Wheel building questions

Wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:05:58 +1000, big Pete
wrote:


Wrote:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:41:14 +1000, big Pete
wrote:


David L. Johnson Wrote:

You probably have them already, but if not I recommend butted
spokes.
They make a more reliable wheel.


I am a big guy (245 pounds last time I checked) will butted spokes
make
that big of a strength difference in the wheel? I did not buy the
rim
and spokes yet. I am thinking of a Sun double walled rim with
eyelets
that I can get for a good price. And the spokes are 14 gauge
stainless
steal (non butted) as stated in the my first post. I will Also try
to
make a dish stick. Looks like I am able to make it from the
suggestions
you guys have given me.

Thank you all

Pete

Dear Pete,

Both thick 14 gauge spokes and thin butted spokes with 14
gauge ends and a 15 gauge middle are more than strong enough
to bear the loads--they break at the ends, not in the
middle.

Double-butted spokes keep the ends thick to try to reduce
such breaks.

Their advantage is that, being thinner for most of their
length, they stretch more and therefore are less likely to
lose all tension (a bad thing) as they roll under the hub.

When the rim flattens ever so slightly against the pavement,
the spoke above it loses tension. A thick straight spoke
didn't stretch as far as a thin-center-section spoke, so the
thick spoke loses all tension and rattles, going out of true
and breaking more often and while the thin spoke can
contract that much and still have tension, which makes it
likely to last longer.

Think of them as rubber bands at the same tension, neither
of which is going to snap in the middle, but neither of
which we want to go slack. The thinner rubber band enjoys a
greater range of motion.

Carl Fogel

Dear Carl,

You are going to have to enlighten me a bit more. I think I agree
with
your analogy. OK so the thinner band has a better range of motion.
But
that would imply that they will ware out faster because of the
bigger
range of motion they are going though.

Dear Pete,

You raise a good point, but the long thinner middle section
of spokes doing the stretching simply doesn't wear out.

That is, spokes don't break in the middle. They fatigue,
crack, and fail at the elbow about nine times out of ten.
The tenth spoke one breaks at the nipple. That's why the
spokes are left thick (double-butted) at each end.

Even a thin mid-section stainless steel spoke is so strong
in tension that it isn't going to fail due to the normal
stress cycle of losing and regaining tension as it rolls
under the axle.

As others have suggested in this thread, this is roughly
what Jobst Brandt points out in "The Bicycle Wheel" when he
recommends double-butted spokes. Paradoxically, a thinner
mid-section spoke produces a more reliable wheel, not
because it is stronger than a thicker spoke (it isn't), but
because it is more than strong enough and its increased
elasticity lets it function better at what spokes need to
do, which is to maintain tension throughout the load range
without going slack.

The metallurgical side of this is that ferrous metals
(steels) have the charming characteristic of being able to
cycle indefinitely if the stress is low enough--they just
won't fatigue and break. (The elbows and nipples break
because stress is concentrated there and encouraged by
various details like the bending, the threading, and so
forth.) So the engineers can design a steel structure to
last forever in terms of stress cycles if the stress is kept
low enough.

Non-ferrous metals like aluminum, titanium, and magnesium do
not share this ruggedness. Given enough stress cycles, they
fatigue, no matter how low the stress is. The engineers have
to design non-ferrous structures to reduce the amount of
stress in each cycle, reduce the cycles, or both--and still
they can calculate when non-ferrous things should bust.

Some theory holds that steels eventually do fatigue even at
low stress cycling, but so much later that it's indefinite
for practical purposes. But no theory that I know of
predicts that a double-butted spoke will wear out in the
middle--it will break at the elbow or nipple, but not as
soon as a straight, thick spoke that is more prone to losing
all tension if it rolls under a heavily loaded axle.

For heavier loads, the usual solution is more spokes, not
thicker spokes--36 spokes might increase to 48 spokes for
many tandems and for truly heavy riders like Chalo Colina,
who has about 135 pounds on lightweights like you and 185
pounds on delicate creatures like me.

Carl Fogel


Dear Carl,

Thank you for the enlighten. I will look into double-butted spokes. I
have not yet had too many problems with 36 spokes on a wheel ... The
only spokes that brake on me are the ones from the wheel I got from the
garbage (this wheel is on my pos commuter). I am also looking for the
book you guys mentioned to me, right now though my library system. Is
this book the "wheel builders bible"? I have never had a wheel with
double-butted spokes does it make a difference in feel?

Pete


--
big Pete

In article ,
says...

I am also looking for the
book you guys mentioned to me, right now though my library system. Is
this book the "wheel builders bible"?

No.

I have never had a wheel with
double-butted spokes does it make a difference in feel?

No.
------------
Alex

In article ,
says...

I am also looking for the
book you guys mentioned to me, right now though my library system. Is
this book the "wheel builders bible"?

No.

I have never had a wheel with
double-butted spokes does it make a difference in feel?

No.
------------
Alex

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 23:53:04 +1000, big Pete
wrote:


Wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:05:58 +1000, big Pete
wrote:


Wrote:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:41:14 +1000, big Pete
wrote:


David L. Johnson Wrote:

You probably have them already, but if not I recommend butted
spokes.
They make a more reliable wheel.


I am a big guy (245 pounds last time I checked) will butted spokes
make
that big of a strength difference in the wheel? I did not buy the
rim
and spokes yet. I am thinking of a Sun double walled rim with
eyelets
that I can get for a good price. And the spokes are 14 gauge
stainless
steal (non butted) as stated in the my first post. I will Also try
to
make a dish stick. Looks like I am able to make it from the
suggestions
you guys have given me.

Thank you all

Pete

Dear Pete,

Both thick 14 gauge spokes and thin butted spokes with 14
gauge ends and a 15 gauge middle are more than strong enough
to bear the loads--they break at the ends, not in the
middle.

Double-butted spokes keep the ends thick to try to reduce
such breaks.

Their advantage is that, being thinner for most of their
length, they stretch more and therefore are less likely to
lose all tension (a bad thing) as they roll under the hub.

When the rim flattens ever so slightly against the pavement,
the spoke above it loses tension. A thick straight spoke
didn't stretch as far as a thin-center-section spoke, so the
thick spoke loses all tension and rattles, going out of true
and breaking more often and while the thin spoke can
contract that much and still have tension, which makes it
likely to last longer.

Think of them as rubber bands at the same tension, neither
of which is going to snap in the middle, but neither of
which we want to go slack. The thinner rubber band enjoys a
greater range of motion.

Carl Fogel

Dear Carl,

You are going to have to enlighten me a bit more. I think I agree
with
your analogy. OK so the thinner band has a better range of motion.
But
that would imply that they will ware out faster because of the
bigger
range of motion they are going though.

Dear Pete,

You raise a good point, but the long thinner middle section
of spokes doing the stretching simply doesn't wear out.

That is, spokes don't break in the middle. They fatigue,
crack, and fail at the elbow about nine times out of ten.
The tenth spoke one breaks at the nipple. That's why the
spokes are left thick (double-butted) at each end.

Even a thin mid-section stainless steel spoke is so strong
in tension that it isn't going to fail due to the normal
stress cycle of losing and regaining tension as it rolls
under the axle.

As others have suggested in this thread, this is roughly
what Jobst Brandt points out in "The Bicycle Wheel" when he
recommends double-butted spokes. Paradoxically, a thinner
mid-section spoke produces a more reliable wheel, not
because it is stronger than a thicker spoke (it isn't), but
because it is more than strong enough and its increased
elasticity lets it function better at what spokes need to
do, which is to maintain tension throughout the load range
without going slack.

The metallurgical side of this is that ferrous metals
(steels) have the charming characteristic of being able to
cycle indefinitely if the stress is low enough--they just
won't fatigue and break. (The elbows and nipples break
because stress is concentrated there and encouraged by
various details like the bending, the threading, and so
forth.) So the engineers can design a steel structure to
last forever in terms of stress cycles if the stress is kept
low enough.

Non-ferrous metals like aluminum, titanium, and magnesium do
not share this ruggedness. Given enough stress cycles, they
fatigue, no matter how low the stress is. The engineers have
to design non-ferrous structures to reduce the amount of
stress in each cycle, reduce the cycles, or both--and still
they can calculate when non-ferrous things should bust.

Some theory holds that steels eventually do fatigue even at
low stress cycling, but so much later that it's indefinite
for practical purposes. But no theory that I know of
predicts that a double-butted spoke will wear out in the
middle--it will break at the elbow or nipple, but not as
soon as a straight, thick spoke that is more prone to losing
all tension if it rolls under a heavily loaded axle.

For heavier loads, the usual solution is more spokes, not
thicker spokes--36 spokes might increase to 48 spokes for
many tandems and for truly heavy riders like Chalo Colina,
who has about 135 pounds on lightweights like you and 185
pounds on delicate creatures like me.

Carl Fogel


Dear Carl,

Thank you for the enlighten. I will look into double-butted spokes. I
have not yet had too many problems with 36 spokes on a wheel ... The
only spokes that brake on me are the ones from the wheel I got from the
garbage (this wheel is on my pos commuter). I am also looking for the
book you guys mentioned to me, right now though my library system. Is
this book the "wheel builders bible"? I have never had a wheel with
double-butted spokes does it make a difference in feel?

Pete

Dear Pete,

Interlibrary loan should be able to get a copy of Jobst
Brandt's "The Bicycle Wheel." If possible, specify the third
edition. Here on rec.bicycles.tech, it's often referred to
as the bible--and like any bible, it has passages that
inflame controversy.

For example, I remain agnostic about the spoke-squeezing
stress-relief theory that's supposed to make spokes
immortal, but even if turns out to be myth and lore, I can't
see how it can hurt anything.

Online, you can browse Sheldon Brown's detailed
wheel-building page he

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

It has colored diagrams, handy links to many terms, and a
reference to Jobst's book--with a link to let you buy it
online from Sheldon in Massachusetts, who can probably use
some cheering up after the Yankees trounced Boston last
night.

As for any difference in feel between butted and unbutted
spokes, I'd be astonished if anyone claimed to be able to
tell the difference. While the increased elasticity of the
thinner-middle-section spoke helps keep tension on the spoke
as it rolls under the hub, the actual amount of stretching
is tiny. The rubber of the tire deforms far more than the
spoke changes length. When you look at diagrams showing how
the rim flattens at the contact patch, there's usually a
comment that the amount of distortion is greatly
exaggerated--otherwise, you couldn't see the difference.)

However, there might be one situation in which you could
tell the difference in feel while riding double-butted
spokes. When a wheel hits something hard enough to cause a
spoke to lose all tension and go slack, there might be a
faint but unpleasant rattle and then a click as the wheel
continues rolling and tension is regained. (I've never
noticed this, but vaguely recall people mentioning it here.)

You'd get less of that with double-butted spokes. Otherwise,
the increased stretchiness would be undetectable by a rider.

Carl Fogel

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 23:53:04 +1000, big Pete
wrote:


Wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:05:58 +1000, big Pete
wrote:


Wrote:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:41:14 +1000, big Pete
wrote:


David L. Johnson Wrote:

You probably have them already, but if not I recommend butted
spokes.
They make a more reliable wheel.


I am a big guy (245 pounds last time I checked) will butted spokes
make
that big of a strength difference in the wheel? I did not buy the
rim
and spokes yet. I am thinking of a Sun double walled rim with
eyelets
that I can get for a good price. And the spokes are 14 gauge
stainless
steal (non butted) as stated in the my first post. I will Also try
to
make a dish stick. Looks like I am able to make it from the
suggestions
you guys have given me.

Thank you all

Pete

Dear Pete,

Both thick 14 gauge spokes and thin butted spokes with 14
gauge ends and a 15 gauge middle are more than strong enough
to bear the loads--they break at the ends, not in the
middle.

Double-butted spokes keep the ends thick to try to reduce
such breaks.

Their advantage is that, being thinner for most of their
length, they stretch more and therefore are less likely to
lose all tension (a bad thing) as they roll under the hub.

When the rim flattens ever so slightly against the pavement,
the spoke above it loses tension. A thick straight spoke
didn't stretch as far as a thin-center-section spoke, so the
thick spoke loses all tension and rattles, going out of true
and breaking more often and while the thin spoke can
contract that much and still have tension, which makes it
likely to last longer.

Think of them as rubber bands at the same tension, neither
of which is going to snap in the middle, but neither of
which we want to go slack. The thinner rubber band enjoys a
greater range of motion.

Carl Fogel

Dear Carl,

You are going to have to enlighten me a bit more. I think I agree
with
your analogy. OK so the thinner band has a better range of motion.
But
that would imply that they will ware out faster because of the
bigger
range of motion they are going though.

Dear Pete,

You raise a good point, but the long thinner middle section
of spokes doing the stretching simply doesn't wear out.

That is, spokes don't break in the middle. They fatigue,
crack, and fail at the elbow about nine times out of ten.
The tenth spoke one breaks at the nipple. That's why the
spokes are left thick (double-butted) at each end.

Even a thin mid-section stainless steel spoke is so strong
in tension that it isn't going to fail due to the normal
stress cycle of losing and regaining tension as it rolls
under the axle.

As others have suggested in this thread, this is roughly
what Jobst Brandt points out in "The Bicycle Wheel" when he
recommends double-butted spokes. Paradoxically, a thinner
mid-section spoke produces a more reliable wheel, not
because it is stronger than a thicker spoke (it isn't), but
because it is more than strong enough and its increased
elasticity lets it function better at what spokes need to
do, which is to maintain tension throughout the load range
without going slack.

The metallurgical side of this is that ferrous metals
(steels) have the charming characteristic of being able to
cycle indefinitely if the stress is low enough--they just
won't fatigue and break. (The elbows and nipples break
because stress is concentrated there and encouraged by
various details like the bending, the threading, and so
forth.) So the engineers can design a steel structure to
last forever in terms of stress cycles if the stress is kept
low enough.

Non-ferrous metals like aluminum, titanium, and magnesium do
not share this ruggedness. Given enough stress cycles, they
fatigue, no matter how low the stress is. The engineers have
to design non-ferrous structures to reduce the amount of
stress in each cycle, reduce the cycles, or both--and still
they can calculate when non-ferrous things should bust.

Some theory holds that steels eventually do fatigue even at
low stress cycling, but so much later that it's indefinite
for practical purposes. But no theory that I know of
predicts that a double-butted spoke will wear out in the
middle--it will break at the elbow or nipple, but not as
soon as a straight, thick spoke that is more prone to losing
all tension if it rolls under a heavily loaded axle.

For heavier loads, the usual solution is more spokes, not
thicker spokes--36 spokes might increase to 48 spokes for
many tandems and for truly heavy riders like Chalo Colina,
who has about 135 pounds on lightweights like you and 185
pounds on delicate creatures like me.

Carl Fogel


Dear Carl,

Thank you for the enlighten. I will look into double-butted spokes. I
have not yet had too many problems with 36 spokes on a wheel ... The
only spokes that brake on me are the ones from the wheel I got from the
garbage (this wheel is on my pos commuter). I am also looking for the
book you guys mentioned to me, right now though my library system. Is
this book the "wheel builders bible"? I have never had a wheel with
double-butted spokes does it make a difference in feel?

Pete

Dear Pete,

Interlibrary loan should be able to get a copy of Jobst
Brandt's "The Bicycle Wheel." If possible, specify the third
edition. Here on rec.bicycles.tech, it's often referred to
as the bible--and like any bible, it has passages that
inflame controversy.

For example, I remain agnostic about the spoke-squeezing
stress-relief theory that's supposed to make spokes
immortal, but even if turns out to be myth and lore, I can't
see how it can hurt anything.

Online, you can browse Sheldon Brown's detailed
wheel-building page he

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

It has colored diagrams, handy links to many terms, and a
reference to Jobst's book--with a link to let you buy it
online from Sheldon in Massachusetts, who can probably use
some cheering up after the Yankees trounced Boston last
night.

As for any difference in feel between butted and unbutted
spokes, I'd be astonished if anyone claimed to be able to
tell the difference. While the increased elasticity of the
thinner-middle-section spoke helps keep tension on the spoke
as it rolls under the hub, the actual amount of stretching
is tiny. The rubber of the tire deforms far more than the
spoke changes length. When you look at diagrams showing how
the rim flattens at the contact patch, there's usually a
comment that the amount of distortion is greatly
exaggerated--otherwise, you couldn't see the difference.)

However, there might be one situation in which you could
tell the difference in feel while riding double-butted
spokes. When a wheel hits something hard enough to cause a
spoke to lose all tension and go slack, there might be a
faint but unpleasant rattle and then a click as the wheel
continues rolling and tension is regained. (I've never
noticed this, but vaguely recall people mentioning it here.)

You'd get less of that with double-butted spokes. Otherwise,
the increased stretchiness would be undetectable by a rider.

Carl Fogel

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:12:36 -0600, wrote:

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 23:53:04 +1000, big Pete
wrote:


Wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:05:58 +1000, big Pete
wrote:


Wrote:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:41:14 +1000, big Pete
wrote:


David L. Johnson Wrote:

You probably have them already, but if not I recommend butted
spokes.
They make a more reliable wheel.


I am a big guy (245 pounds last time I checked) will butted spokes
make
that big of a strength difference in the wheel? I did not buy the
rim
and spokes yet. I am thinking of a Sun double walled rim with
eyelets
that I can get for a good price. And the spokes are 14 gauge
stainless
steal (non butted) as stated in the my first post. I will Also try
to
make a dish stick. Looks like I am able to make it from the
suggestions
you guys have given me.

Thank you all

Pete

Dear Pete,

Both thick 14 gauge spokes and thin butted spokes with 14
gauge ends and a 15 gauge middle are more than strong enough
to bear the loads--they break at the ends, not in the
middle.

Double-butted spokes keep the ends thick to try to reduce
such breaks.

Their advantage is that, being thinner for most of their
length, they stretch more and therefore are less likely to
lose all tension (a bad thing) as they roll under the hub.

When the rim flattens ever so slightly against the pavement,
the spoke above it loses tension. A thick straight spoke
didn't stretch as far as a thin-center-section spoke, so the
thick spoke loses all tension and rattles, going out of true
and breaking more often and while the thin spoke can
contract that much and still have tension, which makes it
likely to last longer.

Think of them as rubber bands at the same tension, neither
of which is going to snap in the middle, but neither of
which we want to go slack. The thinner rubber band enjoys a
greater range of motion.

Carl Fogel

Dear Carl,

You are going to have to enlighten me a bit more. I think I agree
with
your analogy. OK so the thinner band has a better range of motion.
But
that would imply that they will ware out faster because of the
bigger
range of motion they are going though.

Dear Pete,

You raise a good point, but the long thinner middle section
of spokes doing the stretching simply doesn't wear out.

That is, spokes don't break in the middle. They fatigue,
crack, and fail at the elbow about nine times out of ten.
The tenth spoke one breaks at the nipple. That's why the
spokes are left thick (double-butted) at each end.

Even a thin mid-section stainless steel spoke is so strong
in tension that it isn't going to fail due to the normal
stress cycle of losing and regaining tension as it rolls
under the axle.

As others have suggested in this thread, this is roughly
what Jobst Brandt points out in "The Bicycle Wheel" when he
recommends double-butted spokes. Paradoxically, a thinner
mid-section spoke produces a more reliable wheel, not
because it is stronger than a thicker spoke (it isn't), but
because it is more than strong enough and its increased
elasticity lets it function better at what spokes need to
do, which is to maintain tension throughout the load range
without going slack.

The metallurgical side of this is that ferrous metals
(steels) have the charming characteristic of being able to
cycle indefinitely if the stress is low enough--they just
won't fatigue and break. (The elbows and nipples break
because stress is concentrated there and encouraged by
various details like the bending, the threading, and so
forth.) So the engineers can design a steel structure to
last forever in terms of stress cycles if the stress is kept
low enough.

Non-ferrous metals like aluminum, titanium, and magnesium do
not share this ruggedness. Given enough stress cycles, they
fatigue, no matter how low the stress is. The engineers have
to design non-ferrous structures to reduce the amount of
stress in each cycle, reduce the cycles, or both--and still
they can calculate when non-ferrous things should bust.

Some theory holds that steels eventually do fatigue even at
low stress cycling, but so much later that it's indefinite
for practical purposes. But no theory that I know of
predicts that a double-butted spoke will wear out in the
middle--it will break at the elbow or nipple, but not as
soon as a straight, thick spoke that is more prone to losing
all tension if it rolls under a heavily loaded axle.

For heavier loads, the usual solution is more spokes, not
thicker spokes--36 spokes might increase to 48 spokes for
many tandems and for truly heavy riders like Chalo Colina,
who has about 135 pounds on lightweights like you and 185
pounds on delicate creatures like me.

Carl Fogel


Dear Carl,

Thank you for the enlighten. I will look into double-butted spokes. I
have not yet had too many problems with 36 spokes on a wheel ... The
only spokes that brake on me are the ones from the wheel I got from the
garbage (this wheel is on my pos commuter). I am also looking for the
book you guys mentioned to me, right now though my library system. Is
this book the "wheel builders bible"? I have never had a wheel with
double-butted spokes does it make a difference in feel?

Pete

Dear Pete,

Interlibrary loan should be able to get a copy of Jobst
Brandt's "The Bicycle Wheel." If possible, specify the third
edition. Here on rec.bicycles.tech, it's often referred to
as the bible--and like any bible, it has passages that
inflame controversy.

For example, I remain agnostic about the spoke-squeezing
stress-relief theory that's supposed to make spokes
immortal, but even if turns out to be myth and lore, I can't
see how it can hurt anything.

Online, you can browse Sheldon Brown's detailed
wheel-building page he

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

It has colored diagrams, handy links to many terms, and a
reference to Jobst's book--with a link to let you buy it
online from Sheldon in Massachusetts, who can probably use
some cheering up after the Yankees trounced Boston last
night.

As for any difference in feel between butted and unbutted
spokes, I'd be astonished if anyone claimed to be able to
tell the difference. While the increased elasticity of the
thinner-middle-section spoke helps keep tension on the spoke
as it rolls under the hub, the actual amount of stretching
is tiny. The rubber of the tire deforms far more than the
spoke changes length. When you look at diagrams showing how
the rim flattens at the contact patch, there's usually a
comment that the amount of distortion is greatly
exaggerated--otherwise, you couldn't see the difference.)

I'd be surprised if there weren't a difference in feel. A bike wheel's a pretty
resonant structure and resonances ARE easy to feel. Having said that I'll agree
that there won't be a discernable difference in deformation under load. But a
thinner spoke pulled to the same tension as a thicker one will resonate at a
higher pitch. All of the shock and vibration from the road is transmitted
through this resonant structure, I can't believe there won't be a difference in
feel.

Time for someone to buld up some matched wheelsets for testing and test ride
them with a focus on road buzz and vibration, etc.

Ron

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:12:36 -0600, wrote:

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 23:53:04 +1000, big Pete
wrote:


Wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:05:58 +1000, big Pete
wrote:


Wrote:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:41:14 +1000, big Pete
wrote:


David L. Johnson Wrote:

You probably have them already, but if not I recommend butted
spokes.
They make a more reliable wheel.


I am a big guy (245 pounds last time I checked) will butted spokes
make
that big of a strength difference in the wheel? I did not buy the
rim
and spokes yet. I am thinking of a Sun double walled rim with
eyelets
that I can get for a good price. And the spokes are 14 gauge
stainless
steal (non butted) as stated in the my first post. I will Also try
to
make a dish stick. Looks like I am able to make it from the
suggestions
you guys have given me.

Thank you all

Pete

Dear Pete,

Both thick 14 gauge spokes and thin butted spokes with 14
gauge ends and a 15 gauge middle are more than strong enough
to bear the loads--they break at the ends, not in the
middle.

Double-butted spokes keep the ends thick to try to reduce
such breaks.

Their advantage is that, being thinner for most of their
length, they stretch more and therefore are less likely to
lose all tension (a bad thing) as they roll under the hub.

When the rim flattens ever so slightly against the pavement,
the spoke above it loses tension. A thick straight spoke
didn't stretch as far as a thin-center-section spoke, so the
thick spoke loses all tension and rattles, going out of true
and breaking more often and while the thin spoke can
contract that much and still have tension, which makes it
likely to last longer.

Think of them as rubber bands at the same tension, neither
of which is going to snap in the middle, but neither of
which we want to go slack. The thinner rubber band enjoys a
greater range of motion.

Carl Fogel

Dear Carl,

You are going to have to enlighten me a bit more. I think I agree
with
your analogy. OK so the thinner band has a better range of motion.
But
that would imply that they will ware out faster because of the
bigger
range of motion they are going though.

Dear Pete,

You raise a good point, but the long thinner middle section
of spokes doing the stretching simply doesn't wear out.

That is, spokes don't break in the middle. They fatigue,
crack, and fail at the elbow about nine times out of ten.
The tenth spoke one breaks at the nipple. That's why the
spokes are left thick (double-butted) at each end.

Even a thin mid-section stainless steel spoke is so strong
in tension that it isn't going to fail due to the normal
stress cycle of losing and regaining tension as it rolls
under the axle.

As others have suggested in this thread, this is roughly
what Jobst Brandt points out in "The Bicycle Wheel" when he
recommends double-butted spokes. Paradoxically, a thinner
mid-section spoke produces a more reliable wheel, not
because it is stronger than a thicker spoke (it isn't), but
because it is more than strong enough and its increased
elasticity lets it function better at what spokes need to
do, which is to maintain tension throughout the load range
without going slack.

The metallurgical side of this is that ferrous metals
(steels) have the charming characteristic of being able to
cycle indefinitely if the stress is low enough--they just
won't fatigue and break. (The elbows and nipples break
because stress is concentrated there and encouraged by
various details like the bending, the threading, and so
forth.) So the engineers can design a steel structure to
last forever in terms of stress cycles if the stress is kept
low enough.

Non-ferrous metals like aluminum, titanium, and magnesium do
not share this ruggedness. Given enough stress cycles, they
fatigue, no matter how low the stress is. The engineers have
to design non-ferrous structures to reduce the amount of
stress in each cycle, reduce the cycles, or both--and still
they can calculate when non-ferrous things should bust.

Some theory holds that steels eventually do fatigue even at
low stress cycling, but so much later that it's indefinite
for practical purposes. But no theory that I know of
predicts that a double-butted spoke will wear out in the
middle--it will break at the elbow or nipple, but not as
soon as a straight, thick spoke that is more prone to losing
all tension if it rolls under a heavily loaded axle.

For heavier loads, the usual solution is more spokes, not
thicker spokes--36 spokes might increase to 48 spokes for
many tandems and for truly heavy riders like Chalo Colina,
who has about 135 pounds on lightweights like you and 185
pounds on delicate creatures like me.

Carl Fogel


Dear Carl,

Thank you for the enlighten. I will look into double-butted spokes. I
have not yet had too many problems with 36 spokes on a wheel ... The
only spokes that brake on me are the ones from the wheel I got from the
garbage (this wheel is on my pos commuter). I am also looking for the
book you guys mentioned to me, right now though my library system. Is
this book the "wheel builders bible"? I have never had a wheel with
double-butted spokes does it make a difference in feel?

Pete

Dear Pete,

Interlibrary loan should be able to get a copy of Jobst
Brandt's "The Bicycle Wheel." If possible, specify the third
edition. Here on rec.bicycles.tech, it's often referred to
as the bible--and like any bible, it has passages that
inflame controversy.

For example, I remain agnostic about the spoke-squeezing
stress-relief theory that's supposed to make spokes
immortal, but even if turns out to be myth and lore, I can't
see how it can hurt anything.

Online, you can browse Sheldon Brown's detailed
wheel-building page he

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

It has colored diagrams, handy links to many terms, and a
reference to Jobst's book--with a link to let you buy it
online from Sheldon in Massachusetts, who can probably use
some cheering up after the Yankees trounced Boston last
night.

As for any difference in feel between butted and unbutted
spokes, I'd be astonished if anyone claimed to be able to
tell the difference. While the increased elasticity of the
thinner-middle-section spoke helps keep tension on the spoke
as it rolls under the hub, the actual amount of stretching
is tiny. The rubber of the tire deforms far more than the
spoke changes length. When you look at diagrams showing how
the rim flattens at the contact patch, there's usually a
comment that the amount of distortion is greatly
exaggerated--otherwise, you couldn't see the difference.)

I'd be surprised if there weren't a difference in feel. A bike wheel's a pretty
resonant structure and resonances ARE easy to feel. Having said that I'll agree
that there won't be a discernable difference in deformation under load. But a
thinner spoke pulled to the same tension as a thicker one will resonate at a
higher pitch. All of the shock and vibration from the road is transmitted
through this resonant structure, I can't believe there won't be a difference in
feel.

Time for someone to buld up some matched wheelsets for testing and test ride
them with a focus on road buzz and vibration, etc.

Ron

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 23:42:06 -0400, Ronsonic wrote:

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:12:36 -0600, wrote:

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 23:53:04 +1000, big Pete
wrote:


Wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:05:58 +1000, big Pete
wrote:


Wrote:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:41:14 +1000, big Pete
wrote:


David L. Johnson Wrote:

You probably have them already, but if not I recommend butted
spokes.
They make a more reliable wheel.


I am a big guy (245 pounds last time I checked) will butted spokes
make
that big of a strength difference in the wheel? I did not buy the
rim
and spokes yet. I am thinking of a Sun double walled rim with
eyelets
that I can get for a good price. And the spokes are 14 gauge
stainless
steal (non butted) as stated in the my first post. I will Also try
to
make a dish stick. Looks like I am able to make it from the
suggestions
you guys have given me.

Thank you all

Pete

Dear Pete,

Both thick 14 gauge spokes and thin butted spokes with 14
gauge ends and a 15 gauge middle are more than strong enough
to bear the loads--they break at the ends, not in the
middle.

Double-butted spokes keep the ends thick to try to reduce
such breaks.

Their advantage is that, being thinner for most of their
length, they stretch more and therefore are less likely to
lose all tension (a bad thing) as they roll under the hub.

When the rim flattens ever so slightly against the pavement,
the spoke above it loses tension. A thick straight spoke
didn't stretch as far as a thin-center-section spoke, so the
thick spoke loses all tension and rattles, going out of true
and breaking more often and while the thin spoke can
contract that much and still have tension, which makes it
likely to last longer.

Think of them as rubber bands at the same tension, neither
of which is going to snap in the middle, but neither of
which we want to go slack. The thinner rubber band enjoys a
greater range of motion.

Carl Fogel

Dear Carl,

You are going to have to enlighten me a bit more. I think I agree
with
your analogy. OK so the thinner band has a better range of motion.
But
that would imply that they will ware out faster because of the
bigger
range of motion they are going though.

Dear Pete,

You raise a good point, but the long thinner middle section
of spokes doing the stretching simply doesn't wear out.

That is, spokes don't break in the middle. They fatigue,
crack, and fail at the elbow about nine times out of ten.
The tenth spoke one breaks at the nipple. That's why the
spokes are left thick (double-butted) at each end.

Even a thin mid-section stainless steel spoke is so strong
in tension that it isn't going to fail due to the normal
stress cycle of losing and regaining tension as it rolls
under the axle.

As others have suggested in this thread, this is roughly
what Jobst Brandt points out in "The Bicycle Wheel" when he
recommends double-butted spokes. Paradoxically, a thinner
mid-section spoke produces a more reliable wheel, not
because it is stronger than a thicker spoke (it isn't), but
because it is more than strong enough and its increased
elasticity lets it function better at what spokes need to
do, which is to maintain tension throughout the load range
without going slack.

The metallurgical side of this is that ferrous metals
(steels) have the charming characteristic of being able to
cycle indefinitely if the stress is low enough--they just
won't fatigue and break. (The elbows and nipples break
because stress is concentrated there and encouraged by
various details like the bending, the threading, and so
forth.) So the engineers can design a steel structure to
last forever in terms of stress cycles if the stress is kept
low enough.

Non-ferrous metals like aluminum, titanium, and magnesium do
not share this ruggedness. Given enough stress cycles, they
fatigue, no matter how low the stress is. The engineers have
to design non-ferrous structures to reduce the amount of
stress in each cycle, reduce the cycles, or both--and still
they can calculate when non-ferrous things should bust.

Some theory holds that steels eventually do fatigue even at
low stress cycling, but so much later that it's indefinite
for practical purposes. But no theory that I know of
predicts that a double-butted spoke will wear out in the
middle--it will break at the elbow or nipple, but not as
soon as a straight, thick spoke that is more prone to losing
all tension if it rolls under a heavily loaded axle.

For heavier loads, the usual solution is more spokes, not
thicker spokes--36 spokes might increase to 48 spokes for
many tandems and for truly heavy riders like Chalo Colina,
who has about 135 pounds on lightweights like you and 185
pounds on delicate creatures like me.

Carl Fogel


Dear Carl,

Thank you for the enlighten. I will look into double-butted spokes. I
have not yet had too many problems with 36 spokes on a wheel ... The
only spokes that brake on me are the ones from the wheel I got from the
garbage (this wheel is on my pos commuter). I am also looking for the
book you guys mentioned to me, right now though my library system. Is
this book the "wheel builders bible"? I have never had a wheel with
double-butted spokes does it make a difference in feel?

Pete

Dear Pete,

Interlibrary loan should be able to get a copy of Jobst
Brandt's "The Bicycle Wheel." If possible, specify the third
edition. Here on rec.bicycles.tech, it's often referred to
as the bible--and like any bible, it has passages that
inflame controversy.

For example, I remain agnostic about the spoke-squeezing
stress-relief theory that's supposed to make spokes
immortal, but even if turns out to be myth and lore, I can't
see how it can hurt anything.

Online, you can browse Sheldon Brown's detailed
wheel-building page he

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

It has colored diagrams, handy links to many terms, and a
reference to Jobst's book--with a link to let you buy it
online from Sheldon in Massachusetts, who can probably use
some cheering up after the Yankees trounced Boston last
night.

As for any difference in feel between butted and unbutted
spokes, I'd be astonished if anyone claimed to be able to
tell the difference. While the increased elasticity of the
thinner-middle-section spoke helps keep tension on the spoke
as it rolls under the hub, the actual amount of stretching
is tiny. The rubber of the tire deforms far more than the
spoke changes length. When you look at diagrams showing how
the rim flattens at the contact patch, there's usually a
comment that the amount of distortion is greatly
exaggerated--otherwise, you couldn't see the difference.)

I'd be surprised if there weren't a difference in feel. A bike wheel's a pretty
resonant structure and resonances ARE easy to feel. Having said that I'll agree
that there won't be a discernable difference in deformation under load. But a
thinner spoke pulled to the same tension as a thicker one will resonate at a
higher pitch. All of the shock and vibration from the road is transmitted
through this resonant structure, I can't believe there won't be a difference in
feel.

Time for someone to buld up some matched wheelsets for testing and test ride
them with a focus on road buzz and vibration, etc.

Ron

Dear Ron,

I think that the usual problem of claims about "feel" is
hard to overcome. No matter how resonant the structure of
the metal spokes, hub, and rim may be, it's all damped by
the inflated rubber tire.

But you could be right. A faintly similar test would be to
try to tell the difference between hitting a tire while
blindfolded with the same hammer heads mounted on different
rubber-covered shafts--wood, fiberglass, and steel. I know
that carpenters believe in differences between the feel of
such materials, but I don't know about whether they would
claim to feel the difference with a resilient rubber tire on
one end and a rubber grip on the other.

Carl Fogel

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 23:42:06 -0400, Ronsonic wrote:

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:12:36 -0600, wrote:

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 23:53:04 +1000, big Pete
wrote:


Wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:05:58 +1000, big Pete
wrote:


Wrote:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:41:14 +1000, big Pete
wrote:


David L. Johnson Wrote:

You probably have them already, but if not I recommend butted
spokes.
They make a more reliable wheel.


I am a big guy (245 pounds last time I checked) will butted spokes
make
that big of a strength difference in the wheel? I did not buy the
rim
and spokes yet. I am thinking of a Sun double walled rim with
eyelets
that I can get for a good price. And the spokes are 14 gauge
stainless
steal (non butted) as stated in the my first post. I will Also try
to
make a dish stick. Looks like I am able to make it from the
suggestions
you guys have given me.

Thank you all

Pete

Dear Pete,

Both thick 14 gauge spokes and thin butted spokes with 14
gauge ends and a 15 gauge middle are more than strong enough
to bear the loads--they break at the ends, not in the
middle.

Double-butted spokes keep the ends thick to try to reduce
such breaks.

Their advantage is that, being thinner for most of their
length, they stretch more and therefore are less likely to
lose all tension (a bad thing) as they roll under the hub.

When the rim flattens ever so slightly against the pavement,
the spoke above it loses tension. A thick straight spoke
didn't stretch as far as a thin-center-section spoke, so the
thick spoke loses all tension and rattles, going out of true
and breaking more often and while the thin spoke can
contract that much and still have tension, which makes it
likely to last longer.

Think of them as rubber bands at the same tension, neither
of which is going to snap in the middle, but neither of
which we want to go slack. The thinner rubber band enjoys a
greater range of motion.

Carl Fogel

Dear Carl,

You are going to have to enlighten me a bit more. I think I agree
with
your analogy. OK so the thinner band has a better range of motion.
But
that would imply that they will ware out faster because of the
bigger
range of motion they are going though.

Dear Pete,

You raise a good point, but the long thinner middle section
of spokes doing the stretching simply doesn't wear out.

That is, spokes don't break in the middle. They fatigue,
crack, and fail at the elbow about nine times out of ten.
The tenth spoke one breaks at the nipple. That's why the
spokes are left thick (double-butted) at each end.

Even a thin mid-section stainless steel spoke is so strong
in tension that it isn't going to fail due to the normal
stress cycle of losing and regaining tension as it rolls
under the axle.

As others have suggested in this thread, this is roughly
what Jobst Brandt points out in "The Bicycle Wheel" when he
recommends double-butted spokes. Paradoxically, a thinner
mid-section spoke produces a more reliable wheel, not
because it is stronger than a thicker spoke (it isn't), but
because it is more than strong enough and its increased
elasticity lets it function better at what spokes need to
do, which is to maintain tension throughout the load range
without going slack.

The metallurgical side of this is that ferrous metals
(steels) have the charming characteristic of being able to
cycle indefinitely if the stress is low enough--they just
won't fatigue and break. (The elbows and nipples break
because stress is concentrated there and encouraged by
various details like the bending, the threading, and so
forth.) So the engineers can design a steel structure to
last forever in terms of stress cycles if the stress is kept
low enough.

Non-ferrous metals like aluminum, titanium, and magnesium do
not share this ruggedness. Given enough stress cycles, they
fatigue, no matter how low the stress is. The engineers have
to design non-ferrous structures to reduce the amount of
stress in each cycle, reduce the cycles, or both--and still
they can calculate when non-ferrous things should bust.

Some theory holds that steels eventually do fatigue even at
low stress cycling, but so much later that it's indefinite
for practical purposes. But no theory that I know of
predicts that a double-butted spoke will wear out in the
middle--it will break at the elbow or nipple, but not as
soon as a straight, thick spoke that is more prone to losing
all tension if it rolls under a heavily loaded axle.

For heavier loads, the usual solution is more spokes, not
thicker spokes--36 spokes might increase to 48 spokes for
many tandems and for truly heavy riders like Chalo Colina,
who has about 135 pounds on lightweights like you and 185
pounds on delicate creatures like me.

Carl Fogel


Dear Carl,

Thank you for the enlighten. I will look into double-butted spokes. I
have not yet had too many problems with 36 spokes on a wheel ... The
only spokes that brake on me are the ones from the wheel I got from the
garbage (this wheel is on my pos commuter). I am also looking for the
book you guys mentioned to me, right now though my library system. Is
this book the "wheel builders bible"? I have never had a wheel with
double-butted spokes does it make a difference in feel?

Pete

Dear Pete,

Interlibrary loan should be able to get a copy of Jobst
Brandt's "The Bicycle Wheel." If possible, specify the third
edition. Here on rec.bicycles.tech, it's often referred to
as the bible--and like any bible, it has passages that
inflame controversy.

For example, I remain agnostic about the spoke-squeezing
stress-relief theory that's supposed to make spokes
immortal, but even if turns out to be myth and lore, I can't
see how it can hurt anything.

Online, you can browse Sheldon Brown's detailed
wheel-building page he

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

It has colored diagrams, handy links to many terms, and a
reference to Jobst's book--with a link to let you buy it
online from Sheldon in Massachusetts, who can probably use
some cheering up after the Yankees trounced Boston last
night.

As for any difference in feel between butted and unbutted
spokes, I'd be astonished if anyone claimed to be able to
tell the difference. While the increased elasticity of the
thinner-middle-section spoke helps keep tension on the spoke
as it rolls under the hub, the actual amount of stretching
is tiny. The rubber of the tire deforms far more than the
spoke changes length. When you look at diagrams showing how
the rim flattens at the contact patch, there's usually a
comment that the amount of distortion is greatly
exaggerated--otherwise, you couldn't see the difference.)

I'd be surprised if there weren't a difference in feel. A bike wheel's a pretty
resonant structure and resonances ARE easy to feel. Having said that I'll agree
that there won't be a discernable difference in deformation under load. But a
thinner spoke pulled to the same tension as a thicker one will resonate at a
higher pitch. All of the shock and vibration from the road is transmitted
through this resonant structure, I can't believe there won't be a difference in
feel.

Time for someone to buld up some matched wheelsets for testing and test ride
them with a focus on road buzz and vibration, etc.

Ron

Dear Ron,

I think that the usual problem of claims about "feel" is
hard to overcome. No matter how resonant the structure of
the metal spokes, hub, and rim may be, it's all damped by
the inflated rubber tire.

But you could be right. A faintly similar test would be to
try to tell the difference between hitting a tire while
blindfolded with the same hammer heads mounted on different
rubber-covered shafts--wood, fiberglass, and steel. I know
that carpenters believe in differences between the feel of
such materials, but I don't know about whether they would
claim to feel the difference with a resilient rubber tire on
one end and a rubber grip on the other.

Carl Fogel

wrote:
snip

Dear Ron,

I think that the usual problem of claims about "feel" is
hard to overcome. No matter how resonant the structure of
the metal spokes, hub, and rim may be, it's all damped by
the inflated rubber tire.

if i flick a highly inflated tire with my finger, and the whole wheel
rings like a bell, has the shock of that minor impact been all damped by
the rubber or has it been transmitted to the wheels structure?


But you could be right. A faintly similar test would be to
try to tell the difference between hitting a tire while
blindfolded with the same hammer heads mounted on different
rubber-covered shafts--wood, fiberglass, and steel. I know
that carpenters believe in differences between the feel of
such materials, but I don't know about whether they would
claim to feel the difference with a resilient rubber tire on
one end and a rubber grip on the other.

Carl Fogel