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  #91  
Old September 4th 17, 08:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 7:40:21 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/3/2017 11:06 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Sun, 03 Sep 2017 13:32:48 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
Without an educated populace the gatekeepers are powerless and wishing
for an educated population is a fool's dream. And here we are.


Yep. And unfortunately there is a large percentage of the American
population who have opted to be stupid and proud of it.

I have said this before and will say it again. I have for decades
thought that a class in logic ought to be required in every high school..
In a participatory form of government- like, you know, democracy, a
basic level of non-idiocy is required for success.

Unfortunately someone decided that "education creates liberals," and
thus far too many politicians have decided to oppose competent public
education (at least here, don't know about other parts of the country).


ISTM the "education creates liberals" effort is concentrating on
denigrating university professors and college education. There's a
gaggle of right-wing columnists who dig deep to find admittedly silly
things occurring in some schools and leap to statements that academia is
totally worthless.

I think the tactic with K-12 has been entirely different. Corporations
have focused on bad results from inner-city schools and gamed the system
to promote, then run, for-profit charter schools. Then they've gotten
rich by siphoning off the tax dollars.

In Ohio, at least, these for-profit charter schools were promising to
provide far better educations. But they've consistently delivered no
better and often far worse results. After years of educational failure,
many were closed down by the state, but later re-formed with most of the
same administrators under a new name, as a "new" school that rakes in
yet more taxpayer money.

As a bonus, for years they were exempt from many of the standards that
public schools must meet. Oh, and they pay teachers far less while
paying administrators far more.

Here I'll sound like a conservative: schools need to have standards and
accountability for behavior and educational performance, parents (or
someone in the home) need to be actively involved in their children's
scholastic life.


I'll agree, although bad family background makes it damned hard to get
kids to behave and perform. Society seems to look at kids with absent
fathers, layabout mothers, ramshackle homes and gang-banger role models,
and blame the teachers for not turning those kids into hard-working
geniuses.

And we need to recognize that not everyone wants to or
is able to attend college successfully, which seems to be the current
goal of Americam education policy; there should be multiple educational
tracks available to help students acquire the skills they need to be
successful.


I absolutely agree.


Frank, education is good. But I have sat in on classes in which the professor mentions not one single word about what the course is about but spends an entire hour or more politically propagandizing young people whose minds are not yet adept at picking and choosing between truth and fiction. I was summarily kicked out of an calculus class for saying so.
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  #92  
Old September 4th 17, 08:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 11:45:56 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 9:52:22 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 10:24:47 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped
Well, you can pass the cost of wages along in price, assuming price elasticity. Smokers don't have a similar option for increasing revenues to cover the cost of cigarettes -- so the markets do operate differently. Paying a higher minimum wage also stimulates the economy because workers have more buying power. It's trickle-up instead of trickle-down. My son earned sh** in a bike shop and then took all his earnings and bought a bike from the shop. Good discount, but still a money maker for the shop.

-- Jay Beattie.


But how long before the price increases due to the mimimum wage increase negates the minimum wage increase? It seems to negate it pretty quickly here.


Depends on the market and the amount increase in minimum wage, and I'm not saying there should be an astronomical minimum wage. I'm just saying that the market effect of raising minimum wage is complex and not like the effect of spiking the price of cigarettes. It is not some form of economic punishment to curb unhealthy behavior.


Here's the way higher wages work: you don't bring in workers from all over the world. That means that production is limited by the number of workers who can then demand a higher wage.

The way it presently is these so-called minimum wage jobs are those that can and should be largely automated and will be if the minimum wages rise. This then leaves more workers than jobs and the person willing to accept the lowest wage wins out. My last paying position I was making a quarter of a million a year. The same position now is paying 125-175. Do you think they will pay an American 175 or an Indian 125?
  #93  
Old September 4th 17, 09:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 9:47:15 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 11:45:56 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 9:52:22 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 10:24:47 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped
Well, you can pass the cost of wages along in price, assuming price elasticity. Smokers don't have a similar option for increasing revenues to cover the cost of cigarettes -- so the markets do operate differently. Paying a higher minimum wage also stimulates the economy because workers have more buying power. It's trickle-up instead of trickle-down. My son earned sh** in a bike shop and then took all his earnings and bought a bike from the shop. Good discount, but still a money maker for the shop.

-- Jay Beattie.

But how long before the price increases due to the mimimum wage increase negates the minimum wage increase? It seems to negate it pretty quickly here.


Depends on the market and the amount increase in minimum wage, and I'm not saying there should be an astronomical minimum wage. I'm just saying that the market effect of raising minimum wage is complex and not like the effect of spiking the price of cigarettes. It is not some form of economic punishment to curb unhealthy behavior.


Here's the way higher wages work: you don't bring in workers from all over the world. That means that production is limited by the number of workers who can then demand a higher wage.

The way it presently is these so-called minimum wage jobs are those that can and should be largely automated and will be if the minimum wages rise. This then leaves more workers than jobs and the person willing to accept the lowest wage wins out. My last paying position I was making a quarter of a million a year. The same position now is paying 125-175. Do you think they will pay an American 175 or an Indian 125?


Hey Tom, you just posted 10 posts in a little more than half an hour, only in this thread. We can't keep up with you. Go ride bike and give us a break..

Lou
  #94  
Old September 4th 17, 10:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 3,345
Default Jobst

On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 1:02:53 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 9:47:15 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 11:45:56 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 9:52:22 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 10:24:47 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped
Well, you can pass the cost of wages along in price, assuming price elasticity. Smokers don't have a similar option for increasing revenues to cover the cost of cigarettes -- so the markets do operate differently. Paying a higher minimum wage also stimulates the economy because workers have more buying power. It's trickle-up instead of trickle-down. My son earned sh** in a bike shop and then took all his earnings and bought a bike from the shop. Good discount, but still a money maker for the shop.

-- Jay Beattie.

But how long before the price increases due to the mimimum wage increase negates the minimum wage increase? It seems to negate it pretty quickly here.

Depends on the market and the amount increase in minimum wage, and I'm not saying there should be an astronomical minimum wage. I'm just saying that the market effect of raising minimum wage is complex and not like the effect of spiking the price of cigarettes. It is not some form of economic punishment to curb unhealthy behavior.


Here's the way higher wages work: you don't bring in workers from all over the world. That means that production is limited by the number of workers who can then demand a higher wage.

The way it presently is these so-called minimum wage jobs are those that can and should be largely automated and will be if the minimum wages rise.. This then leaves more workers than jobs and the person willing to accept the lowest wage wins out. My last paying position I was making a quarter of a million a year. The same position now is paying 125-175. Do you think they will pay an American 175 or an Indian 125?


Hey Tom, you just posted 10 posts in a little more than half an hour, only in this thread. We can't keep up with you. Go ride bike and give us a break.


Just did 72 miles and nearly got heat prostration yesterday so you're condemned to me frozen to the sweat and raising hell.
  #95  
Old September 4th 17, 10:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 12:47:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 11:45:56 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 9:52:22 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 10:24:47 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped
Well, you can pass the cost of wages along in price, assuming price elasticity. Smokers don't have a similar option for increasing revenues to cover the cost of cigarettes -- so the markets do operate differently. Paying a higher minimum wage also stimulates the economy because workers have more buying power. It's trickle-up instead of trickle-down. My son earned sh** in a bike shop and then took all his earnings and bought a bike from the shop. Good discount, but still a money maker for the shop.

-- Jay Beattie.

But how long before the price increases due to the mimimum wage increase negates the minimum wage increase? It seems to negate it pretty quickly here.


Depends on the market and the amount increase in minimum wage, and I'm not saying there should be an astronomical minimum wage. I'm just saying that the market effect of raising minimum wage is complex and not like the effect of spiking the price of cigarettes. It is not some form of economic punishment to curb unhealthy behavior.


Here's the way higher wages work: you don't bring in workers from all over the world. That means that production is limited by the number of workers who can then demand a higher wage.

The way it presently is these so-called minimum wage jobs are those that can and should be largely automated and will be if the minimum wages rise. This then leaves more workers than jobs and the person willing to accept the lowest wage wins out. My last paying position I was making a quarter of a million a year. The same position now is paying 125-175. Do you think they will pay an American 175 or an Indian 125?


Migrant workers may or may not depress wages. They're offering $15-16/hr to cut grapes in Sonoma, and they're not getting home-grown workers. Anglos refuse to do certain things, e.g. hard work.

A perfect market should fix all this, but look at the low unemployment and the lack of real wage growth. Something is not working, and I don't know what it is. In any normal market, wages would be rising, inflation would be rising, interest rates would be rising. Bonds would be going up; the market would be dipping a little as people moved into safer and now decent yield investments. None of that is happening.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #96  
Old September 5th 17, 03:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 5,697
Default Jobst

On Mon, 04 Sep 2017 08:14:59 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 9/4/2017 12:49 AM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 03 Sep 2017 22:06:16 -0500, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Sun, 03 Sep 2017 13:32:48 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
Without an educated populace the gatekeepers are powerless and wishing
for an educated population is a fool's dream. And here we are.

Yep. And unfortunately there is a large percentage of the American
population who have opted to be stupid and proud of it.

I have said this before and will say it again. I have for decades
thought that a class in logic ought to be required in every high school.
In a participatory form of government- like, you know, democracy, a
basic level of non-idiocy is required for success.

Unfortunately someone decided that "education creates liberals," and
thus far too many politicians have decided to oppose competent public
education (at least here, don't know about other parts of the country).
Here I'll sound like a conservative: schools need to have standards and
accountability for behavior and educational performance, parents (or
someone in the home) need to be actively involved in their children's
scholastic life. And we need to recognize that not everyone wants to or
is able to attend college successfully, which seems to be the current
goal of Americam education policy; there should be multiple educational
tracks available to help students acquire the skills they need to be
successful.

One thing I heard from Trump a while back was having some sort of system
for apprenticeships, which Germany- probably among others- has done with
success for decades; haven't heard a peep about it since, so maybe it
fell off the radar. I think that would be a good idea. In my state we
seem intent on dismantling the trade schools because of the emphasis on
college as the be-all and end-all of education.


Apprenticeship used to be a method of learning a trade. Abraham
Lincoln, I believe, "read for the law" which was realistically an
apprenticeship program.

It eventually became a term used to describe a learning period for the
manual trades (one might call them) and then the manual trades became
obsolete. Does anyone get up in the middle of the night to knead
tomorrow's bread? Or dig a ditch by hand?

I completed an apprenticeship to be a "Machinist", although I
subsequently went to an engineering school, but I can remember as
early as the mid-late 1960's that very little work for a qualified
machinist existed. One or maybe two in a big shop and the rest were
machine operators.

I know that The Donald talked about apprenticeships, and increasing
employment, and increasing minimum salaries, and reducing costs, and,
and, but I haven't seen much progress being made.

Now there is an exercise in logic. (1) Increase wages which certainly
contributes to higher sales prices, and (2) reduce costs?



Mayor Comerade Bill in NYC says that increasing cigarette
taxes will stop smoking but increasing the minimum wage will
not stop employment.

Hey Tim McNamara - could you loan him a logic textbook?


Somewhere I read something about "Why are we are advised to NOT judge
ALL Muslims by the actions of a few lunatics, but we are encouraged to
judge ALL gun owners by the actions of a few lunatics."

--
Cheers,

John B.

  #97  
Old September 5th 17, 03:54 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 5,697
Default Jobst

On Mon, 4 Sep 2017 09:52:17 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 10:24:47 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped
Well, you can pass the cost of wages along in price, assuming price elasticity. Smokers don't have a similar option for increasing revenues to cover the cost of cigarettes -- so the markets do operate differently. Paying a higher minimum wage also stimulates the economy because workers have more buying power. It's trickle-up instead of trickle-down. My son earned sh** in a bike shop and then took all his earnings and bought a bike from the shop. Good discount, but still a money maker for the shop.

-- Jay Beattie.


But how long before the price increases due to the mimimum wage increase negates the minimum wage increase? It seems to negate it pretty quickly here.

Cheers


A few years ago Thailand raised the minimum wage. Prices went the next
morning.

And, that is not a generalization. I was shopping for a sink faucet
and noticed some plumbing bits were higher then they had been "last
week" and asked the owner of the shop and he told me that yes, prices
are higher "because we have to pay higher wages". I took the trouble
to check prices in several other shops where I shopped frequently and
all the prices had gone up.

I read a survey taken among "working folks" which showed that two
years after the minimum wage was raised they didn't think that they
were any better off then they had been before wages went up.

On the other hand raising legal wages does show that the government
has the workers interests at heart.

--
Cheers,

John B.

  #98  
Old September 5th 17, 03:58 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 5,697
Default Jobst

On Mon, 4 Sep 2017 14:39:09 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 12:47:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 11:45:56 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 9:52:22 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 10:24:47 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped
Well, you can pass the cost of wages along in price, assuming price elasticity. Smokers don't have a similar option for increasing revenues to cover the cost of cigarettes -- so the markets do operate differently. Paying a higher minimum wage also stimulates the economy because workers have more buying power. It's trickle-up instead of trickle-down. My son earned sh** in a bike shop and then took all his earnings and bought a bike from the shop. Good discount, but still a money maker for the shop.

-- Jay Beattie.

But how long before the price increases due to the mimimum wage increase negates the minimum wage increase? It seems to negate it pretty quickly here.

Depends on the market and the amount increase in minimum wage, and I'm not saying there should be an astronomical minimum wage. I'm just saying that the market effect of raising minimum wage is complex and not like the effect of spiking the price of cigarettes. It is not some form of economic punishment to curb unhealthy behavior.


Here's the way higher wages work: you don't bring in workers from all over the world. That means that production is limited by the number of workers who can then demand a higher wage.

The way it presently is these so-called minimum wage jobs are those that can and should be largely automated and will be if the minimum wages rise. This then leaves more workers than jobs and the person willing to accept the lowest wage wins out. My last paying position I was making a quarter of a million a year. The same position now is paying 125-175. Do you think they will pay an American 175 or an Indian 125?


Migrant workers may or may not depress wages. They're offering $15-16/hr to cut grapes in Sonoma, and they're not getting home-grown workers. Anglos refuse to do certain things, e.g. hard work.

A perfect market should fix all this, but look at the low unemployment and the lack of real wage growth. Something is not working, and I don't know what it is. In any normal market, wages would be rising, inflation would be rising, interest rates would be rising. Bonds would be going up; the market would be dipping a little as people moved into safer and now decent yield investments. None of that is happening.

-- Jay Beattie.


I suspect that one of the larger problems is the democratic political
system where a politician says "Vote for me" and the population says
"Why?"

--
Cheers,

John B.

  #99  
Old September 5th 17, 01:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Jobst

On 9/4/2017 4:39 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 12:47:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 11:45:56 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 9:52:22 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 10:24:47 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped
Well, you can pass the cost of wages along in price, assuming price elasticity. Smokers don't have a similar option for increasing revenues to cover the cost of cigarettes -- so the markets do operate differently. Paying a higher minimum wage also stimulates the economy because workers have more buying power. It's trickle-up instead of trickle-down. My son earned sh** in a bike shop and then took all his earnings and bought a bike from the shop. Good discount, but still a money maker for the shop.

-- Jay Beattie.

But how long before the price increases due to the mimimum wage increase negates the minimum wage increase? It seems to negate it pretty quickly here.

Depends on the market and the amount increase in minimum wage, and I'm not saying there should be an astronomical minimum wage. I'm just saying that the market effect of raising minimum wage is complex and not like the effect of spiking the price of cigarettes. It is not some form of economic punishment to curb unhealthy behavior.


Here's the way higher wages work: you don't bring in workers from all over the world. That means that production is limited by the number of workers who can then demand a higher wage.

The way it presently is these so-called minimum wage jobs are those that can and should be largely automated and will be if the minimum wages rise. This then leaves more workers than jobs and the person willing to accept the lowest wage wins out. My last paying position I was making a quarter of a million a year. The same position now is paying 125-175. Do you think they will pay an American 175 or an Indian 125?


Migrant workers may or may not depress wages. They're offering $15-16/hr to cut grapes in Sonoma, and they're not getting home-grown workers. Anglos refuse to do certain things, e.g. hard work.

A perfect market should fix all this, but look at the low unemployment and the lack of real wage growth. Something is not working, and I don't know what it is. In any normal market, wages would be rising, inflation would be rising, interest rates would be rising. Bonds would be going up; the market would be dipping a little as people moved into safer and now decent yield investments. None of that is happening.

-- Jay Beattie.


or current thought among economists, "Somethings badly awry
with the economy. Actual facts as observed just don't fit
our model."

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #100  
Old September 5th 17, 01:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Jobst

On 9/4/2017 9:58 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Sep 2017 14:39:09 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 12:47:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 11:45:56 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 9:52:22 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 10:24:47 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped
Well, you can pass the cost of wages along in price, assuming price elasticity. Smokers don't have a similar option for increasing revenues to cover the cost of cigarettes -- so the markets do operate differently. Paying a higher minimum wage also stimulates the economy because workers have more buying power. It's trickle-up instead of trickle-down. My son earned sh** in a bike shop and then took all his earnings and bought a bike from the shop. Good discount, but still a money maker for the shop.

-- Jay Beattie.

But how long before the price increases due to the mimimum wage increase negates the minimum wage increase? It seems to negate it pretty quickly here.

Depends on the market and the amount increase in minimum wage, and I'm not saying there should be an astronomical minimum wage. I'm just saying that the market effect of raising minimum wage is complex and not like the effect of spiking the price of cigarettes. It is not some form of economic punishment to curb unhealthy behavior.

Here's the way higher wages work: you don't bring in workers from all over the world. That means that production is limited by the number of workers who can then demand a higher wage.

The way it presently is these so-called minimum wage jobs are those that can and should be largely automated and will be if the minimum wages rise. This then leaves more workers than jobs and the person willing to accept the lowest wage wins out. My last paying position I was making a quarter of a million a year. The same position now is paying 125-175. Do you think they will pay an American 175 or an Indian 125?


Migrant workers may or may not depress wages. They're offering $15-16/hr to cut grapes in Sonoma, and they're not getting home-grown workers. Anglos refuse to do certain things, e.g. hard work.

A perfect market should fix all this, but look at the low unemployment and the lack of real wage growth. Something is not working, and I don't know what it is. In any normal market, wages would be rising, inflation would be rising, interest rates would be rising. Bonds would be going up; the market would be dipping a little as people moved into safer and now decent yield investments. None of that is happening.

-- Jay Beattie.


I suspect that one of the larger problems is the democratic political
system where a politician says "Vote for me" and the population says
"Why?"


Sometimes the population has had enough and resorts to
beating Dear Leader to death hanging from his heels.

https://rasica.files.wordpress.com/2...pg?w=538&h=373


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


 




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