Buying a bottom bracket and crankset for an older bike online?

In reply to my thread about old-fashioned cranksets and bottom brackets, Jay Beattie wrote: "Personally, I'd go get a modern 2-piece Ultegra compact crank (cheaper than the VO!) and an outboard BB, but that's just me. I'm not much for historical reenactment. My Phil BB is in a box in the basement. You can read all about those new-fangled cranks on the inter-web."

HTH can you make sure that new-fangled outboard bottom bracket and crankset that you order online will fit your older Italian-style bottom bracket shell? What measurements do you need to make on your bike, and how do you convert an old JIS-type axle length to the new specs?

Thanks again.

retro

On 1/22/2015 10:27 AM, wrote:
In reply to my thread about old-fashioned cranksets and bottom brackets, Jay Beattie wrote: "Personally, I'd go get a modern 2-piece Ultegra compact crank (cheaper than the VO!) and an outboard BB, but that's just me. I'm not much for historical reenactment. My Phil BB is in a box in the basement. You can read all about those new-fangled cranks on the inter-web."

HTH can you make sure that new-fangled outboard bottom bracket and crankset that you order online will fit your older Italian-style bottom bracket shell? What measurements do you need to make on your bike, and how do you convert an old JIS-type axle length to the new specs?

Thanks again.

retro


It's actually quite simple to arrange new equipment. Specify
crank length and gearing, than order fittings for either
threaded frame (ITA or BSC) or one of the many no-thread
formats. Your choices are extremely limited and hence harder
to screw up.

I'm curious about your 'Italian' comment. Waterford started
in 1993 and are BSC format, so if your frame is "1980s" with
36mm Italian threads, it's not a Waterford. ??

Also, continuing along, I'm fairly certain there are no
current $50 cranks for a Phil Campagnolo Record pattern
115mm asymmetric spindle. Note that the revisionist "JIS"
taper section has a smaller start than classic taper section
although the taper angle is the same.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/3SPINDLE.JPG

A betting man would surmise that proper chainline on that
new crank with your Phil BB is unlikely.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Yes, well, maybe I am crazy about having an Italian bottom bracket shell, I dunno, but I am pretty sure it is a Waterford Paramount made in the mid-'80s:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/95yk00tm540a208/bike.jpg?dl=0

Columbus SLX tubing, and I believe it is of Paramount Design Group lineage.

What type of bottom bracket shell do you think my bike has, Andrew?

Andrew Muzi wrote: "A betting man would surmise that proper chainline on that
new crank with your Phil BB is unlikely."

Yeah, after my little accident I rode over to my LBS with one pedal and found that they had a RH alloy crank and chainrings sitting around labelled "FG Prog" that they sold me for very little. It didn't give me the correct chain line (crank too far away from the frame), but I was able to re-adjust the derailleurs to work fine. I suspect my new crankset from SJS cycles will be the same. Better too far from the frame than too close!

On 1/22/2015 12:11 PM, wrote:
Yes, well, maybe I am crazy about having an Italian bottom bracket shell, I dunno, but I am pretty sure it is a Waterford Paramount made in the mid-'80s:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/95yk00tm540a208/bike.jpg?dl=0

Columbus SLX tubing, and I believe it is of Paramount Design Group lineage.

What type of bottom bracket shell do you think my bike has, Andrew?


The part may have been made in Italy but the format is BSC,
1.370" x 24t and 68mm wide.

Cinelli and everyone else also supplied their parts for
Italian, French and Swiss format.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 23/01/15 11:31, jbeattie wrote:


More at:
http://newsite.parktool.com/blog/rep...o-ultra-torque

It's a very simple system -- also lightweight and stiff, if that
matters to you. The negatives include expensive chain ring
replacement and shorter bearing life, but outboard BBs are so cheap
and easy to replace, that shorter bearing life is no big deal.

I used to routinely ruin a Shimano or Campy cartridge BB per season, and
I broke a Shimano cartridge BB axle (mid race). The old type with a set
of balls in a cage and adjustable cups in the frame always either got
loose or got crunchy to fast for my liking.

On expensive chain ring replacement and shorter bearing life, I can buy
Stronglight chain rings for my Campy UT cranks, that are not excessively
expensive like the genuine article, and as for bearing life - well the
bearings have lived for far longer than any other BB bearing assy I've
ever tried and without needing adjustment.

If they are negatives, I'm lost.

--
JS

There's a formula...a+b-c+e=axle length..sidedness. I used the formula then asked ...prob here for info. Matched old threaing wit known new exmaples...thread gauge.

No problem.

But that was 7-10 years ago. Life was simpler.

this is like going from carbs/coil to todays computer emissions setups in IC...itsnot difficult but at first it is very confusing first glance: the parts are different. WTH is an outboard bearing ?

On 2015-01-23 01:50:31 +0000, James said:

On 23/01/15 11:31, jbeattie wrote:


More at:
http://newsite.parktool.com/blog/rep...o-ultra-torque


It's a very simple system -- also lightweight and stiff, if that
matters to you. The negatives include expensive chain ring
replacement and shorter bearing life, but outboard BBs are so cheap
and easy to replace, that shorter bearing life is no big deal.

I used to routinely ruin a Shimano or Campy cartridge BB per season,
and I broke a Shimano cartridge BB axle (mid race). The old type with
a set of balls in a cage and adjustable cups in the frame always either
got loose or got crunchy to fast for my liking.

On expensive chain ring replacement and shorter bearing life, I can buy
Stronglight chain rings for my Campy UT cranks, that are not
excessively expensive like the genuine article, and as for bearing life
- well the bearings have lived for far longer than any other BB bearing
assy I've ever tried and without needing adjustment.

If they are negatives, I'm lost.

Shimano design has a loose fitting of the bearing on the axle. That is
not a correct design but they do it because of simplicity and cost. The
result of it is that if the bearing slips relative to the axle the axle
wears and you whole crankset is shot. I saw this happen more than once.
You have to check it from time to time. It is easy and new bearings as
Jay told us are cheap. Campy cut the axle in half, at least at the
higher end stuff(Chorus, Record and Super Record), and press fit the
bearings on the axle. That is the corect design but more complicated
and expensive.
--

Lou

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 4:35:59 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
On 2015-01-23 01:50:31 +0000, James said:

On 23/01/15 11:31, jbeattie wrote:


More at:
http://newsite.parktool.com/blog/rep...o-ultra-torque


It's a very simple system -- also lightweight and stiff, if that
matters to you. The negatives include expensive chain ring
replacement and shorter bearing life, but outboard BBs are so cheap
and easy to replace, that shorter bearing life is no big deal.

I used to routinely ruin a Shimano or Campy cartridge BB per season,
and I broke a Shimano cartridge BB axle (mid race). The old type with
a set of balls in a cage and adjustable cups in the frame always either
got loose or got crunchy to fast for my liking.

On expensive chain ring replacement and shorter bearing life, I can buy
Stronglight chain rings for my Campy UT cranks, that are not
excessively expensive like the genuine article, and as for bearing life
- well the bearings have lived for far longer than any other BB bearing
assy I've ever tried and without needing adjustment.

If they are negatives, I'm lost.

Shimano design has a loose fitting of the bearing on the axle. That is
not a correct design but they do it because of simplicity and cost. The
result of it is that if the bearing slips relative to the axle the axle
wears and you whole crankset is shot. I saw this happen more than once.
You have to check it from time to time. It is easy and new bearings as
Jay told us are cheap. Campy cut the axle in half, at least at the
higher end stuff(Chorus, Record and Super Record), and press fit the
bearings on the axle. That is the corect design but more complicated
and expensive.

I have yet to experience the bearing/axle wear problem, but then again, I broke the only two-piece crank in the stable that was approaching old age. Apart from checking for this problem, is there any way to prevent or mitigate it (apart from not buying Shimano or similar designs)?

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2015-01-23 15:29:20 +0000, jbeattie said:

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 4:35:59 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
On 2015-01-23 01:50:31 +0000, James said:

On 23/01/15 11:31, jbeattie wrote:


More at:
http://newsite.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/external-bearing-crank-systems-hollowtech-ii-megaexo-giga-x-pipe-x-type-campagnolo-ultra-torque
It's a very simple system -- also lightweight and stiff, if
that
matters to you. The negatives include expensive chain ring
replacement and shorter bearing life, but outboard BBs are so cheap
and easy to replace, that shorter bearing life is no big deal.

I used to routinely ruin a Shimano or Campy cartridge BB per season,
and I broke a Shimano cartridge BB axle (mid race). The old type with
a set of balls in a cage and adjustable cups in the frame always
either got loose or got crunchy to fast for my liking.

On expensive chain ring replacement and shorter bearing life, I can
buy Stronglight chain rings for my Campy UT cranks, that are not
excessively expensive like the genuine article, and as for bearing
life - well the bearings have lived for far longer than any other BB
bearing assy I've ever tried and without needing adjustment.

If they are negatives, I'm lost.

Shimano design has a loose fitting of the bearing on the axle. That is
not a correct design but they do it because of simplicity and cost.
The result of it is that if the bearing slips relative to the axle the
axle wears and you whole crankset is shot. I saw this happen more than
once. You have to check it from time to time. It is easy and new
bearings as Jay told us are cheap. Campy cut the axle in half, at
least at the higher end stuff(Chorus, Record and Super Record), and
press fit the bearings on the axle. That is the corect design but more
complicated and expensive.

I have yet to experience the bearing/axle wear problem, but then again,
I broke the only two-piece crank in the stable that was approaching old
age. Apart from checking for this problem, is there any way to prevent
or mitigate it (apart from not buying Shimano or similar designs)?

-- Jay Beattie.

It happens only when the bearing develops a lot of drag. It is unlikely
that this will happen on a road bike. All the incidents I know happened
on a ATB with guys who never do any maintenance on a bike. I remove the
crank after every off road season and check if the bearing is still
running smoothly. Clean as good as it can and try to squeeze in some
grease. If there is any doubt I replace the bearing. They are cheap.
--

Lou