Motorist drives along pavement

Alan Braggins wrote:
David Martin wrote:

UTAPLC. If cycling on footpaths is dangerous, then how can learning to
ride on a footpath be learning to ride safely?


Is there any evidence that cycling on footpaths at walking pace and
stopping at every minor junction and driveway is dangerous?

There's two problems with this question. Firstly, your conditions are
poorly specified. Do you mean stop, or do you mean stop, check for
traffic, and proceed if safe to do so? Do you mean stop even when you
have right of way? What is your definition of walking pace? - I can
cycle comfortably at the walking pace of most fit adults, but I once
knew a lady who took over ten minutes to walk the same number of yards,
bless her; I suspect not many cyclists could cycle that slowly.
Conversely, there's one lady I know who sets off at a pace that leaves
most people breathless. Secondly, what is your definition of
'dangerous'? Is there a threshhold value? Is there a comparator? -
and if you go with a comparator, how can you be sure you're not
comparing apples and oranges?

There /is/ a lot of evidence that cycling on the footpaths is more
dangerous than cycling on the road. I'm not aware of any that
attempted to subdivide various styles of riding on the footpath, which
is what you seem to be asking.

R.

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 17:30:03 +0000, Matt B wrote:

If anyone is seriously injured the scene is closed and treated as a
potential crime scene (which, of course it is). The road will be closed
for hours whilst every stone is turned.
Every stone is turned?
A dear, dear friend of mine was run over and left dead, by a coward in a
Range Rover who simply drove off. And this in central London, the area on
earth most covered by CCTV cameras. Driver was never tracked down.
I'll bet a pound to a penny if he was a terrorist suspect the number plate
could have been tracked from here to Timbuktu.

John Hearns wrote:
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 17:30:03 +0000, Matt B wrote:

If anyone is seriously injured the scene is closed and treated as a
potential crime scene (which, of course it is). The road will be closed
for hours whilst every stone is turned.
Every stone is turned?
A dear, dear friend of mine was run over and left dead, by a coward in a
Range Rover who simply drove off. And this in central London, the area on
earth most covered by CCTV cameras. Driver was never tracked down.
I'll bet a pound to a penny if he was a terrorist suspect the number plate
could have been tracked from here to Timbuktu.

Have you a news reference for that? Searching around it seems the
Police usually consult all available CCTV footage for serious hit and runs.

--
Matt B

In article , )
wrote:

I don't see why all footpaths are not turned into cycle paths.

Because bicycles are vehicles and thus belong on the road. Allow
pavement cycling and soon the Great Unwashed will decide that cyclists
should not be on the roads at all, and where would we be then, eh?

--
Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
If you want a bicycle, buy a bicycle. If you want something that folds,
buy a deckchair.

In article , Richard wrote:
Alan Braggins wrote:
David Martin wrote:

UTAPLC. If cycling on footpaths is dangerous, then how can learning to
ride on a footpath be learning to ride safely?

Is there any evidence that cycling on footpaths at walking pace and
stopping at every minor junction and driveway is dangerous?

There's two problems with this question. Firstly, your conditions are
poorly specified. Do you mean stop, or do you mean stop, check for
traffic, and proceed if safe to do so?

The latter, obviously, since stopping and then proceeding, without
checking, under the wheels of a car would be silly.


Do you mean stop even when you have right of way?

Yes. In theory pedestrians have right of way (to the extent such
a thing exists) when crossing side roads, but it isn't safe to
rely on that.


What is your definition of walking pace? - I can
cycle comfortably at the walking pace of most fit adults , but I once
knew a lady who took over ten minutes to walk the same number of yards,
bless her; I suspect not many cyclists could cycle that slowly.

And I suspect she was unlikely to be doing so while supervising a small
child learning to ride which was the context of the question. I doubt
your comfortable cycling pace is as slow as a small child's either.

I suspect actually paying attention to the relevent context answers
the rest of your questions too.

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 11:41:21 +0000, Dave Larrington wrote:

In article , )
wrote:

I don't see why all footpaths are not turned into cycle paths.

Because bicycles are vehicles and thus belong on the road. Allow pavement
cycling and soon the Great Unwashed will decide that cyclists should not
be on the roads at all, and where would we be then, eh?

Wot 'e said.

And that's another reason for being against official 'cycling allowed on
this pavement' besides them being useless and dangerous.

Alan Braggins wrote:

UTAPLC. If cycling on footpaths is dangerous, then how can learning to
ride on a footpath be learning to ride safely?

Is there any evidence that cycling on footpaths at walking pace and
stopping at every minor junction and driveway is dangerous?

There's two problems with this question. Firstly, your conditions are
poorly specified. Do you mean stop, or do you mean stop, check for
traffic, and proceed if safe to do so?


The latter, obviously, since stopping and then proceeding, without
checking, under the wheels of a car would be silly.

Quite - but if the end result is to look/assess/proceed if safe, what
about those that do that without actually stopping? There are many
junctions where the sightlines are such that it is perfectly possible to
slow, then look/assess/proceed if safe. But your question, as
originally phrased, excludes them from the analysis.

Do you mean stop even when you have right of way?

Yes. In theory pedestrians have right of way (to the extent such
a thing exists) when crossing side roads, but it isn't safe to
rely on that.

Why, then, are learner car drivers not taught to stop at every crossing,
even if they have right of way? Is there any evidence that driving on
roads and stopping at every minor junction and driveway, regardless of
priorities, is dangerous?

What is your definition of walking pace? - I can
cycle comfortably at the walking pace of most fit adults , but I once
knew a lady who took over ten minutes to walk the same number of yards,
bless her; I suspect not many cyclists could cycle that slowly.


And I suspect she was unlikely to be doing so while supervising a small
child learning to ride which was the context of the question. I doubt
your comfortable cycling pace is as slow as a small child's either.

The point is that children learning to cycle are likely to be moving at
speeds varying from very slow walking pace, if they have stabilisers, to
a brisk adult trotting pace. In that quite large range, there are all
sorts of variables changing relating to the chance of accident and
injury, so you asking whether cycling "at walking pace" is dangerous is
wrapping too many variables together.

I suspect actually paying attention to the relevent context answers
the rest of your questions too.

No, it doesn't. You asked,

Is there any evidence that cycling on footpaths at walking pace and
stopping at every minor junction and driveway is dangerous?

Again, I ask, dangerous compared to what?

R.

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 11:23:10 +0000, Matt B wrote:


Have you a news reference for that? Searching around it seems the Police
usually consult all available CCTV footage for serious hit and runs.
Yes. But it still makes me so sad and angry that I'd rather it wasn't
pawed over again here. It was discussed at the time.

p.k. wrote:
Matt B wrote:

OTOH, if all attempts to find evidence fail, what would /you/ like to
happen? A kangaroo court? A lynching?

He probably would, yes. It was a driver therefore he must be guilty,

Ignore hansen, he is a touch gruff and has an axe to grind, but far too
well informed to actually say anything you (MattB) can make a coherent
statement about.

I fixed your post for you.
--
Ambrose

spindrift wrote:
"Tarring all motorists with the same brush invites people to dismiss
your
point out of hand. "


"in a recent survey of more than 1,500 UK drivers by Direct Line car
insurance, 94 per cent of motorists still admitted to speeding, with a
third (33 per cent) of young drivers (18-29 year-olds) admitting to
doing so regularly."


Snip


and how does that tally with the point at hand

"Motorists intimidate, kill and cripple cyclists and get away with it"

& "Tarring all motorists with the same brush invites people to dismiss your
point out of hand. "

pk