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  #141  
Old September 8th 17, 08:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
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On 9/8/2017 10:22 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/7/2017 11:27 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 11:16:11 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

OTOH, I also don't see any sense in corporation CEOs
getting paid hundreds of
times what their professional workers get paid, or paying
a lower percentage of
their income in taxes. Other country's corporations seem
to thrive with much smaller relative pay scales for CEOs.


What would be an equitable wage for a chap managing a
world wide
business with 11,600 stores in 28 countries, employing 2.3
million
people with annual revenues of 480 billion dollars and a
net income of
14.69 billion?


Well, as a very rough guess, I'd limit it to something like
20 times what an average employee earns. Or perhaps $500k
per year.

After all, what's an equitable wage for the president of the
most powerful country on earth? Seems $400,000 is enough to
get lots of serious applicants, and I've not seen evidence
that a pay raise would generate any better quality
applications.

Besides, what does a person do with more than $500,000 per
year? Does it make him happier? Does it generate any good
for society? I very much doubt it.

I also doubt it generates any good for a corporation's
investors. From what I can tell, CEO pay does not correlate
well with corporation performance.

This guy still makes too much, in my opinion; but he makes
less than a great many CEOs of large corporations, while
outperforming them.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-sw...85D0R920120614


"what does a person do with more than $500,000 per year? "

Easy question!
http://www.spacex.com/

At any rate if the Board and/or shareholders think they can
get same or better returns with less compensation they may
well hire someone else. And they are free to do so on any
given day!

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Ads
  #142  
Old September 8th 17, 08:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Jobst

On 9/8/2017 11:52 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 9:27:41 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/7/2017 3:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 11:31:46 AM UTC-7, wrote:

I know a guy who took a day-trading class and with almost nothing to invest now makes a steady income about the same as the best wage I ever made and in only a year. Would you consider this guy a thief?

No, he's a day trader. Why don't you take a day trading class? You can become the RBT fund manager.


FWIW, if there's to be a RBT investment fund, I want a fund manager who
doesn't complain about his memory problems and doesn't complain about
how his investments have crashed.


Meh. https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2013/04/m...-people-study/

-- Jay Beattie.


Good system!
For many years Wall Street Journal ranked darts thrown at
the paper stock listings from across a room against the top
rated brokerages' recommendations each month.

The darts mostly won. And no fees!

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #143  
Old September 8th 17, 09:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Jobst

On 9/8/2017 3:46 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2017 11:52 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 9:27:41 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/7/2017 3:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 11:31:46 AM UTC-7,
wrote:

I know a guy who took a day-trading class and with almost nothing
to invest now makes a steady income about the same as the best wage
I ever made and in only a year. Would you consider this guy a thief?

No, he's a day trader. Why don't you take a day trading class? You
can become the RBT fund manager.

FWIW, if there's to be a RBT investment fund, I want a fund manager who
doesn't complain about his memory problems and doesn't complain about
how his investments have crashed.


Meh.
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2013/04/m...-people-study/


-- Jay Beattie.


Good system!
For many years Wall Street Journal ranked darts thrown at the paper
stock listings from across a room against the top rated brokerages'
recommendations each month.

The darts mostly won. And no fees!


Or there are index funds - in effect, just buy a bit of everything and
count on the fact that things generally go up.

Given all this, I'm amazed that Tom was able to get a big stock gift yet
end up complaining about his investments.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #144  
Old September 8th 17, 10:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Jobst

On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 9:26:36 AM UTC-7, Doug Landau wrote:
On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 5:26:51 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/7/2017 10:05 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 07:31:26 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 5:47:34 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 6 Sep 2017 12:00:14 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 1:05:25 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

Destructive? Exercise? Swinging a pick for eight hours a day. Or doing
any other manual labour. How so?

Well, it's plain that you've never worked.

Quite the contrary. I grew up on a small New England farm where most
of the work was done by hand. Ditches for water pipes were 6 feet deep
to get below the frost line, hay for the animals was cut with a mowing
machine and then tedded, loaded on wagons and mowed away by hand.

I did "chores" commensurate with my size from the time I was 6 or 7
years old. Shoot, everybody did. Didn't they?

Yup, that paraphrases Winston Churchill, who actually said " Indeed it
has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except
for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

But still, the basic problem with democracy is the politician gets up
and says, "Vote for me." The audience says, "Why?"

As for capitalism.... what else is there?

There is socialism as described by Marx and Lenin.

Which doesn't work. China's current prosperity is largely due to a
disabling of the original state run economy and now incorporates a
modified capitalistic system.

John, enough of your bull****. I know what happens to people who swing picks 8 hours a day. The human body is not designed for that sort of thing and you end up like my brother with a degraded bone structure in your back and legs like my brother.


I can comment on your relatives but I've know a great many people that
worked their entire life without the problems you describe. I had a
great uncle that had been a fireman on ships, shoveling coal by hand,
and was in his late 60's or early 70's when he worked a while for my
father. I watched him mow around a 2 acre field with a hand scythe -
that is about 400 yards a lap. He'd keep a bottle of water in one
corner and stop for a drink when he got reached that corner.

My grandfather raised chickens, about 3,000 of them usually, with no
help at all. He heated the house with wood for years and spent every
September cutting wood with an axe and a hand saw and hauling it home
and stacking it in the "wood house".

I could go on but why bother, it was common when I was a young fellow
to see people work. I might add that the great uncle died at 86, my
grandfather at 87.

You believe that people can work like that even though with the reduction of such labor the human lifespan has increased by 50%.

Yup it sure has. Taking people from the earliest days in the U.S.
who's lives were well documented we have Thomas Jefferson, 83 when he
died, John Adams was 90, George Washington was a young 67 - but he
died due to blood loss from the then popular medical procedure of
bloodletting, George Wythe was 80, Paul Revere was 83 and Ben Franklin
was 84.

Current U.S. male life expectancy seems to be 79.3 and one article
states that it is decreasing.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/22/us-l...o-by-2030.html

Essentially it says that "Notable among poor-performing countries is
the USA, whose life expectancy at birth is already lower than most
other high-income countries, and is projected to fall further behind
such that its 2030 life expectancy at birth might be similar to the
Czech".

It's pretty plain that dementia or whatever is taking it's toll on you. Tell me again how the military lied to me.

If dementia has overtaken me it apparently has overtaken the majority
of the world's data gathering agencies also.


I can see where there would be differences from one job to
another[1] but I was never more fit than as the 'low man' on
a steel & concrete crew. There were no obese men on that
crew of about 40 guys including the foreman. Carrying steel,
setting up and breaking down forms etc is very good
exercise. Tying steel standing all day is not. The days we
ran steel up, with one man on each floor hand-over-hand to
the next level, was very hard work but that was only once a
week.

[1]Hod carriers (masons' assistants) had IMHO the worst job
but that, like much of the work done back then, is now
mechanized.


:-) :-) :-) I was a mason's assistant for a year. I never used a hod tho and rarely dealt with stairs. I mostly used a wheelbarrow on the driveways, and carried buckets of mud up 2-3 levels of scaffolding to the tops of chimneys

I did get the experience Tim describes - tossing 100-Lb sacks on my shoulder. It was fun. Except for the poof of cement dust in your face. I did a little masonry project 5 yrs ago (am 52) and threw one more sack on my shoulder. It was no longer fun.


It is absolutely amazing how a mason can stucco a house so rapidly and with so little apparent effort.
  #145  
Old September 8th 17, 10:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Jobst

On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 12:47:28 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2017 11:52 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 9:27:41 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/7/2017 3:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 11:31:46 AM UTC-7, wrote:

I know a guy who took a day-trading class and with almost nothing to invest now makes a steady income about the same as the best wage I ever made and in only a year. Would you consider this guy a thief?

No, he's a day trader. Why don't you take a day trading class? You can become the RBT fund manager.

FWIW, if there's to be a RBT investment fund, I want a fund manager who
doesn't complain about his memory problems and doesn't complain about
how his investments have crashed.


Meh. https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2013/04/m...-people-study/

-- Jay Beattie.


Good system!
For many years Wall Street Journal ranked darts thrown at
the paper stock listings from across a room against the top
rated brokerages' recommendations each month.

The darts mostly won. And no fees!


This is the sort of BS they try to sell off to the general public. I complained to my broker that I wasn't making enough profit on my investments and was going to have to change brokers and the next month I made three times the profits. But the investments he made didn't pay the same brokerage rate as the investments he had been making.

People don't become stock millionaires by accident.
  #146  
Old September 9th 17, 03:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Jobst

On 9/8/2017 3:34 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2017 10:22 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/7/2017 11:27 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 11:16:11 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

OTOH, I also don't see any sense in corporation CEOs
getting paid hundreds of
times what their professional workers get paid, or paying
a lower percentage of
their income in taxes.Â* Other country's corporations seem
to thrive with much smaller relative pay scales for CEOs.


What would be an equitable wage for a chap managing a
world wide
business with 11,600 stores in 28 countries, employing 2.3
million
people with annual revenues of 480 billion dollars and a
net income of
14.69 billion?


Well, as a very rough guess, I'd limit it to something like
20 times what an average employee earns. Or perhaps $500k
per year.

After all, what's an equitable wage for the president of the
most powerful country on earth? Seems $400,000 is enough to
get lots of serious applicants, and I've not seen evidence
that a pay raise would generate any better quality
applications.

Besides, what does a person do with more than $500,000 per
year? Does it make him happier? Does it generate any good
for society? I very much doubt it.

I also doubt it generates any good for a corporation's
investors.Â* From what I can tell, CEO pay does not correlate
well with corporation performance.

This guy still makes too much, in my opinion; but he makes
less than a great many CEOs of large corporations, while
outperforming them.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-sw...85D0R920120614



"what does a person do with more than $500,000 per year? "

Easy question!
http://www.spacex.com/


If that's the kind of stuff most super-millionaire CEOs did with their
excess money, I'd feel better about CEO salaries. But Elon Musk is
famous specifically because he's so unusual.

A much more common strategy for those guys is to build an ostentatious
mansion outside their home town, then build another in Florida, yet
another in Colorado, perhaps one more in Scotland for the golf, etc. Buy
an executive jet to go between the mansions, a stable of luxury cars, a
monster yacht to take buddies on cruises, buy off two ex-wives, buy the
current wife emeralds and haute couture wardrobes, etc. Oh, and buy at
least one senator and three congressmen.

At any rate if the Board and/or shareholders think they can get same or
better returns with less compensation they may well hire someone else.
And they are free to do so on any given day!


The board is free to do so, but the board is in on the game. The
shareholders may have different wishes entirely, and there have been
some attempts at shareholder revolts; but in practice its a very
difficult undertaking, given that the board probably holds a large
percentage of the stock.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #148  
Old September 9th 17, 06:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Jobst

On Fri, 08 Sep 2017 07:26:26 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 9/7/2017 10:05 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 07:31:26 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 5:47:34 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 6 Sep 2017 12:00:14 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 1:05:25 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

Destructive? Exercise? Swinging a pick for eight hours a day. Or doing
any other manual labour. How so?

Well, it's plain that you've never worked.

Quite the contrary. I grew up on a small New England farm where most
of the work was done by hand. Ditches for water pipes were 6 feet deep
to get below the frost line, hay for the animals was cut with a mowing
machine and then tedded, loaded on wagons and mowed away by hand.

I did "chores" commensurate with my size from the time I was 6 or 7
years old. Shoot, everybody did. Didn't they?

Yup, that paraphrases Winston Churchill, who actually said " Indeed it
has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except
for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

But still, the basic problem with democracy is the politician gets up
and says, "Vote for me." The audience says, "Why?"

As for capitalism.... what else is there?

There is socialism as described by Marx and Lenin.

Which doesn't work. China's current prosperity is largely due to a
disabling of the original state run economy and now incorporates a
modified capitalistic system.

John, enough of your bull****. I know what happens to people who swing picks 8 hours a day. The human body is not designed for that sort of thing and you end up like my brother with a degraded bone structure in your back and legs like my brother.


I can comment on your relatives but I've know a great many people that
worked their entire life without the problems you describe. I had a
great uncle that had been a fireman on ships, shoveling coal by hand,
and was in his late 60's or early 70's when he worked a while for my
father. I watched him mow around a 2 acre field with a hand scythe -
that is about 400 yards a lap. He'd keep a bottle of water in one
corner and stop for a drink when he got reached that corner.

My grandfather raised chickens, about 3,000 of them usually, with no
help at all. He heated the house with wood for years and spent every
September cutting wood with an axe and a hand saw and hauling it home
and stacking it in the "wood house".

I could go on but why bother, it was common when I was a young fellow
to see people work. I might add that the great uncle died at 86, my
grandfather at 87.

You believe that people can work like that even though with the reduction of such labor the human lifespan has increased by 50%.


Yup it sure has. Taking people from the earliest days in the U.S.
who's lives were well documented we have Thomas Jefferson, 83 when he
died, John Adams was 90, George Washington was a young 67 - but he
died due to blood loss from the then popular medical procedure of
bloodletting, George Wythe was 80, Paul Revere was 83 and Ben Franklin
was 84.

Current U.S. male life expectancy seems to be 79.3 and one article
states that it is decreasing.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/22/us-l...o-by-2030.html

Essentially it says that "Notable among poor-performing countries is
the USA, whose life expectancy at birth is already lower than most
other high-income countries, and is projected to fall further behind
such that its 2030 life expectancy at birth might be similar to the
Czech".

It's pretty plain that dementia or whatever is taking it's toll on you. Tell me again how the military lied to me.


If dementia has overtaken me it apparently has overtaken the majority
of the world's data gathering agencies also.


I can see where there would be differences from one job to
another[1] but I was never more fit than as the 'low man' on
a steel & concrete crew. There were no obese men on that
crew of about 40 guys including the foreman. Carrying steel,
setting up and breaking down forms etc is very good
exercise. Tying steel standing all day is not. The days we
ran steel up, with one man on each floor hand-over-hand to
the next level, was very hard work but that was only once a
week.

[1]Hod carriers (masons' assistants) had IMHO the worst job
but that, like much of the work done back then, is now
mechanized.


They are building yet another "condominium" on the street next to the
one I live on and they carry nothing up the four stories. they have
commercial power to the site and have a small electric motor powered
hoist.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #149  
Old September 9th 17, 06:11 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Jobst

On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 09:03:44 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau
wrote:

On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 5:27:11 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 23:24:15 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau
wrote:


As for wealth disparity, I can remember when a doctor made a house
call.... for $2.00 :-) To be honest I never paid a doctor $2.00 to
make a house call but I remember being sick and the doctor coming and
my folks talking about $2.00. Granted, I was just a kid but my salary
was eleven cents a week for milking the cow six evenings a week. And
slopping two hogs.

But in a more serious vein, what is "wealth disparity"? Is it that you
make more money then I do? I'm fairly sure that you do as you seem to
be still working and I'm retired. Should I be rushing around waving my
arms in the air shouting Unfair! Unfair!

The concept that a bloke who starts a business selling bootleg records
out of the trunk of his car, for example, is not entitled to
everything he can make, or the guy, not even a collage graduate, that
starts up a little two man business that grows because they can
provide a service, is not entitled to his earnings, seems wrong to me.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Paradise. We used to -dream- of digging ditches ... would've been looxury to oos.

As for wealth disparity, I can remember when a doctor made a house
call.... for $2.00 :-)

We had to work at mill 14 hours/day for 8p/month!

My father used to pay someone to mow the field and the
rest of the haying was done by hand.
When OUR dad got home he'd beat us around the head with a broken bot'l!

S.CNR.

So much for sarcasm.

But I doubt it was 8p/month as in mid-1860s manual laborers in London
received 3s. 9d. for a 10-hour day - 6 day week. An engineer I suspect
that the U.S. term would be "mechanic"' made 7/6 (= ?110 pounds/year).
A bit earlier a mill worker (fabric) was paid 33/8 per week in 1833.

And, what you don't seem to mention was the cost of living in the same
period.

In about 1898 my grandfather and his wife "moved to town" and he
worked for a dollar a day as a carpenter. I once asked my grandmother
how they could have gotten along on a dollar a day (I was making 50
cents an hour after school and weekends) and she said, that it wasn't
a bad wage when bread cost 3 cents a loaf.

Yeah but try telling that to the young people of today. Will they believe you? Nooooooooooo


The point was that simply listing a number and saying. "Wow! A lot" or
"Yuck! So little" is meaningless, as it is only "lot" or "little"
relative to costs.

My Grandfather's dollar a day wasn't bad wages as he could buy 33
loaves of bread with it. In a similar discussion someone said that in
his part of California bread was 6 dollars a loaf so a modern salary
to equal my grandfather's wages' buying power might be $199.00, or
about $25/hour.



How about his phone bill, how much was that?


Why in the world would one want a telephone? After all you'll see
everything when you are downtown Saturday for the shopping.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #150  
Old September 9th 17, 06:51 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Jobst

On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 07:55:58 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 8:05:47 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 07:31:26 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 5:47:34 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 6 Sep 2017 12:00:14 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 1:05:25 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

Destructive? Exercise? Swinging a pick for eight hours a day. Or doing
any other manual labour. How so?

Well, it's plain that you've never worked.

Quite the contrary. I grew up on a small New England farm where most
of the work was done by hand. Ditches for water pipes were 6 feet deep
to get below the frost line, hay for the animals was cut with a mowing
machine and then tedded, loaded on wagons and mowed away by hand.

I did "chores" commensurate with my size from the time I was 6 or 7
years old. Shoot, everybody did. Didn't they?

Yup, that paraphrases Winston Churchill, who actually said " Indeed it
has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except
for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

But still, the basic problem with democracy is the politician gets up
and says, "Vote for me." The audience says, "Why?"

As for capitalism.... what else is there?

There is socialism as described by Marx and Lenin.

Which doesn't work. China's current prosperity is largely due to a
disabling of the original state run economy and now incorporates a
modified capitalistic system.

John, enough of your bull****. I know what happens to people who swing picks 8 hours a day. The human body is not designed for that sort of thing and you end up like my brother with a degraded bone structure in your back and legs like my brother.


I can comment on your relatives but I've know a great many people that
worked their entire life without the problems you describe. I had a
great uncle that had been a fireman on ships, shoveling coal by hand,
and was in his late 60's or early 70's when he worked a while for my
father. I watched him mow around a 2 acre field with a hand scythe -
that is about 400 yards a lap. He'd keep a bottle of water in one
corner and stop for a drink when he got reached that corner.

My grandfather raised chickens, about 3,000 of them usually, with no
help at all. He heated the house with wood for years and spent every
September cutting wood with an axe and a hand saw and hauling it home
and stacking it in the "wood house".

I could go on but why bother, it was common when I was a young fellow
to see people work. I might add that the great uncle died at 86, my
grandfather at 87.

You believe that people can work like that even though with the reduction of such labor the human lifespan has increased by 50%.


Yup it sure has. Taking people from the earliest days in the U.S.
who's lives were well documented we have Thomas Jefferson, 83 when he
died, John Adams was 90, George Washington was a young 67 - but he
died due to blood loss from the then popular medical procedure of
bloodletting, George Wythe was 80, Paul Revere was 83 and Ben Franklin
was 84.

Current U.S. male life expectancy seems to be 79.3 and one article
states that it is decreasing.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/22/us-l...o-by-2030.html

Essentially it says that "Notable among poor-performing countries is
the USA, whose life expectancy at birth is already lower than most
other high-income countries, and is projected to fall further behind
such that its 2030 life expectancy at birth might be similar to the
Czech".

It's pretty plain that dementia or whatever is taking it's toll on you. Tell me again how the military lied to me.


If dementia has overtaken me it apparently has overtaken the majority
of the world's data gathering agencies also.


John - you continue to pretend that somehow the USA should have a lifespan the equal of the Norway or Switzerland when those countries are racially fixed and the USA has people coming in from all over the world. "From birth" is a lie. They simply take the age at death and the number of births and calculate a lifespan that has little to nothing to do with the actual lifespan of an American citizen born and bred.


So what? Countries that openly state that they are racially mixed such
as Singapore, Australia, Canada, the U.K. and even Israel, all have
life expectancies longer than the U.S. in most cases substantially
longer.

As for calculating the life expectancy again you are wrong. They take
a period and count the death age for members born during that period.

Example:

On July 2015, the Population Division of the United Nations Department
of Economic and Social Affairs (UN DESA), released World Population
Prospects, and state that:

"The following table shows the life expectancy at birth for the period
2010 to 2015."

But that dementia appears to serve you well for using statistics that are meaningless but which you can twist to your own requirements.


Name calling doesn't disguise the more and more obvious fact that you
simply don't know what you are talking about.
--
Cheers,

John B.

 




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