When to honk at a bicyclist

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 16:33:07 GMT, "neil0502" wrote:

I disagree with this position. Just look at your last post, Badger, and
perhaps you'll see that you've made my case for me. Didn't you just malign
several groups of people (parents with kids in car, cell-phone users) with
a broad brush based on your experience with only a small group of each???

Rereading, I don't follow you here. Are you saying that cell-phone using
drivers don't deserve malignment; that there are 'good' cell-phone using
drivers?

In other words, it would *really* be jim dandy if people /didn't/ see a
single @sshole cyclist doing something inanely stupid and associate future
cyclists, even innocent ones, with that action to some degree.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen it work that way. We like labels and nice,
neat buckets. People make associations like this alllll the time, Zoot.

I live in a town with lots of bikers, and don't drive much, but I'd say I
-rarely- see a biker. You talk like the roads are full of discourteous
cyclists. They're not.

How many of you, when somebody finds out you're a cyclist, have been asked
something like, "Why is it all you guys seem to run red lights?" or "Why is
it that when a bunch of you cyclists go for a ride together, you take up
the whole road even when there's a perfectly good designated bike path?"
I've heard these comments puh-lenty, thankyouverymuch.

Here's where you say, 'how many times have you seen that behavior?' If they
say all the time, then you say, 'have you considered taking a different
route?' That's when you'll really get blasted, b/c to suggest to a driver
that they change their driving behavior is unheard of! ;-D

-B

"Badger_South" wrote (combining two responses here)

"neil0502" wrote:

I disagree with this position. Just look at your last post, Badger, and
perhaps you'll see that you've made my case for me. Didn't you just
malign
several groups of people (parents with kids in car, cell-phone users)
with
a broad brush based on your experience with only a small group of
each???

Rereading, I don't follow you here. Are you saying that cell-phone using
drivers don't deserve malignment; that there are 'good' cell-phone using
drivers?

Not necessarily. My point was that your statement expemplified reasoning
from the specific to the general--something many people do. [For the
record, I took crap on r.b.m. once for admitting to a small sign on my car
that says "Hang up!"]

Certainly, there are 'more conscientious' and 'less conscientious'
cell-phone using drivers (just as the same gradation might apply to other
breeds of drivers, cyclists, etc.)

In other words, it would *really* be jim dandy if people /didn't/ see a
single @sshole cyclist doing something inanely stupid and associate
future
cyclists, even innocent ones, with that action to some degree.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen it work that way. We like labels and
nice,
neat buckets. People make associations like this alllll the time, Zoot.

I live in a town with lots of bikers, and don't drive much, but I'd say I
-rarely- see a biker. You talk like the roads are full of discourteous
cyclists. They're not.

Again, not my intent to imply that. On a national basis, many people have
much more limited experience with cyclists, making it (perhaps) easier to
draw inferences based on the behavior of a very few.

How many of you, when somebody finds out you're a cyclist, have been
asked
something like, "Why is it all you guys seem to run red lights?" or "Why
is
it that when a bunch of you cyclists go for a ride together, you take up
the whole road even when there's a perfectly good designated bike path?"
I've heard these comments puh-lenty, thankyouverymuch.

Here's where you say, 'how many times have you seen that behavior?' If
they
say all the time, then you say, 'have you considered taking a different
route?' That's when you'll really get blasted, b/c to suggest to a driver
that they change their driving behavior is unheard of! ;-D

Yeah, but . . . . as a cyclist, I try to limit my impact on other cyclists,
drivers, etc., etc. As a driver, I do likewise. I've tallied it up. On
an annual basis, it costs me . . . . nothing.

Generally, I'm -extremely- courteous on the road when biking, and always
wave to motorists that give me a few seconds to make make a turn, or
avoid
right or left hooking me.

Didn't mean to single you out, per se.

However let me ask you this. Just how much discourteous behavior is
possible on a bike, fercrissakes? Not much. Maybe taking the road for a
few
seconds too long, and running some stop signs, not just to get somewhere
sooner, but to keep from unclipping and to allow taking the next steep;
perhaps turning or weaving unpredictably. But the big thing is it's not
done in anger.

I understand that. I'm a cyclist, a motorcyclist, and a driver. A cyclist
doing 75% of all of the things that a cyclist can do to be discourterous
(IMHO) is being as rude as a driver doing 75% of all the things that a
driver can do to be discourteous. The potential effect may be vastly
different, but the mindset and the antisocial behavior seem equivalent to
me.

I also don't know that Joe Weenie Driver particularly cares about the
cyclist's motivation; rather, the motorist may care only about the effect
(if any) that the cyclist has on the driver's precious commuting time, or
that they had to set down their Starbucks and swerve to avoid the bike.
Right or wrong, this does oft seem the case.

Rule #1 in negotiations: understand what's important to the other side.

But imagine how much discourteous behavior is possible, and in fact
frequently seen in a car?

I want us to be better than them, not as bad as, or worse than them. I
think the same way when talking to people about driving.

So we all know who has to take the brunt of the suggestion to be
courteous,
now, don't we? ;-)

In the political parlance: an asymmetric threat?? ;-)

Mon, 18 Oct 2004 16:33:07 GMT,
,
"neil0502" wrote:

How many of you, when somebody finds out you're a cyclist, have been asked
something like, "Why is it all you guys seem to run red lights

I just tell 'em, "You didn't see me."
--
zk

18 Oct 2004 08:13:59 -0700,
,
(R.White) wrote:

Substantiate your silly boogie man myth with documented cases or STFU.

That would also apply to all those "murderous drivers."

Hey stunned one, you're the dufus who professed that drivers will be
exacting revenge on you for what I do. That's "murderous"behaviour.

Where's the documentation? I want to see the testimonials where your
poor persecuted scud slaves have admitted in court that they ran down
cyclist B today because cyclist A jumped a curb, ran a stop or
filtered forward last week.

You're nuts to propagate such a bizarre story.

Sure, plenty of you caged fluffies are worthless twisted sickos but
not many of you are really homicidal flippers.
--
zk

Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:58:34 GMT,
, "neil0502"
wrote:

Rule #1 in negotiations: understand what's important to the other side.

Their erroneous sense of exclusive entitlement is being challenged.
What's important to them is to reassert their dominance.
They're childishly selfish and idiotic scum.
--
zk

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:58:34 GMT, "neil0502" wrote:

Yeah, but . . . . as a cyclist, I try to limit my impact on other cyclists,
drivers, etc., etc. As a driver, I do likewise. I've tallied it up. On
an annual basis, it costs me . . . . nothing.

Thinking about it, one of the things that's on my mind when biking and
encountering traffic is to project a good image to the motorists - yes, I
actually think 'if I wave, the driver will take a nice feeling about bikers
with him/her'. Of course I actually -feel- friendly also. I admit that I
rarely, if ever, have felt this when driving towards other drivers - 'oh,
let me sit up straight and yield'. (I do wave when I'm let in line,
though).

Generally, I'm -extremely- courteous on the road when biking, and always
wave to motorists that give me a few seconds to make make a turn, or
avoid right or left hooking me.

Didn't mean to single you out, per se.

However let me ask you this. Just how much discourteous behavior is
possible on a bike, fercrissakes? Not much. Maybe taking the road for a
seconds too long, and running some stop signs, not just to get somewhere
sooner, but to keep from unclipping and to allow taking the next steep;
perhaps turning or weaving unpredictably. But the big thing is it's not
done in anger.

I understand that. I'm a cyclist, a motorcyclist, and a driver. A cyclist
doing 75% of all of the things that a cyclist can do to be discourterous
(IMHO) is being as rude as a driver doing 75% of all the things that a
driver can do to be discourteous. The potential effect may be vastly
different, but the mindset and the antisocial behavior seem equivalent to
me.

Not sure I follow this. I'd guess that -very- few cyclists use their bikes
to perform discourteous behavior on purpose, knowing how vulnerable they
are. Now, some behavior may end up -appearing- as discourteous, depending
on the motorist's view. I'm sure a few drivers have been miffed at seeing
me run a stop sign _even though they were several carlengths_ back from the
intersection. The reason? Jealousy that a cop would blow it off? (or in
Connecticutt that it's legal to 'yield' if no traffic").

The point is drivers -try- to find reasons to view biking behavior as
discourteous even if they were affected in -no- way by this behavior. "Oh
look that biker is weaving! That really ****es me off that they can do that
- they should be on the sidewalk!". They don't think 'oh, look that nice
biker just got stung by a bee'.

I also don't know that Joe Weenie Driver particularly cares about the
cyclist's motivation; rather, the motorist may care only about the effect
(if any) that the cyclist has on the driver's precious commuting time, or
that they had to set down their Starbucks and swerve to avoid the bike.
Right or wrong, this does oft seem the case.

Thus it rarely matters what behavior a cyclist exhibits, it's seen as
disrespectful a priori - "the nerve, being on my road that I paid for". So
why bother? But in actuality, most bikers are trying to stay out of the way
and not provoke motorists, I'd guess.

Rule #1 in negotiations: understand what's important to the other side.

As a driver the only important thing is that the biker try to be as
predictable as possible, which basically means giving ample warning before
turning left, and taking care so as not to be right hooked, unseen.

But imagine how much discourteous behavior is possible, and in fact
frequently seen in a car?

I want us to be better than them, not as bad as, or worse than them. I
think the same way when talking to people about driving.

Again, there are so few cyclists that it really has no effect. Have you
ever heard any drivers say anything nice about a cyclists? "he was so nice
to pull over and let me go by; he did a great job of signalling a turn" Not
likely. They will only remember the bad behavior, even if it only happened
to them once in their lifetime.

So we all know who has to take the brunt of the suggestion to be
courteous, now, don't we? ;-)

In the political parlance: an asymmetric threat?? ;-)

Well in the case of motorists, huge threat to themselves, bikers and
pedestrians without even trying, and in most cases completely unaware of
that fact - else why would anyone yak on a cell phone or fish for cassette
tapes on the floor of the passenger side while driving?

-B

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:28:17 -0700, Zoot Katz
wrote:

Mon, 18 Oct 2004 16:33:07 GMT,
,
"neil0502" wrote:

How many of you, when somebody finds out you're a cyclist, have been asked
something like, "Why is it all you guys seem to run red lights

I just tell 'em, "You didn't see me."

Hahaha. Good one.

-B
"They came out of nowhere!"

Badger_South wrote in message . ..
On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:59:34 -0700, Zoot Katz
wrote:

17 Oct 2004 16:16:28 -0700,
,
another damned idiot, (R.White) repeated:

and gives other cyclists a bad name. It's too bad someone
else in the area you ride may fall victim to some idiot driver that
you ****ed off earlier when you showed them who was in charge of
the road.

Do you idiots make up these kinds of stories just to scare yourselves
or because you're unable to take responsibility for your own actions?

How about because of your deplorable habits every White in the phone
book should start getting crank calls and letter bombs?

Maybe it's because you're ready to excuse murderous drivers assaulting
cyclists. "The way they were dressed they were just askin' for it"!

Substantiate your silly boogie man myth with documented cases or STFU.

I vote with STFU, and him changing his handle to car-lover which suits his
trolling ass better. Idiot drivers don't need any 'reason' to act ****ed
off at bikers, and we've seen how they act with their own kids in the car,
not paying attention, yakking on the cell, caring less if they run up a
telephone pole or into a semi.

And how many drivers view cyclists as idiots due to your need to
"assert dominance?"

I simply asked you a question a while back regarding your claim of
"being run over" (to which I apologised) and now you think you have me
pegged as a troll and car lover. Get real. I'm neither. I'm just
looking at things in a rational manner instead of a being a ****ed
off, emotionally charged hot-head like yourself. Seems that every ride
you take is a constant battle of you-vs-them. Go ahead and keep it up.
Your posting and riding days will soon be over due to your stubborn
stupidity.

18 Oct 2004 13:40:30 -0700,
,
(R.White) wrote:

Get real. I'm neither. I'm just
looking at things in a rational manner instead of a being a ****ed
off, emotionally charged hot-head like yourself. Seems that every ride
you take is a constant battle of you-vs-them. Go ahead and keep it up.
Your posting and riding days will soon be over due to your stubborn
stupidity.

Get real yourself.
You're infected with a totally irrational fear that some lunatic is
going to assault you with their scud because I'd scared them by
"popping out of nowhere" or taking the lane when the situation
warranted that. Worse still is you're spreading your infection with
the retelling of a myth. Where'd this story come from that you're so
willing believe it and repeat it?

Have you ever been victim to a raging cager ****ed off at me or are
you just looking for a scapegoat?
--
zk

Zoot Katz wrote in message ...
18 Oct 2004 08:13:59 -0700,
,
(R.White) wrote:

Substantiate your silly boogie man myth with documented cases or STFU.

That would also apply to all those "murderous drivers."

Hey stunned one, you're the dufus who professed that drivers will be
exacting revenge on you for what I do. That's "murderous"behaviour.

You are proving my point each time you refer to drivers as
"murderous" or "caged fluffies" and "twisted sickos". You have
an attitude towards vehicle drivers that is the same as some of
them have towards cyclists. Both attitudes based on the actions
of a few. Your perception follows the same logic as the driver
who sees all cyclist as "lycra wearing faggots" or "arrogant assholes."
They are out there. You know it as well as I do and you know they
feel that way because of the actions of a few. Those few affect
most of us eventually.

Where's the documentation? I want to see the testimonials where your
poor persecuted scud slaves have admitted in court that they ran down
cyclist B today because cyclist A jumped a curb, ran a stop or
filtered forward last week.

Get real moron, no one would confess to that sort of behaviour when
it would result in a greater penalty to be paid. Even people caught
red-handed will lie and say they are innocent. Here's a clue,
O.J. really did kill Nichole.

Read the threads that have been posted in the past. Try
"Bike-Hating Drivers"
"Bicycling Is For Morons" "What [sic} Are Bikers Such Morons"
"Imbeciles was Is it just me, or were these cyclists rude?"
"Yet ANOTHER Anti-cycling Editorial" "Observations on other Cyclists"
"critical mass - good or bad? You decide."

You're nuts to propagate such a bizarre story.

You're nuts to think it never happens.

Sure, plenty of you caged fluffies are worthless twisted sickos but
not many of you are really homicidal flippers.

Catchy phrases like "your poor persecuted scud slaves" and "plenty
of you caged fluffies" just reinforce my piont that YOU are the
same as THEM.