I gave up on ATB's because of the ridiculous technical developments, GoreTex clothing is bull**** and 1x11/12 drivetrains is beyond me. Have a nice day.

Lou


On two of my bikes I have Campagnolo Mirage 9-Speed Ergos circa 2001 and have never had a problem with them. They are completely rebuildable and can be converted to 8-speed or 10-speed with a rebuild kit. I also have a pair of Shimano Dura Ace 9-Speed Brifters that someone gave to me because the right one doesn't work any more. Flushing it with WD-40 didn't help either.

The thing is that back in the day of downtube shifters they too had problems with either a worn washer/spring or loosening fixing bolt and both of those problems would result in unwanted shifts to a heavier gear often when climbing a hill.

Cheers
  #28  
Old July 13th 19, 11:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Electronic Shifting

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 5:49:37 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 10:34:49 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:56:43 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 2:59:31 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:43:02 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 2:54:54 PM UTC-4, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 18:09, Frank Krygowski wrote:


My concern is that unlike mechanical systems, electronics are a black box. I can
look at a conventional derailleur system and figure out what's wrong with it.
Usually I can fix it with very simple tools, even out on the road.


I normally do all my own bike stuff. However twice this decade I have
had to get shift levers replaced. They seem impossible to me to fix.

So I can't really see that electronic is that big a change from where we
are now.

Sounds like "we" are in different places now. I'm betting that you, like most
"sport" cyclists, are using brifters - STI or similar.

I'm not using brifters for exactly the same reason I'm skeptical of electronics.
Some of my bikes have friction shifters, some have index bar-end levers or
index levers elsewhere on the handlebars. I'm sure I can disassemble any of
those if necessary - but it will probably never be necessary. They are very
simple devices, with little to go wrong.

BTW, my oldest index shifters are on a couple different three speed bikes. I've
had those apart. I don't exactly remember, but I'm guessing there were maybe
three moving parts. Heck, I could fabricate replacements for those!

- Frank Krygowski

Lets see how often did my brifters (ergo and STI) fail on me in the last 25 years...hmm....never. In take my chance for the coming years.

Ah, same as my shifters, then!

No, I take that back. There was a problem with a three speed trigger shifter...

But I have had friends who had STI failures, who called me to come help get them
going. One was on a brand new bike, bought two days before a week long bike tour.
Another was a bike that had been in storage for maybe a year. A third was my
daughter's bike on our longest tour, that consistently missed shifts onto the
largest cog. I was once asked to help with a broken cable, too (inside the mechanism)
but I wasn't able to straighten that out before having to leave for home.

I know they work fine for most people, and I think they've gotten more reliable
over the decades. But your preference is almost always for more technology. Mine
is almost always for more simplicity and repairability. I doubt either of us
will change.

- Frank Krygowski


It is clear that we live in a different cycling universe and I have little hope that I get you out of the eighties of last the century. That is OK. What I am trying to say to other people was that reliability can't be the reason to deny themselves the ease of use of brifters and even electronic shifting. Fortunately 99.9% of the people figured that out by themselves.

Lou


My experience, which only goes back, maybe 10 or so, years, is that
brifters really benefit two classes of people. Firstly people that
race bicycles and secondly those that aren't bright enough to shift
down when they come to a stop light or sign.

It can be a real bother when the light turns green and everyone else
jams the throttle to the floor and roars off and there you are trying
to get up to speed in your highest gear. A death grip on the
handlebars and straining as hard as you can, maybe even standing up.

It is a real chore trying to shift down tube friction shifters while
standing but with brifters it is just click, click, click.

But of course if one's primary desire is simply to be seen as "modern
and up to date" than certainly brifters, or perhaps even more
"modern", an electric shifter is just the thing.

And, if relaxing on the bike is desirable than an "e-bike" would be
best, what with not having to pedal at all.
--
cheers,

John B.


I REALLY like my 2001 Era Campagnolo 9-Speed rgo shifters on my touring bike. When the bike is loaded there's no need to move my hands from the handlebar or even from the brake lever in orser to shift either the front or the read derailleur. This can be a really blessing when honking up a hill.

Other bicyclists may feel differently as their needs/wants may be different from mine.

Cheers
  #29  
Old July 14th 19, 12:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,546
Default Electronic Shifting

wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 9:53:19 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 1:34:51 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:56:43 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 2:59:31 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:43:02 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 2:54:54 PM UTC-4, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 18:09, Frank Krygowski wrote:


My concern is that unlike mechanical systems, electronics are a black box. I can
look at a conventional derailleur system and figure out what's wrong with it.
Usually I can fix it with very simple tools, even out on the road.


I normally do all my own bike stuff. However twice this decade I have
had to get shift levers replaced. They seem impossible to me to fix.

So I can't really see that electronic is that big a change from where we
are now.

Sounds like "we" are in different places now. I'm betting that you, like most
"sport" cyclists, are using brifters - STI or similar.

I'm not using brifters for exactly the same reason I'm skeptical of electronics.
Some of my bikes have friction shifters, some have index bar-end levers or
index levers elsewhere on the handlebars. I'm sure I can disassemble any of
those if necessary - but it will probably never be necessary. They are very
simple devices, with little to go wrong.

BTW, my oldest index shifters are on a couple different three speed bikes. I've
had those apart. I don't exactly remember, but I'm guessing there were maybe
three moving parts. Heck, I could fabricate replacements for those!

- Frank Krygowski

Lets see how often did my brifters (ergo and STI) fail on me in the last 25
years...hmm....never. In take my chance for the coming years.

Ah, same as my shifters, then!

No, I take that back. There was a problem with a three speed trigger shifter...

But I have had friends who had STI failures, who called me to come help get them
going. One was on a brand new bike, bought two days before a week long bike tour.
Another was a bike that had been in storage for maybe a year. A third was my
daughter's bike on our longest tour, that consistently missed shifts onto the
largest cog. I was once asked to help with a broken cable, too (inside the mechanism)
but I wasn't able to straighten that out before having to leave for home.

I know they work fine for most people, and I think they've gotten more reliable
over the decades. But your preference is almost always for more technology. Mine
is almost always for more simplicity and repairability. I doubt either of us
will change.

- Frank Krygowski

It is clear that we live in a different cycling universe and I have
little hope that I get you out of the eighties of last the century.
That is OK. What I am trying to say to other people was that
reliability can't be the reason to deny themselves the ease of use of
brifters and even electronic shifting. Fortunately 99.9% of the people
figured that out by themselves.


I _very_ much doubt that 99.9% of bicyclists always use brifters or electronic shifting.


With brifters and/or electronic shifting we are talking about road bikes.
Well in that case on this side of the pond more than 99.9% uses them.



I’d say it’s the same here for road bikesas far as brifters go.
Electronic shifting less so at this point but it’s becoming the norm.

In fact, I doubt that 99.9% of rec.bicycles.tech readers always use
brifters or electronic shifting.


Again I am talking about road bikes but I have to admit that the people
here would make a very odd subset of the road bike users on this side of
the pond. Hell most of the utility bikes users here can shift without
taken their hands from the brake position what is the essence of brifters.


I don’t see anything different from your description of road bikes than
what I see here.

There are many types of bicyclists and many types of bicyclists - AKA many
different cycling universes. That is way better than OK. Don't imagine your
personal riding style and equipment choices are the only legitimate ones, nor
the "best" ones.


Never said there aren't more than one cycling universes and I never said
mine is the only or the best one. I only share my experiences with
new/modern (training)equipment. Unlike you I prepared to 'gamble' once in
a while with the chance to make a mistake and waste some money. My loss
and I blame nobody. By doing that I have experience with all kinds of
frame materials (steel, aluminum, titanium, CF). I have experience with
brifters; Shimano and Campagnolo for many years. I have experience with
an aero bike and wheels. Use training aids like heart rate monitor and
power meters. I have experience with electronic shifting for 5 years now.
Heck I ride a utility bike my whole life. When these subjects come around
I now what I'm talking about and not only from heresay. If Sturmey Archer
3 speed hubs come around I shut up and leave it to the people who still
uses them and I know nothing about touring and touring bikes. For the
record I gave up on ATB's because of the ridiculous technical
developments, GoreTex clothing is bull**** and 1x11/12 drivetrains is
beyond me. Have a nice day.

Lou





--
duane
  #30  
Old July 14th 19, 12:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,546
Default Electronic Shifting

John B. wrote:
On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 10:34:49 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:56:43 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 2:59:31 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 4:43:02 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 2:54:54 PM UTC-4, Tom Evans wrote:
On 12/07/2019 18:09, Frank Krygowski wrote:


My concern is that unlike mechanical systems, electronics are a black box. I can
look at a conventional derailleur system and figure out what's wrong with it.
Usually I can fix it with very simple tools, even out on the road.


I normally do all my own bike stuff. However twice this decade I have
had to get shift levers replaced. They seem impossible to me to fix.

So I can't really see that electronic is that big a change from where we
are now.

Sounds like "we" are in different places now. I'm betting that you, like most
"sport" cyclists, are using brifters - STI or similar.

I'm not using brifters for exactly the same reason I'm skeptical of electronics.
Some of my bikes have friction shifters, some have index bar-end levers or
index levers elsewhere on the handlebars. I'm sure I can disassemble any of
those if necessary - but it will probably never be necessary. They are very
simple devices, with little to go wrong.

BTW, my oldest index shifters are on a couple different three speed bikes. I've
had those apart. I don't exactly remember, but I'm guessing there were maybe
three moving parts. Heck, I could fabricate replacements for those!

- Frank Krygowski

Lets see how often did my brifters (ergo and STI) fail on me in the last 25
years...hmm....never. In take my chance for the coming years.

Ah, same as my shifters, then!

No, I take that back. There was a problem with a three speed trigger shifter...

But I have had friends who had STI failures, who called me to come help get them
going. One was on a brand new bike, bought two days before a week long bike tour.
Another was a bike that had been in storage for maybe a year. A third was my
daughter's bike on our longest tour, that consistently missed shifts onto the
largest cog. I was once asked to help with a broken cable, too (inside the mechanism)
but I wasn't able to straighten that out before having to leave for home.

I know they work fine for most people, and I think they've gotten more reliable
over the decades. But your preference is almost always for more technology. Mine
is almost always for more simplicity and repairability. I doubt either of us
will change.

- Frank Krygowski


It is clear that we live in a different cycling universe and I have
little hope that I get you out of the eighties of last the century. That
is OK. What I am trying to say to other people was that reliability
can't be the reason to deny themselves the ease of use of brifters and
even electronic shifting. Fortunately 99.9% of the people figured that out by themselves.

Lou


My experience, which only goes back, maybe 10 or so, years, is that
brifters really benefit two classes of people. Firstly people that
race bicycles and secondly those that aren't bright enough to shift
down when they come to a stop light or sign.

It can be a real bother when the light turns green and everyone else
jams the throttle to the floor and roars off and there you are trying
to get up to speed in your highest gear. A death grip on the
handlebars and straining as hard as you can, maybe even standing up.

It is a real chore trying to shift down tube friction shifters while
standing but with brifters it is just click, click, click.

But of course if one's primary desire is simply to be seen as "modern
and up to date" than certainly brifters, or perhaps even more
"modern", an electric shifter is just the thing.

And, if relaxing on the bike is desirable than an "e-bike" would be
best, what with not having to pedal at all.
--
cheers,

John B.



Your experience seems limited.

--
duane
 




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