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  #11  
Old June 13th 09, 07:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default For Frank Krygowski's helmet files

On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 09:44:18 -0700 (PDT), Jay Beattie
wrote:

On Jun 13, 6:28*am, Tom Sherman °_°
wrote:
aka Carl Fogel wrote:

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_12573813


We can all agree that it's a nice photo of two volunteers helping a
disabled child enjoy a hand-cranked tricycle.


But *. . .


The happy child couldn't fall and hit his head unless one of the two
volunteers on either side decided to tip his tricycle over.[...]


Maybe the child rides in motor vehicles, gardens, takes baths and
participates in other high head injury risk activities.


Or as stated above, maybe he has a seizure disorder? Or maybe there
is a law in the state requiring all children under the age of 16 to
wear a helmet, and they are following the law? Or maybe the
organizers are required by their insurance companies to have
participants wear helmets? Or maybe they are just super cautious
because these kids are already so disabled that dropping them on their
heads while doing a transfer would cause them great discomfort? -- Jay
Beattie.


Dear Jay,

Sorry, no bicycle helmet laws in Colorado.

And the two kids in the background are wearing helmets in the parking
lot with no helpers around.

But helmets are given away with bicycles, along with training wheels,
in Colorado:
http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_12481734

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
Ads
  #12  
Old June 13th 09, 08:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tim McNamara
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Posts: 6,945
Default For Frank Krygowski's helmet files

In article ,
"Leo Lichtman" wrote:

"Frank Krygowski" wrote: I recall once seeing a handicapped young
man, accompanied by his father, wearing a helmet in a restaurant.
But that was the only time I'd seen such a thing.

I once had a student who suffered a grand mal seizure - a truly
frightening experience for me - but he never wore a helmet at school,
AFAIK.

Perhaps the reason bike helmets are promoted so heavily is that
people expect a great many seizures among bicyclists?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Carl's post sounded very reasonable, but then I read what Peter S.
wrote--his explanation is very reasonable, and seems well grounded.
Your response sounds like a desperate, doctrinaire obfuscation.


Has anyone ascertained that the child in question *has* a seizure
disorder? That is only one of hundreds of possible reasons for this
young person to be in a wheelchair or using a hand-cranked bike. Spina
bifida, traumatic spinal injury, spinal meningioma, cerebral palsy,
normal pressure hydrocephalus, inherited spinocerebellar ataxia,
muscular dystrophy.... the list goes on and on.

This thread has been filled with unverifiable speculation. The simplest
and likeliest reason is that the organizers of the camp wished to limit
liability risks and required helmet use as a result. Their insurance
company may have required it. This lad wearing a helmet has got nothing
to do with whether helmets provide any useful protection and everything
to do with the *belief" that helmets "prevent 80% of head injuries."

The problem, of course, is that the claim that helmets prevent head
injuries in any meaningful way is yet to be proven. Until Bell
discovered profits through fearmongering in the 1970s, bicycling was
considered a safe, benign and even innocent activity. Now it is seen as
millions of head injuries just waiting to happen unless your head is
wrapped in a glorified beer cooler. Pathetic.

As a comparison, hundreds of thousands of Danes without helmets riding
in urban traffic every day:

http://www.copenhagencyclechic.com/

without an epidemic of brain injuries. Maybe the Danes just have
innately better balance than Americans. BTW, scroll down to the fourth
photo in the 11 June entry. Now that's a way to market bicycling.
  #13  
Old June 13th 09, 08:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Kerry Montgomery
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Posts: 676
Default For Frank Krygowski's helmet files


wrote in message
...
On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 05:29:44 -0700 (PDT), "Peter S."
wrote:

On 13 Jun., 08:11, wrote:

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_12573813

We can all agree that it's a nice photo of two volunteers helping a
disabled child enjoy a hand-cranked tricycle.

But . . .

The happy child couldn't fall and hit his head unless one of the two
volunteers on either side decided to tip his tricycle over.


Don't underestimate the power of an epileptic attack; they can snap
bones if the seizure patient is restrained, tipping over a tricycle
during a seizure can be done if the attack is severe enough.
Lots of handicaps are associated with brain damage that again is
associated with epilepsy. Epileptics really should avoid even minor
brain concussions, and since seizures or spastic attacks comes without
any warning, it is understandably that the organizers issued a
"everybody must wear a helmet" order.


According to the article, nine-year-old Bryce uses a wheelchair
regularly and is good at fencing, so he's not likely to topple over
while just riding around.


That the kid on the picture may have more problems than merely non-
functional legs seems underscored by the fact that the two helpers are
tracking him so closely, while the kids in the background are cycling
unattended.
Also, notice the AFAIK huge black velcro strap across his belly (his t-
shirt is green) and the chair. He is likely spastic, epileptic or
have some other brain/nerve deficiency that makes that necessary.

If a tricycle is so dangerous that the kid needs a helmet to ride one
with two volunteers walking next to him and holding on, shouldn't the
volunteers be wearing helmets, too?


It doesn't look like a normal bicycle helmet he is wearing, but some
kind of soft helmet like boxers uses for training. Some handicapped
people wears such helmets all the time, perhaps for being autistic
self-harmers or because they have balance problems perhaps combined
with conditions that makes it very important that they don't even get
minor head traumas. The kid in the picture is very likely in a special
risk situation.

Here is another wheelchair user, but with a full face helmet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc1YdL_w1Hg


Dear Peter,

Could be.

But what about the other two helmeted kids in the background on
tricycles? No helpers, but helmets in a parking lot.

And what about these happy children in another recent Denver post
article?
http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_12481734

There's no hint in the article that they're suffering from any
problems whatsoever. They're just kids riding bicycles with training
wheels and helmets.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel


Carl,
Are you saying that training wheels eliminate the possibility of falling
over?
Thanks,
Kerry


  #14  
Old June 13th 09, 08:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Bill Sornson[_5_]
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Posts: 1,541
Default For Frank Krygowski's helmet files

wrote:
On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 09:44:18 -0700 (PDT), Jay Beattie
wrote:

On Jun 13, 6:28 am, Tom Sherman °_°
wrote:
aka Carl Fogel wrote:

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_12573813

We can all agree that it's a nice photo of two volunteers helping a
disabled child enjoy a hand-cranked tricycle.

But . . .

The happy child couldn't fall and hit his head unless one of the
two volunteers on either side decided to tip his tricycle
over.[...]

Maybe the child rides in motor vehicles, gardens, takes baths and
participates in other high head injury risk activities.


Or as stated above, maybe he has a seizure disorder? Or maybe there
is a law in the state requiring all children under the age of 16 to
wear a helmet, and they are following the law? Or maybe the
organizers are required by their insurance companies to have
participants wear helmets? Or maybe they are just super cautious
because these kids are already so disabled that dropping them on
their heads while doing a transfer would cause them great
discomfort? -- Jay Beattie.


Dear Jay,

Sorry, no bicycle helmet laws in Colorado.

And the two kids in the background are wearing helmets in the parking
lot with no helpers around.

But helmets are given away with bicycles, along with training wheels,
in Colorado:
http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_12481734


By one organization. Good for them.


  #15  
Old June 13th 09, 08:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,934
Default For Frank Krygowski's helmet files

On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 12:26:06 -0700, "Kerry Montgomery"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 05:29:44 -0700 (PDT), "Peter S."
wrote:

On 13 Jun., 08:11, wrote:

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_12573813

We can all agree that it's a nice photo of two volunteers helping a
disabled child enjoy a hand-cranked tricycle.

But . . .

The happy child couldn't fall and hit his head unless one of the two
volunteers on either side decided to tip his tricycle over.

Don't underestimate the power of an epileptic attack; they can snap
bones if the seizure patient is restrained, tipping over a tricycle
during a seizure can be done if the attack is severe enough.
Lots of handicaps are associated with brain damage that again is
associated with epilepsy. Epileptics really should avoid even minor
brain concussions, and since seizures or spastic attacks comes without
any warning, it is understandably that the organizers issued a
"everybody must wear a helmet" order.


According to the article, nine-year-old Bryce uses a wheelchair
regularly and is good at fencing, so he's not likely to topple over
while just riding around.

That the kid on the picture may have more problems than merely non-
functional legs seems underscored by the fact that the two helpers are
tracking him so closely, while the kids in the background are cycling
unattended.
Also, notice the AFAIK huge black velcro strap across his belly (his t-
shirt is green) and the chair. He is likely spastic, epileptic or
have some other brain/nerve deficiency that makes that necessary.

If a tricycle is so dangerous that the kid needs a helmet to ride one
with two volunteers walking next to him and holding on, shouldn't the
volunteers be wearing helmets, too?

It doesn't look like a normal bicycle helmet he is wearing, but some
kind of soft helmet like boxers uses for training. Some handicapped
people wears such helmets all the time, perhaps for being autistic
self-harmers or because they have balance problems perhaps combined
with conditions that makes it very important that they don't even get
minor head traumas. The kid in the picture is very likely in a special
risk situation.

Here is another wheelchair user, but with a full face helmet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc1YdL_w1Hg


Dear Peter,

Could be.

But what about the other two helmeted kids in the background on
tricycles? No helpers, but helmets in a parking lot.

And what about these happy children in another recent Denver post
article?
http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_12481734

There's no hint in the article that they're suffering from any
problems whatsoever. They're just kids riding bicycles with training
wheels and helmets.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel


Carl,
Are you saying that training wheels eliminate the possibility of falling
over?
Thanks,
Kerry


Dear Kerry,

Nope.

In the same vein, I'm pretty sure that you're not saying that the kids
should wear helmets while walking in case they fall over.

:-)

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
  #16  
Old June 13th 09, 09:31 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Peter S.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 112
Default For Frank Krygowski's helmet files

On 13 Jun., 20:50, wrote:

But what about the other two helmeted kids in the background on
tricycles? No helpers, but helmets in a parking lot.


Their handicap is probably much smaller than the kid in the front,
perhaps they merely vision impaired spastics that can't use their
legs.
Anyway, with any random group of handicapped kids, you will find that
a lot of them will have severe balance problems, body coordination
problems, brain disorders like epilepsy etc. It probably makes sense
for a lot of the kids to wear helmets for extraordinary activities
like that sport event.

And what about these happy children in another recent Denver post
article?
http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_12481734

There's no hint in the article that they're suffering from any
problems whatsoever. They're just kids riding bicycles with training
wheels and helmets.


The training wheels are a shame. They don't learn to ride properly
with those contraptions on.

--
Regards
  #17  
Old June 13th 09, 10:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Peter S.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 112
Default For Frank Krygowski's helmet files

On 13 Jun., 21:25, Tim McNamara wrote:

As a comparison, hundreds of thousands of Danes without helmets riding
in urban traffic every day:


Helmet use in Denmark is sharply rising these years. Good thing too,
since helmet use is proven to reduce head injuries and deaths (see TØI
rapport 572/2002)
Yeah, I know, helmets haters are in denial about this, so you will
probably ignore this too, I don't care.

http://www.copenhagencyclechic.com/

without an epidemic of brain injuries. Maybe the Danes just have
innately better balance than Americans. BTW, scroll down to the fourth
photo in the 11 June entry. Now that's a way to market bicycling.


Even in a small country like Denmark, bicycle related head injuries
are measured in their thousands. (6500 head traumas, of these, 1200
were considered serious; average numbers from 2000-2004 as reported
from hospitals).

I have no problem with people riding without helmet, but I severely
dislike how helmet haters ignores simple facts that helmets do reduce
head injuries and deaths among cyclists. I have this strong suspicion
that helmet haters have this hidden agenda, that by claiming that
helmets doesn't work, they can prevent mandatory helmet laws. This of
course is a totally wrong political tactic. By outright denying simple
facts, helmet haters marginalizes themselves as kooks. It is also a
looser tactic to only have a negative message; the ordinary voter may
very well support mandatory bicycle helmets because, if helmets works,
then lives will be saved, and if helmets doesn't work, then no harm
was done in making the helmets mandatory.
In short, helmet haters are a political liability for us that opposes
mandatory helmet laws.

--
Regards
  #18  
Old June 13th 09, 10:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Sherman °_°
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Posts: 344
Default For Frank Krygowski's helmet files

Peter S.??? wrote:
[...]
I have no problem with people riding without helmet, but I severely
dislike how helmet haters ignores simple facts that helmets do reduce
head injuries and deaths among cyclists.[...]


Those "facts" are highly disputable, and that has been discussed here
until the deceased equine complained about the excessive flagellation.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
  #19  
Old June 13th 09, 10:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,628
Default For Frank Krygowski's helmet files

On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 14:14:15 -0700 (PDT), "Peter S."
wrote:

I severely
dislike how helmet haters ignores simple facts that helmets do reduce
head injuries and deaths among cyclists.


I severely dislike how people how urge helmet use on bikes are so
dismissive of the value of helmets in cars.
  #20  
Old June 13th 09, 10:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mike Jacoubowsky
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Posts: 2,972
Default For Frank Krygowski's helmet files

"Peter S." wrote in message
...
On 13 Jun., 08:11, wrote:

Don't underestimate the power of an epileptic attack; they can snap
bones if the seizure patient is restrained, tipping over a tricycle
during a seizure can be done if the attack is severe enough.
Lots of handicaps are associated with brain damage that again is
associated with epilepsy. Epileptics really should avoid even minor
brain concussions, and since seizures or spastic attacks comes without
any warning, it is understandably that the organizers issued a
"everybody must wear a helmet" order.


#1: If indeed this poor kid suffers from sudden uncontrollable and
frequent epileptic attacks, or simply has severe motor or balance
issues, the helmet is likely part of his normal routine, and has nothing
to do with riding the trike. He's possibly more likely to injure himself
on his feet than on the trike.

#2: Epileptics play football, LaCrosse and many other hard-contact
sports in which "even minor brain concussions" could certainly happen,
and yet it's not seen as an issue. Please review this -
http://www.epilepsy.com/info/teens_gen_sports before making any such
claims.

#3: Epileptic seizures are typically (for many, almost always) preceded
by something called an "aura." It is not correct to say that seizures
come "without any warning." It may not allow enough time to safely
disengage from whatever one is doing, but there is often a warning.

There are a huge number of people with epilepsy, and it's likely you
know some and aren't aware of it. Most are fortunate to lead fairly
normal lives, although unless their seizures have been completely under
control for a given amount of time, you won't find them driving a car.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA



"Peter S." wrote in message
...
On 13 Jun., 08:11, wrote:

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_12573813

We can all agree that it's a nice photo of two volunteers helping a
disabled child enjoy a hand-cranked tricycle.

But . . .

The happy child couldn't fall and hit his head unless one of the two
volunteers on either side decided to tip his tricycle over.


Don't underestimate the power of an epileptic attack; they can snap
bones if the seizure patient is restrained, tipping over a tricycle
during a seizure can be done if the attack is severe enough.
Lots of handicaps are associated with brain damage that again is
associated with epilepsy. Epileptics really should avoid even minor
brain concussions, and since seizures or spastic attacks comes without
any warning, it is understandably that the organizers issued a
"everybody must wear a helmet" order.


According to the article, nine-year-old Bryce uses a wheelchair
regularly and is good at fencing, so he's not likely to topple over
while just riding around.


That the kid on the picture may have more problems than merely non-
functional legs seems underscored by the fact that the two helpers are
tracking him so closely, while the kids in the background are cycling
unattended.
Also, notice the AFAIK huge black velcro strap across his belly (his
t-
shirt is green) and the chair. He is likely spastic, epileptic or
have some other brain/nerve deficiency that makes that necessary.

If a tricycle is so dangerous that the kid needs a helmet to ride one
with two volunteers walking next to him and holding on, shouldn't the
volunteers be wearing helmets, too?


It doesn't look like a normal bicycle helmet he is wearing, but some
kind of soft helmet like boxers uses for training. Some handicapped
people wears such helmets all the time, perhaps for being autistic
self-harmers or because they have balance problems perhaps combined
with conditions that makes it very important that they don't even get
minor head traumas. The kid in the picture is very likely in a special
risk situation.

Here is another wheelchair user, but with a full face helmet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc1YdL_w1Hg

--
Regards



 




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