Idea for future of electronic gear shift. Beware, contains actual"tech" content.

M-B doesnot give a HOOT waht James thinks abt servo door locks.

But muh van has a servo door lock system simplifies life IF YOU REMEBER TO UNLOCK BEFORE EVA.

I criiiinnnnnnnngggggg at the expense involved for service on an older Merc French sedan but these bike parts will cost peanuts, wrok precisely, effortlessly..

remeber, you speaking or discussing a group who goes on into the future babbling abt energy savings as if the original electricity source was cost free...like plug into your maple.

On Jul 5, 10:17*pm, James wrote:
On 05/07/12 16:39, Lou Holtman wrote: Op donderdag 5 juli 2012 08:16:38 UTC+2 schreef James het volgende:
You are getting old James. You have tio
watch out not to become a second 'Frank'. Nobody point a gun to your
head to buy or use anything.

Let's not forget, I love innovations like clipless pedals, ergo levers,
cassettes and outboard BB bearings. *It's not like I'm against
innovation where I see real benefit to me.

Nor am I, although I may want to see more "real benefit" than you do.
And it can be hard to separate the real benefit from the hype. I
still don't use clipless pedals or outboard BB bearings, for example;
and I notice that all the folks I normally ride with usually follow me
up the hills, despite their claims of greater efficiency.

It cost a friend $300 per door to have the electronic door lock
actuators replaced. *3 out of 4 doors went faulty over a short time. *My
mechanical door locks are still fine. *I like DL (Distributed Locking)
as opposed to Central Locking, and manual window winders in my car.

To me, one of the biggest problems with electronic anything is the
lack of repairability. Mechanical systems I can usually fix with
tools I own, using homemade parts or baling wire if necessary.
Electronic part failures generally mean buying a replacement, if I'm
"lucky" enough that the device I have is still fashionable enough to
be on the market.

Derailleurs from 1940 can still be fixed by a good mechanic. Anybody
got spare electrical parts for a Mavic Zap? I doubt it. It would be
easier to find spare Betamax parts.

- Frank Krygowski




--
JS.

On Thu, 5 Jul 2012 10:39:28 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Jul 5, 2:16*am, James wrote:
So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
switches and a battery. *But what's next?

Those cables and the battery are still a pain.

Could each device generate enough of it's own charge to make wireless
gear shift with no need to carry heavy batteries?

Could they use piezoelectricity to power a transmitter in the
handlebars, and a miniature dynamo on the jockey wheel of the rear
deraileur to power the receiver and gear shift mech?

What about the front deraileur I hear you ask? *Could the chain be used
to modulate a static (permanent) magnetic field and pickup AC current
using a coil?

How about a helmet with mind sensors that allow us to think "shift up"
and it just happens?

It all sounds so complicated and fragile. *I'm gonna hang on to my SS
gear cables as long as I can.

One thing I've done over the years with lots of decisions (home
remodeling, work-related, car buying, etc. etc.) is to evaluate
features or benefits on a dollar benefit basis, asking "What would I
be willing to spend for that benefit?"

The answer varies for each individual, of course. But with some bike
developments, the amount of benefit is greatly exaggerated. And the
"benefit" of simply being the first guy on the block with the new toy
is rarely admitted.

What would I pay for the "benefit" of trading a perfectly functioning
steel cable for a wire and battery? Hmmm....

- Frank Krygowski


Come now Frank, it was known as "keeping up with the Jones" and was a
marketing ploy at least as early as the Roman Empire :-)

But I wonder about these marvels of progress. I once read an interview
with Eddie Merckx, I believe it was, and he was asked about the new
Shimano indexed shifting. Eddie said that it was a nice system and the
interviewer said something like, "you will probably never miss another
shift" and Merkx replied, "I haven't missed a shift since I was eight
years old".

On Thu, 05 Jul 2012 16:16:38 +1000, James
wrote:

So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
switches and a battery. But what's next?

That should be obvious. A fully automatic bicycle. Such a machine
would not be for you or me. We're both accustomed to shifting to the
point where it is almost unconscious. However, there are a great
number of individuals that are not so familiar with the art of
shifting. I've seen bicycles with the detailer cables rusted in
place. For these people, a fully automatic transmission would be
quite useful.

For electric brakes, the obvious next step is to mimic the automobile
technology and add anti-skid ABS braking systems. However, that's not
the main advantage. Electric brakes are force multipliers that can
make it possible for someone with a weak grip or misadjusted calipers,
to stop the bike.

Once we add the battery, wires, and microprocessor to the machine, the
possibilities are endless. Integrated lighting system, 360 cameras,
gyro stabilization, navigation aids, can be added once a power source
is provided. However, I suspect that the initial exploitation will be
less attractive. For example, not needing to shift and using push
button brakes might translate into an excuse to yack on a cell phone
while riding.

Those cables and the battery are still a pain.

Yep. But that's because the bicycle frame is not designed to
accommodate them. Bolt-ons always look crude. Cables should be
routed inside the tubes. If impossible, then inside a molded conduit
attached to the outside of the tubes. I use a form of flat ethernet
cable designed to lay flat under a carpet, which might be a good
start. Something like this, but with ears:
http://www.vpi.us/cable-sf.html

The battery is a problem. It won't require something as large as an
electric bicycle battery, but a sandwich of LiIon batteries mounted on
the inside of the frame, shouldn't be too obnoxious. Again, the frame
should be designed to accomidate the battery.

Could each device generate enough of it's own charge to make wireless
gear shift with no need to carry heavy batteries?

Three problems in one sentence.
1. It would not require a heavy battery. LiIon batteries are quite
light. What's not light is the PM generator/alternator required to
charge the batteries.
2. I don't know how much power would be required to do the shifting.
Google didn't find any numbers. So, my initial guess is that it would
require more than could be supplied by the typical lighting bottle
generator (about 3 watts) and would therefore be somewhat bigger.
3. Wireless gear shifting might be tolerable. I'm not going to crash
because they missed or delayed a shift. However, wireless braking is
another story. I would want highly reliable braking, possibly with a
backup. I wouldn't trust the brakes to wireless. Too many things to
go wrong. However, a wired electric brake is fine.

Could they use piezoelectricity to power a transmitter in the
handlebars, and a miniature dynamo on the jockey wheel of the rear
deraileur to power the receiver and gear shift mech?

No. Piezo just doesn't generator enough power. It also generates
high voltages, which would need to be down converted to semiconductor
levels. However, a common Lithium button cell, as found in all
automotive key fobs should work.

The detailer mounted generator is possible, but the added wires might
be a bit messy. I don't think the little wheel is big enough to house
a big enough generator.

What about the front deraileur I hear you ask? Could the chain be used
to modulate a static (permanent) magnetic field and pickup AC current
using a coil?

Well, there's plenty of power available on the drive chain. The
problem is that it's there only when I'm cranking. Charging or
generating would stop if a were coasting or braking. That's why
lighting generators don't use a chain drive.

I suppose the chain could be magnetized to provide power. However,
since the pickup coil would only cover a small part of the chain, the
power generating capabilities would be limited. Keeping the chain
centered in the pickup coil might also be a problem as there is no
place on the frame where the chain position isn't a moving target.

How about a helmet with mind sensors that allow us to think "shift up"
and it just happens?

It's possible, but I suspect it would not be sufficiently reliable.
Besides, it would require a helmet full of sensors, and that might
precipitate another endless helmet discussion.

It all sounds so complicated and fragile.

It isn't really that complicated. Once you have power, wire, and a
microprocessor, the added utility will more than compensate for any
added complexity.

I'm gonna hang on to my SS
gear cables as long as I can.

Please don't hang yourself. This is the only on topic and intelligent
question in this newsgroup for many weeks. You are needed.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Jul 5, 2:25 pm, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/5/2012 1:16 AM, James wrote:



So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with
electrical cables, switches and a battery. But what's next?

Those cables and the battery are still a pain.

Could each device generate enough of it's own charge to make
wireless gear shift with no need to carry heavy batteries?

Could they use piezoelectricity to power a transmitter in
the handlebars, and a miniature dynamo on the jockey wheel
of the rear deraileur to power the receiver and gear shift
mech?

What about the front deraileur I hear you ask? Could the
chain be used to modulate a static (permanent) magnetic
field and pickup AC current using a coil?

How about a helmet with mind sensors that allow us to think
"shift up" and it just happens?

It all sounds so complicated and fragile. I'm gonna hang on
to my SS gear cables as long as I can.

Options abound, which is good.

My fixed gear bike is dependable to an otherworldly level.
I change the chain annually. Haven't done anything much else
on it since 1992. Starts and runs at well below zero too.


Beat me to it :-)

On Fri, 06 Jul 2012 12:17:42 +1000, James
wrote:

On 05/07/12 16:39, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op donderdag 5 juli 2012 08:16:38 UTC+2 schreef James het volgende:
So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
switches and a battery. But what's next?


It all sounds so complicated and fragile. I'm gonna hang on to my SS
gear cables as long as I can.

It is not complicated at all if you compare it with other stuff you
use without thinkng about it. You are getting old James. You have tio
watch out not to become a second 'Frank'. Nobody point a gun to your
head to buy or use anything.


Let's not forget, I love innovations like clipless pedals, ergo levers,
cassettes and outboard BB bearings. It's not like I'm against
innovation where I see real benefit to me.

It cost a friend $300 per door to have the electronic door lock
actuators replaced. 3 out of 4 doors went faulty over a short time. My
mechanical door locks are still fine. I like DL (Distributed Locking)
as opposed to Central Locking, and manual window winders in my car.


Can you still buy a car with mechanical window cranks? They are long
gone over here. It is a Sedan? That is air con, radio, center lock,
electric windows and auto-transmission standard.

In article ,
says...


So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
switches and a battery. But what's next?

Those cables and the battery are still a pain.

Could each device generate enough of it's own charge to make
wireless
gear shift with no need to carry heavy batteries?

Could they use piezoelectricity to power a transmitter in the
handlebars, and a miniature dynamo on the jockey wheel of the rear
deraileur to power the receiver and gear shift mech?

What about the front deraileur I hear you ask? Could the chain be
used
to modulate a static (permanent) magnetic field and pickup AC
current
using a coil?

How about a helmet with mind sensors that allow us to think "shift
up"
and it just happens?

It all sounds so complicated and fragile. I'm gonna hang on to my SS
gear cables as long as I can.

--
J "Not and early adopter" S.
Bluetooth

On Jul 6, 1:13*am, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jul 2012 16:16:38 +1000, James
wrote:

So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
switches and a battery. *But what's next?

That should be obvious. *A fully automatic bicycle. *Such a machine
would not be for you or me. *We're both accustomed to shifting to the
point where it is almost unconscious. *However, there are a great
number of individuals that are not so familiar with the art of
shifting. *I've seen bicycles with the detailer cables rusted in
place. *For these people, a fully automatic transmission would be
quite useful.

For electric brakes, the obvious next step is to mimic the automobile
technology and add anti-skid ABS braking systems. *However, that's not
the main advantage. *Electric brakes are force multipliers that can
make it possible for someone with a weak grip or misadjusted calipers,
to stop the bike.

Once we add the battery, wires, and microprocessor to the machine, the
possibilities are endless. *Integrated lighting system, 360 cameras,
gyro stabilization, navigation aids, can be added once a power source
is provided. *However, I suspect that the initial exploitation will be
less attractive. *For example, not needing to shift and using push
button brakes might translate into an excuse to yack on a cell phone
while riding.

Those cables and the battery are still a pain.

Yep. *But that's because the bicycle frame is not designed to
accommodate them. *Bolt-ons always look crude. *Cables should be
routed inside the tubes. *If impossible, then inside a molded conduit
attached to the outside of the tubes. *I use a form of flat ethernet
cable designed to lay flat under a carpet, which might be a good
start. *Something like this, but with ears:
http://www.vpi.us/cable-sf.html

The battery is a problem. *It won't require something as large as an
electric bicycle battery, but a sandwich of LiIon batteries mounted on
the inside of the frame, shouldn't be too obnoxious. *Again, the frame
should be designed to accomidate the battery.

Could each device generate enough of it's own charge to make wireless
gear shift with no need to carry heavy batteries?

Three problems in one sentence.
1. *It would not require a heavy battery. *LiIon batteries are quite
light. *What's not light is the PM generator/alternator required to
charge the batteries.
2. *I don't know how much power would be required to do the shifting.
Google didn't find any numbers. *So, my initial guess is that it would
require more than could be supplied by the typical lighting bottle
generator (about 3 watts) and would therefore be somewhat bigger.
3. *Wireless gear shifting might be tolerable. *I'm not going to crash
because they missed or delayed a shift. *However, wireless braking is
another story. *I would want highly reliable braking, possibly with a
backup. *I wouldn't trust the brakes to wireless. *Too many things to
go wrong. *However, a wired electric brake is fine.

Could they use piezoelectricity to power a transmitter in the
handlebars, and a miniature dynamo on the jockey wheel of the rear
deraileur to power the receiver and gear shift mech?

No. *Piezo just doesn't generator enough power. *It also generates
high voltages, which would need to be down converted to semiconductor
levels. *However, a common Lithium button cell, as found in all
automotive key fobs should work.

The detailer mounted generator is possible, but the added wires might
be a bit messy. *I don't think the little wheel is big enough to house
a big enough generator.

What about the front deraileur I hear you ask? *Could the chain be used
to modulate a static (permanent) magnetic field and pickup AC current
using a coil?

Well, there's plenty of power available on the drive chain. *The
problem is that it's there only when I'm cranking. *Charging or
generating would stop if a were coasting or braking. *That's why
lighting generators don't use a chain drive.

I suppose the chain could be magnetized to provide power. *However,
since the pickup coil would only cover a small part of the chain, the
power generating capabilities would be limited. *Keeping the chain
centered in the pickup coil might also be a problem as there is no
place on the frame where the chain position isn't a moving target.

How about a helmet with mind sensors that allow us to think "shift up"
and it just happens?

It's possible, but I suspect it would not be sufficiently reliable.
Besides, it would require a helmet full of sensors, and that might
precipitate another endless helmet discussion.

It all sounds so complicated and fragile.

It isn't really that complicated. *Once you have power, wire, and a
microprocessor, the added utility will more than compensate for any
added complexity.

I'm gonna hang on to my SS
gear cables as long as I can.

Please don't hang yourself. *This is the only on topic and intelligent
question in this newsgroup for many weeks. *You are needed.

--
Jeff Liebermann * *
150 Felker St #D * *http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann * * AE6KS * *831-336-2558

If they perfect the spray on battery then power may not be a problem
any longer. This link mentions a T-shirt that may be developed that
may be used to recharge a cell phone. The other material might be able
to coat the bicycle frame so that the frame itsel becomes the battery.

http://www.pocketgamer.co.uk/r/Multi...ws.asp?c=42749

Cheers

On Fri, 6 Jul 2012 09:46:32 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

If they perfect the spray on battery then power may not be a problem
any longer. This link mentions a T-shirt that may be developed that
may be used to recharge a cell phone. The other material might be able
to coat the bicycle frame so that the frame itsel becomes the battery.

http://www.pocketgamer.co.uk/r/Multi...ws.asp?c=42749

Ummm... some electric bicycles already have the battery inside the
frame:
http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/battery-in-frame-electric-bike.html

Perhaps an aluminum air battery?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium%E2%80%93air_batteries
The only problem is that your aluminum frame will slowly oxidize away
as the battery is depleted.

You can also take a pile of alternating nickels and pennies, insert
them in a tube full of salt water, and produce a usable battery that
will fit inside a frame tube. The advantage is that if you don't need
the power, you an extract the coins and spend them as needed.
Recharging consists of riding to the bank, replacing the coins, and
then taking a plunge in the nearest ocean to replenish the
electrolyte.

The water bottle battery has been available for lighting for quite
some time, but that's too easy. Perhaps building a spiral wrap cell
into a water bottle size battery might be useful.
http://www.toyotaoffroad.com/Articles/Reviews/Optima/Optima.htm

Then, there's Gruber Assist:
http://dvice.com/archives/2009/05/gruber-assist-e.php
http://www.electricbike.com/gruber-assist/

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 06 Jul 2012 09:09:39 -0700, Ronko
wrote:

Bluetooth

Easily jammed both intentionally and accidentally by other users of
the 2.4GHz band. That includes wi-fi, cordless phones, remote
controls, wireless video, municipal wi-fi, etc.

There are ways to obtain wireless reliability (e.g. redundancy,
frequency diversity, spatial diversity, UWB, etc), but BT is not the
answer.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558