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#91
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MTB disc brake caused wild fire
On 4/2/2018 1:37 PM, jbeattie wrote:
If you threw me back on my 1976 custom SP racing bike with 52/42 13-21 5sp and a slammed Cinelli stem, I would be demonstrably unhappy -- and walking a lot. Yeah, decrepitude is hell. You're still a little kid. You just wait. -- - Frank Krygowski |
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#93
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MTB disc brake caused wild fire
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 8:35:32 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 9:21:35 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-02 08:57, wrote: On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 4:36:21 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote: Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote: sms wrote: On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote: Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding. Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical disc brakes. Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that weather eats, etc. All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable the others are hydraulic. The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up you feed them pads which is very easy. Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles commuting disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of performance and maintenance. In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between the two, my gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared to my Full suspension MTB. "Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you really talking about overall mechanical advantage - that is, lever force vs. braking force? Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by traction and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why getting that amount of force from a one pound lever force is better than getting it from a two pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all day. Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a fairly green Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight, why do you think dropper posts are in use? You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video here a while ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve during a Tour de France. The majority of riders who crashed did not scoot behind the saddle for max braking action. These were all professional riders yet they clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has. Joerg telling pro road riders how to brake. That will be the day. Yes, I do know better braking techniques than many of those riders did and would have likely either not crashed or not as hard. I found the video again, it wasn't the Tour de France but a race in Utah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRM3bFXlyNk If you do not know what the first rider who crashed and some others did wrong I suggest you refrain from MTB riding in the mountains. You are not a better rider than the four-time Irish national road champ and pro-continental cyclist. He made a split second error on the queen stage of a very difficult race. He was chasing to get back on and was confused by the support cars: He remembers rounding the second last bend before his crash. Then things took a dramatic turn for the worse. “I just remember coming around that corner, it was one of the first corners of the climb on the downhill side and there was just a line of traffic up ahead. “Straight away I saw all the cars and where they were in the road but the traffic threw me onto the wrong side of the road. “So my line was totally messed up around the corner…there was no chance of me making it so I was just looking for an exit plan, really. “I was headed for the bushes but this car just turned right in front of me. “I thought he was going to stop but he just drove around the corner, I hit it and that’s the last thing I remember.” Brammeier was knocked out briefly and doesn’t remember anything until he arrived in hospital “which is probably a good thing”. “I think at that point, I was out of it, I didn’t really feel any pain or anything. I was just pretty spaced out,” he said of that first night. “When I had my first diagnosis at the hospital I was like ‘****, this is really bad’.” He supposedly felt fine, but I bet plenty of the chasing riders were wiped out. Guardsman is above 9,500, and the descent comes after a grueling climb. I've been on that stretch of Guardsman, and that turn is even steeper and tighter than it appears on video. My son has ridden it many times on caliper brakes and CF rims -- fast, no discs. If you pick a wrong line, you're toast -- no matter how far you scoot back on your seat, and heavy braking even with your weight back will get you sliding sideways down the bank of the turn. And the road has that dusty slough on it. -- Jay Beattie. Ah that explains a lot. Lou |
#94
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MTB disc brake caused wild fire
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 8:40:17 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 10:43:12 AM UTC-7, wrote: On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 6:21:35 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-02 08:57, wrote: On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 4:36:21 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote: Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote: sms wrote: On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote: Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding. Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical disc brakes. Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that weather eats, etc. All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable the others are hydraulic. The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up you feed them pads which is very easy. Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles commuting disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of performance and maintenance. In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between the two, my gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared to my Full suspension MTB. "Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you really talking about overall mechanical advantage - that is, lever force vs. braking force? Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by traction and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why getting that amount of force from a one pound lever force is better than getting it from a two pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all day. Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a fairly green Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight, why do you think dropper posts are in use? You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video here a while ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve during a Tour de France. The majority of riders who crashed did not scoot behind the saddle for max braking action. These were all professional riders yet they clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has. Joerg telling pro road riders how to brake. That will be the day. Yes, I do know better braking techniques than many of those riders did and would have likely either not crashed or not as hard. I found the video again, it wasn't the Tour de France but a race in Utah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRM3bFXlyNk If you do not know what the first rider who crashed and some others did wrong I suggest you refrain from MTB riding in the mountains. The first rider who crashed rode the wrong line with a ridiculous high speed. Even with his ass on the rear wheel would not prevent that crash. Further there are some morons on the motor and in cars who stopped on a really stupid spot. Amateurs. Was this a pro race? Lou Yes, Tour of Utah. My son was on the tour crew the year after that crash.. 2018 teams: https://www.tourofutah.com/race/teams No QuickStep and Niki Terpstra. You Netherlanders are on fire! -- Jay Beattie. Yeah, don't forget Anna van den Breggen. She won the ladies edition of the Ronde van Vlaanderen. I rode some of those hills. Man, my legs hurt just watching them lying on the couch after my Sunday morning club ride. Cobble stones are not my cup of tea. Lou |
#95
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MTB disc brake caused wild fire
On 3/31/2018 7:23 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-30 09:22, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/30/2018 10:27 AM, Joerg wrote: Disc brakes afford a substantial increase in safety. I tend to adopt things that increase safety, no matter where. I doubt that. There are literally thousands of things a person could possibly do to increase their "safety." Do you wear your bike helmet when walking in the city, or when driving your car? Do you have six-foot high flippy flags on your bikes? I found an orange phone line indicator flag on a wire in the road yesterday. Since the wire could puncture a tire I picked it up. I had a flippy flag! ********************** ... Do you always wear elbow and knee pads? Have you thrown away all sharp knives in your home? Did you remove the stairs in your home and install elevators? There is a difference between reasonable effort and paranoia. Again: There are always detriments as well as benefits. Yes, the marketers and those proselytizing for their own choices go to great length to overstate dangers and overstate benefits. Others are less easily duped. I'll put the latest "visibility" study in a separate thread. The visibility issue I have solved years ago. MagicShine clones and brig I think he meant to write visibility "study" rather than "visibility" study. |
#96
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MTB disc brake caused wild fire
On 3/29/2018 2:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote: On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote: Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding. Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical disc brakes. Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that weather eats, etc. The pads wear, as with hydraulic brakes, but the adjustments are not "constant." Hydraulics are just too much fuss to maintain. No need for more bicycle maintenance routines with bleeding brakes. Mechanical brakes just work. |
#97
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MTB disc brake caused wild fire
On 4/2/2018 1:29 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/2/2018 1:11 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-02 09:45, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/2/2018 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote: Frank Krygowski wrote: -snippity snip- I will never go back to rotors smaller than 8". Yeah, mine are closer to 25". +1 -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#98
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MTB disc brake caused wild fire
On 2018-04-02 11:34, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/2/2018 1:51 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-02 10:28, Frank Krygowski wrote: The first rider who crashed enters the video at 0:20 and is already sliding sideways. Put you thinking cap on and ponder the reasons. You don't know the reasons! You don't know what he was dealing with just before he enters the frame! Pretending all would be cured by a different riding posture is nonsense. Yes, he was too fast which was his first mistake... Note the riders at 0:27 and 0:28 did fine sitting on their saddles. Sure, because they approached the curve very slowly, as I would have. Well, there you have it! The Monday morning quarterback would have raced much more slowly! Gosh, why don't more racers think of that simple strategy? ;-) You obviously do not understand it so I'll end the discussion here since it's fruitless. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#99
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MTB disc brake caused wild fire
On 2018-04-02 11:35, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 9:21:35 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-02 08:57, wrote: On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 4:36:21 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote: On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote: Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote: sms wrote: On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote: Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding. Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical disc brakes. Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that weather eats, etc. All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable the others are hydraulic. The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up you feed them pads which is very easy. Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles commuting disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of performance and maintenance. In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between the two, my gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared to my Full suspension MTB. "Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you really talking about overall mechanical advantage - that is, lever force vs. braking force? Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by traction and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why getting that amount of force from a one pound lever force is better than getting it from a two pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all day. Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a fairly green Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight, why do you think dropper posts are in use? You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video here a while ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve during a Tour de France. The majority of riders who crashed did not scoot behind the saddle for max braking action. These were all professional riders yet they clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has. Joerg telling pro road riders how to brake. That will be the day. Yes, I do know better braking techniques than many of those riders did and would have likely either not crashed or not as hard. I found the video again, it wasn't the Tour de France but a race in Utah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRM3bFXlyNk If you do not know what the first rider who crashed and some others did wrong I suggest you refrain from MTB riding in the mountains. You are not a better rider than the four-time Irish national road champ and pro-continental cyclist. In terms of power and endurance, or course not. Never. In terms of MTB rider instinct I am rather sure I would. Whenever I see a situation that could go wrong I am behind the saddle. Even if the situation just feels iffy. It is not just the braking phase where he should have gone behind the saddle, it is also the moment of impact. He just goes into the rear left side of the car "as is". I had a similar situation with a VW Polo driver blowing a stop sign, so close that there was no way to stop or slow down much. I instinctively slid behind the handlebar and turned a bit. This resulted in not having an uncontrolled exit from the bike and flying through the air like this rider. Instead, it resulted in my right shoulder blade and side absorbing the brunt of the impact. My upper body smashed the driver side door to the point where the driver could no longer open it from inside but I essentially remained on the remains of my bike (which was pretzeled), lots of bruises but nothing serious. I was able to help the elderly driver get out. He made a split second error on the queen stage of a very difficult race. He was chasing to get back on and was confused by the support cars: He remembers rounding the second last bend before his crash. Then things took a dramatic turn for the worse. “I just remember coming around that corner, it was one of the first corners of the climb on the downhill side and there was just a line of traffic up ahead. This would have been a great time to apply the brakes. Hard. “Straight away I saw all the cars and where they were in the road but the traffic threw me onto the wrong side of the road. “So my line was totally messed up around the corner…there was no chance of me making it so I was just looking for an exit plan, really. “I was headed for the bushes but this car just turned right in front of me. “I thought he was going to stop but he just drove around the corner, I hit it and that’s the last thing I remember.” Brammeier was knocked out briefly and doesn’t remember anything until he arrived in hospital “which is probably a good thing”. “I think at that point, I was out of it, I didn’t really feel any pain or anything. I was just pretty spaced out,” he said of that first night. “When I had my first diagnosis at the hospital I was like ‘****, this is really bad’.” He supposedly felt fine, but I bet plenty of the chasing riders were wiped out. Guardsman is above 9,500, and the descent comes after a grueling climb. That altitude and "full throttle mode" can probably slow someone's reaction. However, I was surprised that many riders did not take instinctive countermeasures at all. I've been on that stretch of Guardsman, and that turn is even steeper and tighter than it appears on video. My son has ridden it many times on caliper brakes and CF rims -- fast, no discs. If you pick a wrong line, you're toast -- no matter how far you scoot back on your seat, and heavy braking even with your weight back will get you sliding sideways down the bank of the turn. And the road has that dusty slough on it. Why did he not go behind the saddle and with his belly onto the seat? It would not have stopped the crash this late in the game but it would have improved the deceleration and reduced the force of impact into the car. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#100
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MTB disc brake caused wild fire
On 4/2/2018 5:23 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 11:35, jbeattie wrote: You are not a better rider than the four-time Irish national road champ and pro-continental cyclist. In terms of power and endurance, or course not. Never. In terms of MTB rider instinct I am rather sure I would. Wow. -- - Frank Krygowski |
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