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  #41  
Old March 11th 11, 08:35 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Dex
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Posts: 28
Default OUCH

On 11/03/2011 00:13, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 10/03/2011 02:57, Nuxx Bar wrote:
Cyclist hit head on by car, looks bloody painful:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvJBNiEVSug

Incidents like that are belittled by people like Jackson who go out
with their helmet cams looking for trouble.


Nail, hit, head.

What kind of tosser goes out with a ****ing camera on his bike?


Someone that has had too many close shaves from other road users,
otherwise it's his word against a car full of mates.
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  #42  
Old March 11th 11, 08:36 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Dex
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Posts: 28
Default OUCH

On 11/03/2011 07:08, Mrcheerful wrote:
Dex wrote:
On 11/03/2011 06:52, Mrcheerful wrote:
Dex wrote:
On 10/03/2011 09:34, Mrcheerful wrote:
Dex wrote:
On 10/03/2011 07:11, Mrcheerful wrote:
Nuxx Bar wrote:
Cyclist hit head on by car, looks bloody painful:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvJBNiEVSug

Incidents like that are belittled by people like Jackson who go
out with their helmet cams looking for trouble.

riding faster than the conditions dictate and probably no signal,
both cyclist and car at fault.



What a load of bull, the conditions couldn't have been much
better, bright clear day, dry road, nothing in front of him,
probably nothing behind.

The cyclist was already level with the mini-roundabout when the
car crossed the line, so no time for 'signalling', whatever
signal means your taking the second exit, and no time to slow
down. Why must you always lay part of the blame on the innocent party
just because they don't have an engine?

That motorist was either not paying attention and didn't see the
cyclist or somehow assumed the cyclist was taking the 1st exit
without bothering to signal.

The driver of the black car on the other side of the road pulled
out because he was expecting him to give way to the cyclist.

100% the drivers fault.

I come across similar circumstances almost every day, yet I don't
crash into them. People make mistakes, they misjudge which exit
you are taking, that is just part of using the roads.


Nope. There are THOUSANDS of accidents on our roads due to this type
of behaviour, how many of them got the blame for the other party
pulling out in front of them?


If the cyclist had been taking sufficient
care the crash would not have occurred,



remember your highway code for thinking and braking distances when
trying to stop.

I am glad to see you agree that the cyclist was travelling too fast
for the situation.



Oh right... Do you slow down to 10 mph when coming to a junction when
a car is waiting to pull out, just to be on the safe side?


Didn't think so.


We are talking about a vulnerable cyclist at a mini roundabout, he should
slow to whatever speed is the safe one for the situation. It is better to
be a little late in this world than early in the next. What is the point
of being injured unnecessarily?


Using that logic means making the max speed limit in towns 10mph. Or
better still, a man walking in front of you waving a red flag...

Everybody has a right to expect others to follow the rules, whether it's
being more observant and not pulling out when you're not supposed to, or
not stepping onto a fast busy road whilst listening to a MP3 player.

  #43  
Old March 11th 11, 08:56 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Mrcheerful[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,275
Default OUCH

Dex wrote:
On 11/03/2011 07:08, Mrcheerful wrote:
Dex wrote:
On 11/03/2011 06:52, Mrcheerful wrote:
Dex wrote:
On 10/03/2011 09:34, Mrcheerful wrote:
Dex wrote:
On 10/03/2011 07:11, Mrcheerful wrote:
Nuxx Bar wrote:
Cyclist hit head on by car, looks bloody painful:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvJBNiEVSug

Incidents like that are belittled by people like Jackson who
go out with their helmet cams looking for trouble.

riding faster than the conditions dictate and probably no
signal, both cyclist and car at fault.



What a load of bull, the conditions couldn't have been much
better, bright clear day, dry road, nothing in front of him,
probably nothing behind.

The cyclist was already level with the mini-roundabout when the
car crossed the line, so no time for 'signalling', whatever
signal means your taking the second exit, and no time to slow
down. Why must you always lay part of the blame on the innocent
party just because they don't have an engine?

That motorist was either not paying attention and didn't see the
cyclist or somehow assumed the cyclist was taking the 1st exit
without bothering to signal.

The driver of the black car on the other side of the road pulled
out because he was expecting him to give way to the cyclist.

100% the drivers fault.

I come across similar circumstances almost every day, yet I don't
crash into them. People make mistakes, they misjudge which exit
you are taking, that is just part of using the roads.


Nope. There are THOUSANDS of accidents on our roads due to this
type of behaviour, how many of them got the blame for the other
party pulling out in front of them?


If the cyclist had been taking sufficient
care the crash would not have occurred,



remember your highway code for thinking and braking distances when
trying to stop.

I am glad to see you agree that the cyclist was travelling too
fast for the situation.



Oh right... Do you slow down to 10 mph when coming to a junction
when a car is waiting to pull out, just to be on the safe side?


Didn't think so.


We are talking about a vulnerable cyclist at a mini roundabout, he
should slow to whatever speed is the safe one for the situation. It
is better to be a little late in this world than early in the next. What
is the point of being injured unnecessarily?


Using that logic means making the max speed limit in towns 10mph. Or
better still, a man walking in front of you waving a red flag...

Everybody has a right to expect others to follow the rules, whether
it's being more observant and not pulling out when you're not
supposed to, or not stepping onto a fast busy road whilst listening
to a MP3 player.


everyone has a duty to protect themselves and others.


  #44  
Old March 11th 11, 09:15 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Dex
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 28
Default OUCH

On 11/03/2011 07:56, Mrcheerful wrote:
Dex wrote:
On 11/03/2011 07:08, Mrcheerful wrote:
Dex wrote:
On 11/03/2011 06:52, Mrcheerful wrote:
Dex wrote:
On 10/03/2011 09:34, Mrcheerful wrote:
Dex wrote:
On 10/03/2011 07:11, Mrcheerful wrote:
Nuxx Bar wrote:
Cyclist hit head on by car, looks bloody painful:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvJBNiEVSug

Incidents like that are belittled by people like Jackson who
go out with their helmet cams looking for trouble.

riding faster than the conditions dictate and probably no
signal, both cyclist and car at fault.



What a load of bull, the conditions couldn't have been much
better, bright clear day, dry road, nothing in front of him,
probably nothing behind.

The cyclist was already level with the mini-roundabout when the
car crossed the line, so no time for 'signalling', whatever
signal means your taking the second exit, and no time to slow
down. Why must you always lay part of the blame on the innocent
party just because they don't have an engine?

That motorist was either not paying attention and didn't see the
cyclist or somehow assumed the cyclist was taking the 1st exit
without bothering to signal.

The driver of the black car on the other side of the road pulled
out because he was expecting him to give way to the cyclist.

100% the drivers fault.

I come across similar circumstances almost every day, yet I don't
crash into them. People make mistakes, they misjudge which exit
you are taking, that is just part of using the roads.


Nope. There are THOUSANDS of accidents on our roads due to this
type of behaviour, how many of them got the blame for the other
party pulling out in front of them?


If the cyclist had been taking sufficient
care the crash would not have occurred,



remember your highway code for thinking and braking distances when
trying to stop.

I am glad to see you agree that the cyclist was travelling too
fast for the situation.



Oh right... Do you slow down to 10 mph when coming to a junction
when a car is waiting to pull out, just to be on the safe side?


Didn't think so.

We are talking about a vulnerable cyclist at a mini roundabout, he
should slow to whatever speed is the safe one for the situation. It
is better to be a little late in this world than early in the next. What
is the point of being injured unnecessarily?


Using that logic means making the max speed limit in towns 10mph. Or
better still, a man walking in front of you waving a red flag...

Everybody has a right to expect others to follow the rules, whether
it's being more observant and not pulling out when you're not
supposed to, or not stepping onto a fast busy road whilst listening
to a MP3 player.


everyone has a duty to protect themselves and others.


Then go buy an assault rifle to protect your loved ones from burglars.

  #45  
Old March 11th 11, 09:30 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Mrcheerful[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,275
Default OUCH

Dex wrote:
On 11/03/2011 07:56, Mrcheerful wrote:
Dex wrote:
On 11/03/2011 07:08, Mrcheerful wrote:
Dex wrote:
On 11/03/2011 06:52, Mrcheerful wrote:
Dex wrote:
On 10/03/2011 09:34, Mrcheerful wrote:
Dex wrote:
On 10/03/2011 07:11, Mrcheerful wrote:
Nuxx Bar wrote:
Cyclist hit head on by car, looks bloody painful:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvJBNiEVSug

Incidents like that are belittled by people like Jackson who
go out with their helmet cams looking for trouble.

riding faster than the conditions dictate and probably no
signal, both cyclist and car at fault.



What a load of bull, the conditions couldn't have been much
better, bright clear day, dry road, nothing in front of him,
probably nothing behind.

The cyclist was already level with the mini-roundabout when
the car crossed the line, so no time for 'signalling',
whatever signal means your taking the second exit, and no
time to slow down. Why must you always lay part of the blame
on the innocent party just because they don't have an engine?

That motorist was either not paying attention and didn't see
the cyclist or somehow assumed the cyclist was taking the 1st
exit without bothering to signal.

The driver of the black car on the other side of the road
pulled out because he was expecting him to give way to the
cyclist. 100% the drivers fault.

I come across similar circumstances almost every day, yet I
don't crash into them. People make mistakes, they misjudge
which exit you are taking, that is just part of using the
roads.


Nope. There are THOUSANDS of accidents on our roads due to this
type of behaviour, how many of them got the blame for the other
party pulling out in front of them?


If the cyclist had been taking sufficient
care the crash would not have occurred,



remember your highway code for thinking and braking distances
when trying to stop.

I am glad to see you agree that the cyclist was travelling too
fast for the situation.



Oh right... Do you slow down to 10 mph when coming to a junction
when a car is waiting to pull out, just to be on the safe side?


Didn't think so.

We are talking about a vulnerable cyclist at a mini roundabout, he
should slow to whatever speed is the safe one for the situation. It is
better to be a little late in this world than early in the
next. What is the point of being injured unnecessarily?


Using that logic means making the max speed limit in towns 10mph. Or
better still, a man walking in front of you waving a red flag...

Everybody has a right to expect others to follow the rules, whether
it's being more observant and not pulling out when you're not
supposed to, or not stepping onto a fast busy road whilst listening
to a MP3 player.


everyone has a duty to protect themselves and others.


Then go buy an assault rifle to protect your loved ones from burglars.


I actually was referring to using the roads: we have a moral duty to
protect ourselves and others from harm. The cyclist could have avoided harm
by more careful riding. Almost every crash can be avoided if all parties
take sufficient care, it is when several take insufficient care at the same
point that the crashes happen. There is no point having an 'I am in the
right' attitude on the roads, especially if you are very vulnerable.

When approaching road hazards use the IPSGA system. The cyclist in the clip
did not get past I (information)


  #46  
Old March 11th 11, 09:35 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
JNugent[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,576
Default OUCH

On 10/03/2011 21:47, Tony Raven wrote:

wrote:


not at all. any competent road user would not have hit that car.


From the moment the front bumper of the car crosses the white line to the
moment of impact is 0.6s. The average fingertip reaction time is about
0.25s. Braking from 10mph at maximum for a bicycle (~0.5G) takes 0.45s.
That's 0.7s to stop under ideal conditions from travelling at a slow speed.
The accident was unavoidable.


I don't agree wioth that last comment. In those conditions, I would not have
been involved in a collision (cet. par.). It was avoidable and most people
would have been able to avoid it. Of course, a mindest of "It's my right of
way and he must NOT cross my path" woul not help.

Knowing how the situation can change quickly is part of the art of roadcraft
and part of the skill of proceeding safely.

Those who cannot grasp basic concepts with respect to using the road are more
or less riding for a fall. Sometimes literally. Being in the right hasn't
helped him at all.
  #47  
Old March 11th 11, 09:37 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
JNugent[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,576
Default OUCH

On 11/03/2011 06:46, Dex wrote:
On 10/03/2011 09:34, Mrcheerful wrote:
Dex wrote:
On 10/03/2011 07:11, Mrcheerful wrote:
Nuxx Bar wrote:
Cyclist hit head on by car, looks bloody painful:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvJBNiEVSug

Incidents like that are belittled by people like Jackson who go out
with their helmet cams looking for trouble.

riding faster than the conditions dictate and probably no signal,
both cyclist and car at fault.



What a load of bull, the conditions couldn't have been much better,
bright clear day, dry road, nothing in front of him, probably nothing
behind.

The cyclist was already level with the mini-roundabout when the car
crossed the line, so no time for 'signalling', whatever signal means
your taking the second exit, and no time to slow down.

Why must you always lay part of the blame on the innocent party just
because they don't have an engine?

That motorist was either not paying attention and didn't see the
cyclist or somehow assumed the cyclist was taking the 1st exit
without bothering to signal.

The driver of the black car on the other side of the road pulled out
because he was expecting him to give way to the cyclist.

100% the drivers fault.


I come across similar circumstances almost every day, yet I don't crash into
them. People make mistakes, they misjudge which exit you are taking, that
is just part of using the roads.



Nope. There are THOUSANDS of accidents on our roads due to this type of
behaviour, how many of them got the blame for the other party pulling out in
front of them?


If the cyclist had been taking sufficient
care the crash would not have occurred,



Rubbish, save the vid to your favourite media player and see how much time
the cyclist had to react once the driver crossed the line, then remember your
highway code for thinking and braking distances when trying to stop.



likewise if the car had been more
cautious the crash would not have happened, both parties are at fault.


By the looks of the comments the DRIVER was the one prosecuted, not both, and
the coppers had the evidence to prove it was only one parties fault, the
motorist.



It
is no good being 'in the right' if you crash into something, whether you are
in a car or not. But if you are very vulnerable like a cyclist then it
makes even more sense to ride very cautiously and with massive forethought.

As to the indication: the cyclist should have (may have) indicated right on
approach to the roundabout (and hopefully left before his exit, but that is
less likely) and I would have taken a further right road position and
proceeded cautiously till I had at least made eye contact with the car
driver and was certain it was staying put.



Look at the vid again, none of the cars seen were indicating, especially the
bloke pulling out in front of the cyclist, yet the cyclist was at fault for
not indicating?

Very twisted logic.


Let's hope you are never seen anywhere near a crash investigation.


Do be careful not to offer personal abuse when posting, dear chap.

Your attitude to it is decidedly odd. You see it where it doesn't exist and
fail to see it when you resort to it.
  #48  
Old March 11th 11, 09:39 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
JNugent[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,576
Default OUCH

On 11/03/2011 06:56, Mrcheerful wrote:
Tom Crispin wrote:
On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 21:41:20 -0000, "Mrcheerful"
wrote:

Tom Crispin wrote:
On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 20:23:11 +0000, JNugent
wrote:

On 10/03/2011 20:20, Mrcheerful wrote:

Steve Walker wrote:
Mrcheerful wrote:
Mr Pounder wrote:

Look, I like cyclists as much as you do.
The car pulled out in front of him.

yes it did, and a competent road user would not have collided
with it.

You would rather be provocative than accurate? Fair enough.

not at all. any competent road user would not have hit that car.

To be fair, that's imponderable. Maybe they would, maybe not.

I would still have expected a sufficiently cautious traveller to
make a serious attempt to slow, stop or change direction.

It appears to me that the cyclist did attempt to change direction,
but it was too little, too late.

The motorist slows down as he approaches the roundabout, then enters
the roundabout appearing to accelerate.

According to the cyclist, the motorist claimed he stopped at the
roundabout, but dazzled by sunlight moved cautiously forward. This
is evidently untrue, but from the cyclist's headcam it does look
like the driver is about to stop.

At the moment the driver enters the roundabout the cyclist
blasphemes, and tries to swerve to the right, but there is no time
to avoid the collision, even an instantaneous stop would not have
helped at that point.

so he was travelling too fast for the situation.


Evidently, yes. Had he been pootling at 5 mph he would have been able
to avoid the consequence of the incompetent driving of the culprit.

But that says little. It is not reasonable to expect cyclists to keep
to 5mph in case an unfit driver is approaching. The correct course of
action is to punish the unfit driver, and make him accept appropriate
remedial consequences.


If 5,mph is the right speed for a situation then use it. You can always
speed up later, it is after all a junction which is where most crashes
occur. More care by either party would have prevented this crash.
5mph, no injury sounds like an excellent result to me.


Quite so, although in the case cited, the cyclist could have proceeded more
safely at rather *more* than 5mph, but less then the 20+ mph (perhaps as much
as 30) it looks as though he was actually doing. IOW, 5mph is a bit of a
strawman.



  #49  
Old March 11th 11, 09:41 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
JNugent[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,576
Default OUCH

On 11/03/2011 07:04, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 06:56:00 -0000, "Mrcheerful"
wrote:

Tom Crispin wrote:
On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 21:41:20 -0000, "Mrcheerful"
wrote:

Tom Crispin wrote:
On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 20:23:11 +0000, JNugent
wrote:

On 10/03/2011 20:20, Mrcheerful wrote:

Steve Walker wrote:
Mrcheerful wrote:
Mr Pounder wrote:

Look, I like cyclists as much as you do.
The car pulled out in front of him.

yes it did, and a competent road user would not have collided
with it.

You would rather be provocative than accurate? Fair enough.

not at all. any competent road user would not have hit that car.

To be fair, that's imponderable. Maybe they would, maybe not.

I would still have expected a sufficiently cautious traveller to
make a serious attempt to slow, stop or change direction.

It appears to me that the cyclist did attempt to change direction,
but it was too little, too late.

The motorist slows down as he approaches the roundabout, then enters
the roundabout appearing to accelerate.

According to the cyclist, the motorist claimed he stopped at the
roundabout, but dazzled by sunlight moved cautiously forward. This
is evidently untrue, but from the cyclist's headcam it does look
like the driver is about to stop.

At the moment the driver enters the roundabout the cyclist
blasphemes, and tries to swerve to the right, but there is no time
to avoid the collision, even an instantaneous stop would not have
helped at that point.

so he was travelling too fast for the situation.

Evidently, yes. Had he been pootling at 5 mph he would have been able
to avoid the consequence of the incompetent driving of the culprit.

But that says little. It is not reasonable to expect cyclists to keep
to 5mph in case an unfit driver is approaching. The correct course of
action is to punish the unfit driver, and make him accept appropriate
remedial consequences.


If 5,mph is the right speed for a situation then use it. You can always
speed up later, it is after all a junction which is where most crashes
occur. More care by either party would have prevented this crash.
5mph, no injury sounds like an excellent result to me.


I'll remember that advice next time I come to a mini roundabout, or
pass a side road, or any other junction with some cheerful chappie
behind me.


"If 5mph is the right speed for a situation, then [travel at 5mph]" is
excellent advice.

It scales up (and down) and cannot be falsified.

The alternative advice (which you seem to prefer to give and receive) is: "If
n mph is the *wrong* speed for a situation, travel at n mph".
  #50  
Old March 11th 11, 09:44 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
JNugent[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,576
Default OUCH

On 11/03/2011 07:36, Dex wrote:
On 11/03/2011 07:08, Mrcheerful wrote:
Dex wrote:
On 11/03/2011 06:52, Mrcheerful wrote:
Dex wrote:
On 10/03/2011 09:34, Mrcheerful wrote:
Dex wrote:
On 10/03/2011 07:11, Mrcheerful wrote:
Nuxx Bar wrote:
Cyclist hit head on by car, looks bloody painful:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvJBNiEVSug

Incidents like that are belittled by people like Jackson who go
out with their helmet cams looking for trouble.

riding faster than the conditions dictate and probably no signal,
both cyclist and car at fault.



What a load of bull, the conditions couldn't have been much
better, bright clear day, dry road, nothing in front of him,
probably nothing behind.

The cyclist was already level with the mini-roundabout when the
car crossed the line, so no time for 'signalling', whatever
signal means your taking the second exit, and no time to slow
down. Why must you always lay part of the blame on the innocent party
just because they don't have an engine?

That motorist was either not paying attention and didn't see the
cyclist or somehow assumed the cyclist was taking the 1st exit
without bothering to signal.

The driver of the black car on the other side of the road pulled
out because he was expecting him to give way to the cyclist.

100% the drivers fault.

I come across similar circumstances almost every day, yet I don't
crash into them. People make mistakes, they misjudge which exit
you are taking, that is just part of using the roads.


Nope. There are THOUSANDS of accidents on our roads due to this type
of behaviour, how many of them got the blame for the other party
pulling out in front of them?


If the cyclist had been taking sufficient
care the crash would not have occurred,



remember your highway code for thinking and braking distances when
trying to stop.

I am glad to see you agree that the cyclist was travelling too fast
for the situation.



Oh right... Do you slow down to 10 mph when coming to a junction when
a car is waiting to pull out, just to be on the safe side?


Didn't think so.


We are talking about a vulnerable cyclist at a mini roundabout, he should
slow to whatever speed is the safe one for the situation. It is better to
be a little late in this world than early in the next. What is the point
of being injured unnecessarily?


Using that logic means making the max speed limit in towns 10mph. Or better
still, a man walking in front of you waving a red flag...


It doesn't mean that at all.

See if you can work out where your "logic" went wrong.

Everybody has a right to expect others to follow the rules,


Do they?

Where is that enshrined in law?

whether it's
being more observant and not pulling out when you're not supposed to, or not
stepping onto a fast busy road whilst listening to a MP3 player.


It's an expectation. You do not have a right to collide with a road-user who
has broken with the rules if you can otherwise avoid the collision).
 




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