20mph speed limits

About a year ago a 20mph speed limit was introduced for through
traffic in Greenwich Park.

A year on and there is some feedback from the police:
==========
Since the 20mph limit was introduced, the actual average speed of
traffic on the through route has reduced from 45mph to 27mph, which is
considered a success.
==========

What truly staggers me is that before the limit was introduced the
average speed of traffic through Greenwich Park was 45mph. That
implied that a great many motorists were driving considerably in
excess of the old 30mph speed limit.

On 14 Sep, 22:59, Matt B wrote:
On 14/09/2010 21:41, Tom Crispin wrote:

About a year ago a 20mph speed limit was introduced for through
traffic in Greenwich Park.

A year on and there is some feedback from the police:
==========
Since the 20mph limit was introduced, the actual average speed of
traffic on the through route has reduced from 45mph to 27mph, which is
considered a success.
==========

What truly staggers me is that before the limit was introduced the
average speed of traffic through Greenwich Park was 45mph. That
implied that a great many motorists were driving considerably in
excess of the old 30mph speed limit.

What staggers me is that the introduction of the 20 mph limit had any
effect at all. Didn't TRL find that the introduction of 20 mph limits
generally has no effect on traffic speeds? *Were there any other
measures (such as traffic-calming) introduced at the same time as the
new limits? *Are the police exaggerating or misrepresenting the data?

--
Matt B

They'd probably get a civilian to release the statement, if there is
no authorisation from a senior officer, it means nothing and belongs
in the bin.

On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 04:21:14 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six
wrote:

On 14 Sep, 22:59, Matt B wrote:
On 14/09/2010 21:41, Tom Crispin wrote:

About a year ago a 20mph speed limit was introduced for through
traffic in Greenwich Park.

A year on and there is some feedback from the police:
==========
Since the 20mph limit was introduced, the actual average speed of
traffic on the through route has reduced from 45mph to 27mph, which is
considered a success.
==========

What truly staggers me is that before the limit was introduced the
average speed of traffic through Greenwich Park was 45mph. That
implied that a great many motorists were driving considerably in
excess of the old 30mph speed limit.

What staggers me is that the introduction of the 20 mph limit had any
effect at all. Didn't TRL find that the introduction of 20 mph limits
generally has no effect on traffic speeds? *Were there any other
measures (such as traffic-calming) introduced at the same time as the
new limits? *Are the police exaggerating or misrepresenting the data?

For some reason your posts are not appearing on Giganews News Server,
so I am piggy backing. Appologies.

My initial thoughts was that there is some kind of mis-representation.
45mph seems incredibly high for an everage speed in Greenwich Park.
Perhaps that was the average speed of drivers stopped. But that is
pure speculation on my part.

Other than the 20mph limit signs, there is no other traffic calming
measure. However, the Royal Parks Police (now a division within the
Metropolitan Police) regularly set speed traps with a handheld radar
gun shared between the Royal Parks. This will be well known by
commuters who probably make up the overwhelming majority of through
traffic 7am - 10am and 4pm - close of park (approximately dusk).

On 15 Sep, 13:31, Phil W Lee wrote:
Tom Crispin considered Tue, 14 Sep 2010
21:41:53 +0100 the perfect time to write:

About a year ago a 20mph speed limit was introduced for through
traffic in Greenwich Park.

A year on and there is some feedback from the police:
==========
Since the 20mph limit was introduced, the actual average speed of
traffic on the through route has reduced from 45mph to 27mph, which is
considered a success.
==========

What truly staggers me is that before the limit was introduced the
average speed of traffic through Greenwich Park was 45mph. That
implied that a great many motorists were driving considerably in
excess of the old 30mph speed limit.

Or to put it another way, for every driver observing the speed limit,
there was another doing double the speed limit.

Just thought, what does it matter when it's a private road. Unless
there is some special arrangement, the road users are free to do what
they like without penalty. I suppose that making the park police part
of the met is trying to address this, meaning that they can pursue
users for infringements. Still dont think they'd get anywhere in
court though, unless there is a sign stating 'conditions of use' of
the roads.

On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 13:56:47 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six
wrote:

On 15 Sep, 13:31, Phil W Lee wrote:
Tom Crispin considered Tue, 14 Sep 2010
21:41:53 +0100 the perfect time to write:

About a year ago a 20mph speed limit was introduced for through
traffic in Greenwich Park.

A year on and there is some feedback from the police:
==========
Since the 20mph limit was introduced, the actual average speed of
traffic on the through route has reduced from 45mph to 27mph, which is
considered a success.
==========

What truly staggers me is that before the limit was introduced the
average speed of traffic through Greenwich Park was 45mph. That
implied that a great many motorists were driving considerably in
excess of the old 30mph speed limit.

Or to put it another way, for every driver observing the speed limit,
there was another doing double the speed limit.

Just thought, what does it matter when it's a private road. Unless
there is some special arrangement, the road users are free to do what
they like without penalty. I suppose that making the park police part
of the met is trying to address this, meaning that they can pursue
users for infringements. Still dont think they'd get anywhere in
court though, unless there is a sign stating 'conditions of use' of
the roads.

You are very wrong.

The Royal Parks are about the only place where the police can 'do' you
for exceeding the speed limit on a bicycle.

On Wed, 15 Sep 2010, thirty-six wrote:

Just thought, what does it matter when it's a private road. Unless
there is some special arrangement,

There is a special arrangement. It's called the Royal Parks and Other
Open Spaces Regulations 1997, and the amendments of 2004 and 2010

--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

On 15/09/2010 17:53, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 04:21:14 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six
wrote:

On 14 Sep, 22:59, Matt wrote:
On 14/09/2010 21:41, Tom Crispin wrote:

About a year ago a 20mph speed limit was introduced for through
traffic in Greenwich Park.

A year on and there is some feedback from the police:
==========
Since the 20mph limit was introduced, the actual average speed of
traffic on the through route has reduced from 45mph to 27mph, which is
considered a success.
==========

What truly staggers me is that before the limit was introduced the
average speed of traffic through Greenwich Park was 45mph. That
implied that a great many motorists were driving considerably in
excess of the old 30mph speed limit.

What staggers me is that the introduction of the 20 mph limit had any
effect at all. Didn't TRL find that the introduction of 20 mph limits
generally has no effect on traffic speeds? Were there any other
measures (such as traffic-calming) introduced at the same time as the
new limits? Are the police exaggerating or misrepresenting the data?

For some reason your posts are not appearing on Giganews News Server,
so I am piggy backing. Appologies.

Perhaps one or more of the URCM mods have some influence there! ;-)

My initial thoughts was that there is some kind of mis-representation.
45mph seems incredibly high for an everage speed in Greenwich Park.
Perhaps that was the average speed of drivers stopped. But that is
pure speculation on my part.

Other than the 20mph limit signs, there is no other traffic calming
measure. However, the Royal Parks Police (now a division within the
Metropolitan Police) regularly set speed traps with a handheld radar
gun shared between the Royal Parks. This will be well known by
commuters who probably make up the overwhelming majority of through
traffic 7am - 10am and 4pm - close of park (approximately dusk).

I suspect then that the like-for-like average speed was always 27 mph then.

Interestingly, the DfT suggest that 20 mph speed limits (as opposed to
"20 mph zones" which are a different thing) should only be introduced
where the mean vehicle speed is already less than 24 mph, and that
enforcement should not be necessary.

There is something very puzzling going on in the Greenwich Park situation.

--
Matt B

On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 11:37:44 +0100, Matt B
wrote:

On 15/09/2010 17:53, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 04:21:14 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six
wrote:

On 14 Sep, 22:59, Matt wrote:
On 14/09/2010 21:41, Tom Crispin wrote:

About a year ago a 20mph speed limit was introduced for through
traffic in Greenwich Park.

A year on and there is some feedback from the police:
==========
Since the 20mph limit was introduced, the actual average speed of
traffic on the through route has reduced from 45mph to 27mph, which is
considered a success.
==========

What truly staggers me is that before the limit was introduced the
average speed of traffic through Greenwich Park was 45mph. That
implied that a great many motorists were driving considerably in
excess of the old 30mph speed limit.

What staggers me is that the introduction of the 20 mph limit had any
effect at all. Didn't TRL find that the introduction of 20 mph limits
generally has no effect on traffic speeds? Were there any other
measures (such as traffic-calming) introduced at the same time as the
new limits? Are the police exaggerating or misrepresenting the data?

For some reason your posts are not appearing on Giganews News Server,
so I am piggy backing. Appologies.

Perhaps one or more of the URCM mods have some influence there! ;-)

My initial thoughts was that there is some kind of mis-representation.
45mph seems incredibly high for an everage speed in Greenwich Park.
Perhaps that was the average speed of drivers stopped. But that is
pure speculation on my part.

Other than the 20mph limit signs, there is no other traffic calming
measure. However, the Royal Parks Police (now a division within the
Metropolitan Police) regularly set speed traps with a handheld radar
gun shared between the Royal Parks. This will be well known by
commuters who probably make up the overwhelming majority of through
traffic 7am - 10am and 4pm - close of park (approximately dusk).

I suspect then that the like-for-like average speed was always 27 mph then.

Anecdotal evidence is that average speeds have dropped considerably
since the introduction of the 20mph limit, but perhaps not from 45mph
to 27mph as the police report suggests.

Interestingly, the DfT suggest that 20 mph speed limits (as opposed to
"20 mph zones" which are a different thing) should only be introduced
where the mean vehicle speed is already less than 24 mph, and that
enforcement should not be necessary.

There is something very puzzling going on in the Greenwich Park situation.

I expect that has something to do with it being a quasi private road.
Commercial vehicles, other than taxis, are not permitted in Greenwich
Park. Speed limits are enforced against cyclists. There are few road
makings, the rounabout at the top of the Avenue is an exception.

On 16 Sep, 07:17, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 13:56:47 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six



wrote:
On 15 Sep, 13:31, Phil W Lee wrote:
Tom Crispin considered Tue, 14 Sep 2010
21:41:53 +0100 the perfect time to write:

About a year ago a 20mph speed limit was introduced for through
traffic in Greenwich Park.

A year on and there is some feedback from the police:
==========
Since the 20mph limit was introduced, the actual average speed of
traffic on the through route has reduced from 45mph to 27mph, which is
considered a success.
==========

What truly staggers me is that before the limit was introduced the
average speed of traffic through Greenwich Park was 45mph. That
implied that a great many motorists were driving considerably in
excess of the old 30mph speed limit.

Or to put it another way, for every driver observing the speed limit,
there was another doing double the speed limit.

Just thought, what does it matter when it's a private road. *Unless
there is some special arrangement, the road users are free to do what
they like without penalty. *I suppose that making the park police part
of the met is trying to address this, meaning that they can pursue
users for infringements. *Still dont think they'd get anywhere in
court though, unless there is a sign stating 'conditions of use' of
the roads.

You are very wrong.

The Royal Parks are about the only place where the police can 'do' you
for exceeding the speed limit on a bicycle.

Please quote the SI which includes this.

On 17 Sep, 00:29, Phil W Lee wrote:
thirty-six considered Wed, 15 Sep 2010
13:56:47 -0700 (PDT) the perfect time to write:



On 15 Sep, 13:31, Phil W Lee wrote:
Tom Crispin considered Tue, 14 Sep 2010
21:41:53 +0100 the perfect time to write:

About a year ago a 20mph speed limit was introduced for through
traffic in Greenwich Park.

A year on and there is some feedback from the police:
==========
Since the 20mph limit was introduced, the actual average speed of
traffic on the through route has reduced from 45mph to 27mph, which is
considered a success.
==========

What truly staggers me is that before the limit was introduced the
average speed of traffic through Greenwich Park was 45mph. That
implied that a great many motorists were driving considerably in
excess of the old 30mph speed limit.

Or to put it another way, for every driver observing the speed limit,
there was another doing double the speed limit.

Just thought, what does it matter when it's a private road. *Unless
there is some special arrangement, the road users are free to do what
they like without penalty. *I suppose that making the park police part
of the met is trying to address this, meaning that they can pursue
users for infringements. *Still dont think they'd get anywhere in
court though, unless there is a sign stating 'conditions of use' of
the roads.

There are such signs at all the entrances to the royal parks.

If the user has not made an express agreement with the owner(not in
public ownership), say by paying a toll or annual access fee, then it
is debateable whether travelling over a particular speed should
attract any fee presentable to the owner. As 30mph is about the speed
of a galloping horse, I don't see that a lower limit has any validity
on a park road.