#111
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Jobst
On Tue, 5 Sep 2017 16:18:30 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau
wrote: On Tuesday, September 5, 2017 at 6:59:41 AM UTC-7, wrote: On Tuesday, September 5, 2017 at 5:44:07 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 9/4/2017 9:58 PM, John B. wrote: On Mon, 4 Sep 2017 14:39:09 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie wrote: On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 12:47:15 PM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 11:45:56 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 9:52:22 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, September 4, 2017 at 10:24:47 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote: Snipped Well, you can pass the cost of wages along in price, assuming price elasticity. Smokers don't have a similar option for increasing revenues to cover the cost of cigarettes -- so the markets do operate differently. Paying a higher minimum wage also stimulates the economy because workers have more buying power. It's trickle-up instead of trickle-down. My son earned sh** in a bike shop and then took all his earnings and bought a bike from the shop. Good discount, but still a money maker for the shop. -- Jay Beattie. But how long before the price increases due to the mimimum wage increase negates the minimum wage increase? It seems to negate it pretty quickly here. Depends on the market and the amount increase in minimum wage, and I'm not saying there should be an astronomical minimum wage. I'm just saying that the market effect of raising minimum wage is complex and not like the effect of spiking the price of cigarettes. It is not some form of economic punishment to curb unhealthy behavior. Here's the way higher wages work: you don't bring in workers from all over the world. That means that production is limited by the number of workers who can then demand a higher wage. The way it presently is these so-called minimum wage jobs are those that can and should be largely automated and will be if the minimum wages rise. This then leaves more workers than jobs and the person willing to accept the lowest wage wins out. My last paying position I was making a quarter of a million a year. The same position now is paying 125-175. Do you think they will pay an American 175 or an Indian 125? Migrant workers may or may not depress wages. They're offering $15-16/hr to cut grapes in Sonoma, and they're not getting home-grown workers. Anglos refuse to do certain things, e.g. hard work. A perfect market should fix all this, but look at the low unemployment and the lack of real wage growth. Something is not working, and I don't know what it is. In any normal market, wages would be rising, inflation would be rising, interest rates would be rising. Bonds would be going up; the market would be dipping a little as people moved into safer and now decent yield investments. None of that is happening. -- Jay Beattie. I suspect that one of the larger problems is the democratic political system where a politician says "Vote for me" and the population says "Why?" Sometimes the population has had enough and resorts to beating Dear Leader to death hanging from his heels. https://rasica.files.wordpress.com/2...pg?w=538&h=373 This indeed happened. And who did it? The cowards that hid in the shadows for the entire war. They called themselves the Antifa for "Anti-Facists". While the Catholics spent the entire war smuggling Jews and other enemies of the Germans to safety, the Antifa did nothing but kill Mussolini after he had been disarmed and put safely in a jail and they wouldn't put themselves in danger by dragging a defenseless man out and murdering him instead of waiting for the trial. We are seeing the same thing occurring in the USA - Is it the so-called "white nationalists" whom the media are painting as "the KKK or Neo-NAZIs" who are hiding in the shadows? No, it is the Antifa showing up for "protests" wearing hard hats and anti-tear gas goggles. Carrying weapons and with pillow cases pulled over their heads died black so they can claim that they really aren't the sons of the real KKK. The Antifa ARE a terrorist organization and every one of them should be arrested and stand trial before a jury of their peers so that they can see what real people think of them. The news reports of the conflict in people's park in berkely were hilarious. "The clash has been mostly peaceful so far; however, some bagels and a hard-boiled egg were thrown" I wonder whether this will become a "new age" verb? "To Bagel", I bagled him/her." Or would that be "baggeled"? -- Cheers, John B. |
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#112
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Jobst
On Tue, 5 Sep 2017 11:35:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 9/4/2017 10:41 PM, John B. wrote: Somewhere I read something about "Why are we are advised to NOT judge ALL Muslims by the actions of a few lunatics, but we are encouraged to judge ALL gun owners by the actions of a few lunatics." I think demonizing muslims happens much more often than demonizing gun owners. Seems to me the gun control crowd mostly asks for background checks and bans on guns designed to kill people (as opposed to guns designed for hunting). I don't see much call for jailing or deporting gun owners. Supposedly, a majority of NRA members want better background checks. I doubt that those NRA members consider gun owners lunatics. You need to get out among them. One guy, on another group, argued that all the gun crime in N.G. is caused by lax gun laws in W. Virginia. When I asked him whether the "Sullivan" law in New York which made it extremely difficult to buy or own a pistol had any effect on the Mafia wars he argued that those statistics didn't count. Or read about any of the schools shootings.... "if he hadn't had the gun he wouldn't have shot them". Mull that over for a moment. By the way, the numbers of persons killed in shootings in schools in 2015 was 19. the number of Teen's killed in auto accidents in 2015 was 2,333 and 221,313 were injured sufficiently to require treatment in emergency Clinics. But I will say that the guy that got into the Swiss Insurance company hasn't triggered any great hue and cry to "BAN CHAINSAWS!" :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
#113
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Jobst
On Tue, 05 Sep 2017 17:01:31 -0500, Tim McNamara
wrote: On Mon, 04 Sep 2017 12:49:06 +0700, John B wrote: Apprenticeship used to be a method of learning a trade. Abraham Lincoln, I believe, "read for the law" which was realistically an apprenticeship program. It eventually became a term used to describe a learning period for the manual trades (one might call them) and then the manual trades became obsolete. Does anyone get up in the middle of the night to knead tomorrow's bread? Or dig a ditch by hand? Yes to people getting up early to make tomorrow's bread. We have dozens of bakeries around here with people doing exactly that. Ditches seem to be dug with mechanized equipment rather than a shovel these days, and that's probably just as well. That kind of labor ends up being destructive to the laborer. Destructive? Exercise? Swinging a pick for eight hours a day. Or doing any other manual labour. How so? I completed an apprenticeship to be a "Machinist", although I subsequently went to an engineering school, but I can remember as early as the mid-late 1960's that very little work for a qualified machinist existed. One or maybe two in a big shop and the rest were machine operators. My apprenticeship, as such, was as a glazier which was my father's trade. I did that for 7 years during high school and college. But even in more technical fields like medicine, nursing, etc., there is a period of apprenticeship by another name. I know that The Donald talked about apprenticeships, and increasing employment, and increasing minimum salaries, and reducing costs, and, and, but I haven't seen much progress being made. Well, he's made plenty of progress in being a douchebag. Now there is an exercise in logic. (1) Increase wages which certainly contributes to higher sales prices, and (2) reduce costs? -- Cheers, One of the many knots in capitalism. It's a system we're dedicated to but doesn't really work that well- even though it works better than all the alternatives tried thus far. Yup, that paraphrases Winston Churchill, who actually said " Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." But still, the basic problem with democracy is the politician gets up and says, "Vote for me." The audience says, "Why?" As for capitalism.... what else is there? -- Cheers, John B. |
#114
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Jobst
On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 1:05:25 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
Destructive? Exercise? Swinging a pick for eight hours a day. Or doing any other manual labour. How so? Well, it's plain that you've never worked. Yup, that paraphrases Winston Churchill, who actually said " Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." But still, the basic problem with democracy is the politician gets up and says, "Vote for me." The audience says, "Why?" As for capitalism.... what else is there? There is socialism as described by Marx and Lenin. |
#115
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Jobst
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#116
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Jobst
On Wed, 06 Sep 2017 15:05:20 +0700, John B wrote:
On Tue, 05 Sep 2017 17:01:31 -0500, Tim McNamara wrote: On Mon, 04 Sep 2017 12:49:06 +0700, John B wrote: Apprenticeship used to be a method of learning a trade. Abraham Lincoln, I believe, "read for the law" which was realistically an apprenticeship program. It eventually became a term used to describe a learning period for the manual trades (one might call them) and then the manual trades became obsolete. Does anyone get up in the middle of the night to knead tomorrow's bread? Or dig a ditch by hand? Yes to people getting up early to make tomorrow's bread. We have dozens of bakeries around here with people doing exactly that. Ditches seem to be dug with mechanized equipment rather than a shovel these days, and that's probably just as well. That kind of labor ends up being destructive to the laborer. Destructive? Exercise? Swinging a pick for eight hours a day. Or doing any other manual labour. How so? Seriously? Have you only had desk jobs? Hard labor jobs like digging ditches, swinging a pick, repeated heavy lifting, etc., routinely cause damage. Back problems, arthritis, etc. In my career I have seen thousands of people disabled by the long term toll their careers took on their bodies. The taxpayers, BTW, are paying for their nursing home placements. Back in my days of working in a produce warehouse as a lumper, every Friday two of us would carry 36,000 pounds of bananas out of the semi trailer in their boxes, stack 'em on pallets, pull them across the warehouse into the storage rooms (bananas are kept relatively warm; if chilled they won't ripen properly) with a manual pallet jack. Even though I was 22 and strong as an ox in those days, I was damned sore after that. Watermelons were worse, they weren't in boxes. Back in those days I could toss a 100 lb bag of spuds on my shoulder and lump it upstairs, with 50 bag of onions I could run upstairs. Now I probably couldn't get the bag of spuds up off the floor. I completed an apprenticeship to be a "Machinist", although I subsequently went to an engineering school, but I can remember as early as the mid-late 1960's that very little work for a qualified machinist existed. One or maybe two in a big shop and the rest were machine operators. My apprenticeship, as such, was as a glazier which was my father's trade. I did that for 7 years during high school and college. But even in more technical fields like medicine, nursing, etc., there is a period of apprenticeship by another name. I know that The Donald talked about apprenticeships, and increasing employment, and increasing minimum salaries, and reducing costs, and, and, but I haven't seen much progress being made. Well, he's made plenty of progress in being a douchebag. Now there is an exercise in logic. (1) Increase wages which certainly contributes to higher sales prices, and (2) reduce costs? -- Cheers, One of the many knots in capitalism. It's a system we're dedicated to but doesn't really work that well- even though it works better than all the alternatives tried thus far. Yup, that paraphrases Winston Churchill, who actually said " Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." But still, the basic problem with democracy is the politician gets up and says, "Vote for me." The audience says, "Why?" As for capitalism.... what else is there? Good question. Russia and China's attempts at communism didn't pan out. But capitalism depends on inflation to provide the illusion of growth, as well as a constantly growing population to provide an expanding market. If the population stops growing, the economy collapses. However, we've reached a point where further population growth is rapidly becoming unsustainable. The massive increase in wealth disparity over the past 50 years is also unsustainable- top heavy structures do not stand long. Those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. Buckle up for deja vu! |
#117
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Jobst
On Thu, 07 Sep 2017 00:04:28 -0500, Tim McNamara
wrote: On Wed, 06 Sep 2017 15:05:20 +0700, John B wrote: On Tue, 05 Sep 2017 17:01:31 -0500, Tim McNamara wrote: On Mon, 04 Sep 2017 12:49:06 +0700, John B wrote: Apprenticeship used to be a method of learning a trade. Abraham Lincoln, I believe, "read for the law" which was realistically an apprenticeship program. It eventually became a term used to describe a learning period for the manual trades (one might call them) and then the manual trades became obsolete. Does anyone get up in the middle of the night to knead tomorrow's bread? Or dig a ditch by hand? Yes to people getting up early to make tomorrow's bread. We have dozens of bakeries around here with people doing exactly that. Ditches seem to be dug with mechanized equipment rather than a shovel these days, and that's probably just as well. That kind of labor ends up being destructive to the laborer. Destructive? Exercise? Swinging a pick for eight hours a day. Or doing any other manual labour. How so? Seriously? Have you only had desk jobs? Hard labor jobs like digging ditches, swinging a pick, repeated heavy lifting, etc., routinely cause damage. Back problems, arthritis, etc. In my career I have seen thousands of people disabled by the long term toll their careers took on their bodies. The taxpayers, BTW, are paying for their nursing home placements. No, as I wrote in another post, I was raised on a small farm in New England where just about everything was done by hand. Run a water line out to the barn" You need a six foot deep trench to get below the frost line. My father used to pay someone to mow the field and the rest of the haying was done by hand. You want a new barn? Well get a hammer and saw and build it. My paternal grandfather raised chickens, in 3,000 chicken lots. By himself, no help. He also cut wood, by hand, for the month of September, to heat his house during a New England winter. My mother's father broke his leg at 70 years of age, fell off a loaded hay wagon, pitching hay up into the mow.O.K. the family considered it a "dam fool thing to do" but he did it. My Paternal grandfather died at 87 and my maternal grandfather at 92. No disability. No Charity. Back in my days of working in a produce warehouse as a lumper, every Friday two of us would carry 36,000 pounds of bananas out of the semi trailer in their boxes, stack 'em on pallets, pull them across the warehouse into the storage rooms (bananas are kept relatively warm; if chilled they won't ripen properly) with a manual pallet jack. Even though I was 22 and strong as an ox in those days, I was damned sore after that. Watermelons were worse, they weren't in boxes. Back in those days I could toss a 100 lb bag of spuds on my shoulder and lump it upstairs, with 50 bag of onions I could run upstairs. Now I probably couldn't get the bag of spuds up off the floor. I completed an apprenticeship to be a "Machinist", although I subsequently went to an engineering school, but I can remember as early as the mid-late 1960's that very little work for a qualified machinist existed. One or maybe two in a big shop and the rest were machine operators. My apprenticeship, as such, was as a glazier which was my father's trade. I did that for 7 years during high school and college. But even in more technical fields like medicine, nursing, etc., there is a period of apprenticeship by another name. I know that The Donald talked about apprenticeships, and increasing employment, and increasing minimum salaries, and reducing costs, and, and, but I haven't seen much progress being made. Well, he's made plenty of progress in being a douchebag. Now there is an exercise in logic. (1) Increase wages which certainly contributes to higher sales prices, and (2) reduce costs? -- Cheers, One of the many knots in capitalism. It's a system we're dedicated to but doesn't really work that well- even though it works better than all the alternatives tried thus far. Yup, that paraphrases Winston Churchill, who actually said " Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." But still, the basic problem with democracy is the politician gets up and says, "Vote for me." The audience says, "Why?" As for capitalism.... what else is there? Good question. Russia and China's attempts at communism didn't pan out. But capitalism depends on inflation to provide the illusion of growth, as well as a constantly growing population to provide an expanding market. If the population stops growing, the economy collapses. However, we've reached a point where further population growth is rapidly becoming unsustainable. The massive increase in wealth disparity over the past 50 years is also unsustainable- top heavy structures do not stand long. Those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. Buckle up for deja vu! It isn't only Capitalism that seems to have to grow. A good friend grew up in Hungary under the communist system and while I never questioned him specifically, he did mention improvements in the life some enthusiasm. Bicycle to motorcycle was one example I remember. As for wealth disparity, I can remember when a doctor made a house call.... for $2.00 :-) To be honest I never paid a doctor $2.00 to make a house call but I remember being sick and the doctor coming and my folks talking about $2.00. Granted, I was just a kid but my salary was eleven cents a week for milking the cow six evenings a week. And slopping two hogs. But in a more serious vein, what is "wealth disparity"? Is it that you make more money then I do? I'm fairly sure that you do as you seem to be still working and I'm retired. Should I be rushing around waving my arms in the air shouting Unfair! Unfair! The concept that a bloke who starts a business selling bootleg records out of the trunk of his car, for example, is not entitled to everything he can make, or the guy, not even a collage graduate, that starts up a little two man business that grows because they can provide a service, is not entitled to his earnings, seems wrong to me. -- Cheers, John B. |
#118
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Jobst
On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 12:08:49 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 07 Sep 2017 00:04:28 -0500, Tim McNamara wrote: On Wed, 06 Sep 2017 15:05:20 +0700, John B wrote: On Tue, 05 Sep 2017 17:01:31 -0500, Tim McNamara wrote: On Mon, 04 Sep 2017 12:49:06 +0700, John B wrote: Apprenticeship used to be a method of learning a trade. Abraham Lincoln, I believe, "read for the law" which was realistically an apprenticeship program. It eventually became a term used to describe a learning period for the manual trades (one might call them) and then the manual trades became obsolete. Does anyone get up in the middle of the night to knead tomorrow's bread? Or dig a ditch by hand? Yes to people getting up early to make tomorrow's bread. We have dozens of bakeries around here with people doing exactly that. Ditches seem to be dug with mechanized equipment rather than a shovel these days, and that's probably just as well. That kind of labor ends up being destructive to the laborer. Destructive? Exercise? Swinging a pick for eight hours a day. Or doing any other manual labour. How so? Seriously? Have you only had desk jobs? Hard labor jobs like digging ditches, swinging a pick, repeated heavy lifting, etc., routinely cause damage. Back problems, arthritis, etc. In my career I have seen thousands of people disabled by the long term toll their careers took on their bodies. The taxpayers, BTW, are paying for their nursing home placements. No, as I wrote in another post, I was raised on a small farm in New England where just about everything was done by hand. Run a water line out to the barn" You need a six foot deep trench to get below the frost line. My father used to pay someone to mow the field and the rest of the haying was done by hand. You want a new barn? Well get a hammer and saw and build it. That's nothing. We never had a color TV! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo The paradox of physical labor: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4681272/ Construction laborers have a higher obesity rate than librarians. -- Jay Beattie. |
#120
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Jobst
On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 10:04:36 PM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Wed, 06 Sep 2017 15:05:20 +0700, John B wrote: On Tue, 05 Sep 2017 17:01:31 -0500, Tim McNamara wrote: On Mon, 04 Sep 2017 12:49:06 +0700, John B wrote: Apprenticeship used to be a method of learning a trade. Abraham Lincoln, I believe, "read for the law" which was realistically an apprenticeship program. It eventually became a term used to describe a learning period for the manual trades (one might call them) and then the manual trades became obsolete. Does anyone get up in the middle of the night to knead tomorrow's bread? Or dig a ditch by hand? Yes to people getting up early to make tomorrow's bread. We have dozens of bakeries around here with people doing exactly that. Ditches seem to be dug with mechanized equipment rather than a shovel these days, and that's probably just as well. That kind of labor ends up being destructive to the laborer. Destructive? Exercise? Swinging a pick for eight hours a day. Or doing any other manual labour. How so? Seriously? Have you only had desk jobs? Hard labor jobs like digging ditches, swinging a pick, repeated heavy lifting, etc., routinely cause damage. Back problems, arthritis, etc. In my career I have seen thousands of people disabled by the long term toll their careers took on their bodies. The taxpayers, BTW, are paying for their nursing home placements. Back in my days of working in a produce warehouse as a lumper, every Friday two of us would carry 36,000 pounds of bananas out of the semi trailer in their boxes, stack 'em on pallets, pull them across the warehouse into the storage rooms (bananas are kept relatively warm; if chilled they won't ripen properly) with a manual pallet jack. Even though I was 22 and strong as an ox in those days, I was damned sore after that. Watermelons were worse, they weren't in boxes. Back in those days I could toss a 100 lb bag of spuds on my shoulder and lump it upstairs, with 50 bag of onions I could run upstairs. Now I probably couldn't get the bag of spuds up off the floor. I completed an apprenticeship to be a "Machinist", although I subsequently went to an engineering school, but I can remember as early as the mid-late 1960's that very little work for a qualified machinist existed. One or maybe two in a big shop and the rest were machine operators. My apprenticeship, as such, was as a glazier which was my father's trade. I did that for 7 years during high school and college. But even in more technical fields like medicine, nursing, etc., there is a period of apprenticeship by another name. I know that The Donald talked about apprenticeships, and increasing employment, and increasing minimum salaries, and reducing costs, and, and, but I haven't seen much progress being made. Well, he's made plenty of progress in being a douchebag. Now there is an exercise in logic. (1) Increase wages which certainly contributes to higher sales prices, and (2) reduce costs? -- Cheers, One of the many knots in capitalism. It's a system we're dedicated to but doesn't really work that well- even though it works better than all the alternatives tried thus far. Yup, that paraphrases Winston Churchill, who actually said " Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." But still, the basic problem with democracy is the politician gets up and says, "Vote for me." The audience says, "Why?" As for capitalism.... what else is there? Good question. Russia and China's attempts at communism didn't pan out. But capitalism depends on inflation to provide the illusion of growth, as well as a constantly growing population to provide an expanding market. If the population stops growing, the economy collapses. However, we've reached a point where further population growth is rapidly becoming unsustainable. The massive increase in wealth disparity over the past 50 years is also unsustainable- top heavy structures do not stand long. Those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. Buckle up for deja vu! I performed heavy labor just long enough to understand that such things could kill a man early and young. But John tells us that as a 7 year old he did them. Right. The first automations that were developed were to PREVENT hard manual labor. |
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