Electric dangers

On Monday, January 21, 2019 at 9:05:28 AM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
" writes:

On Sunday, January 20, 2019 at 11:24:52 AM UTC-6, wrote:

The burning Lithium Ion batteries cannot be extinguished with CO2 -
it is a chemical process of a shorted battery. Fire departments now
continue to shoot water on these for up to 20 minutes or more. If
the stop, the heat again goes over the flammable limits. The idea is
to continue cooling the batteries until the short exhausts the
energy in the shorted cells.

Sure lithium ion battery fires can be extinguished by CO2. Fire
requires oxygen to make fire. CO2 supplants oxygen. No oxygen, no
fire. I'm sure its true the lithium ion battery can create enough
heat to start a fire if its not soaked with water for a long time.
But that fire still requires oxygen to start and continue. Or some
other fire friendly gas. If you have CO2 continuously supplanting
oxygen, then no fire can start or burn.

I'm not sure about Li-ION battery fires, but in general your statement
is simply not true. Magnesium or aluminum will burn happily in a pure
CO2 atmosphere.

--

Most of the Lithium Ion fires are extremely dangerous because the batteries do this when they are damaged mechanically and have shorts across cells. They can become so hot so rapidly that they actually explode. The same can happen if you charge their too rapidly below 1/4 charge or above 3/4 charge. The heat generated can melt the film separating the electrodes.

You can shoot all of the CO2 on them you like with no effect. But you can cool them with water. But until the effected cells are completely discharged they can evaporate "Dihydrogen-Monoxide then reignite. Apparently this is funny to certain parties.

On Monday, January 21, 2019 at 9:05:28 AM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
" writes:

On Sunday, January 20, 2019 at 11:24:52 AM UTC-6, wrote:

The burning Lithium Ion batteries cannot be extinguished with CO2 -
it is a chemical process of a shorted battery. Fire departments now
continue to shoot water on these for up to 20 minutes or more. If
the stop, the heat again goes over the flammable limits. The idea is
to continue cooling the batteries until the short exhausts the
energy in the shorted cells.

Sure lithium ion battery fires can be extinguished by CO2. Fire
requires oxygen to make fire. CO2 supplants oxygen. No oxygen, no
fire. I'm sure its true the lithium ion battery can create enough
heat to start a fire if its not soaked with water for a long time.
But that fire still requires oxygen to start and continue. Or some
other fire friendly gas. If you have CO2 continuously supplanting
oxygen, then no fire can start or burn.

I'm not sure about Li-ION battery fires, but in general your statement
is simply not true. Magnesium or aluminum will burn happily in a pure
CO2 atmosphere.

The inter-web recommends Class D dry powder for Li-On battery fires, which is certainly more exotic than a CO2 cartridge. Another Kickstarter opportunity -- tiny portable Class D extinguishers for your eBike!

-- Jay Beattie.

wrote:
:On Sunday, January 20, 2019 at 11:24:52 AM UTC-6, wrote:
:
: The burning Lithium Ion batteries cannot be extinguished with CO2 - it is a chemical process of a shorted battery. Fire departments now continue to shoot water on these for up to 20 minutes or more. If the stop, the heat again goes over the flammable limits. The idea is to continue cooling the batteries until the short exhausts the energy in the shorted cells.

:Sure lithium ion battery fires can be extinguished by CO2. Fire
:requires oxygen to make fire. CO2 supplants oxygen. No oxygen, no fire.

If you look carefully, you'll notice that there are two oxygen atoms
in every molecule of CO2. At high temperature, CO2 breaks down, and
the oxygen is available for combustion. CO2 will also react with some
metals, producing a fire.

Magnesium will happily burn in a pure CO2 atmosphere, though the rate
of combustion is lower than in earth air. A standard chemistry
lecture demonstartion is to cut a cube of dry ice in half, scoop out
some from the bottom piece, light a strip of magnesium, put it in tha
scooped out hole, and put hte other piece on top. Then you open it
up, and see the fire consumed all your magnisium, and consumed a
bunch of the dry ice too. Lithium does the same thing, rather more
violently.



--
sig 24

writes:

On Monday, January 21, 2019 at 9:05:28 AM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
" writes:

On Sunday, January 20, 2019 at 11:24:52 AM UTC-6, wrote:

The burning Lithium Ion batteries cannot be extinguished with CO2 -
it is a chemical process of a shorted battery. Fire departments now
continue to shoot water on these for up to 20 minutes or more. If
the stop, the heat again goes over the flammable limits. The idea is
to continue cooling the batteries until the short exhausts the
energy in the shorted cells.

Sure lithium ion battery fires can be extinguished by CO2. Fire
requires oxygen to make fire. CO2 supplants oxygen. No oxygen, no
fire. I'm sure its true the lithium ion battery can create enough
heat to start a fire if its not soaked with water for a long time.
But that fire still requires oxygen to start and continue. Or some
other fire friendly gas. If you have CO2 continuously supplanting
oxygen, then no fire can start or burn.

I'm not sure about Li-ION battery fires, but in general your statement
is simply not true. Magnesium or aluminum will burn happily in a pure
CO2 atmosphere.

--

Most of the Lithium Ion fires are extremely dangerous because the
batteries do this when they are damaged mechanically and have shorts
across cells. They can become so hot so rapidly that they actually
explode. The same can happen if you charge their too rapidly below 1/4
charge or above 3/4 charge. The heat generated can melt the film
separating the electrodes.

If the problem is essentially an electrical fire started by
short-circuiting battery cells then CO2 might not do much good, but
shouldn't really hurt either. CO2 does have the advantage of being
non-conductive, so preferred for class C (electrical) fires.

If the problem is exposed burning metallic Lithium then CO2 would be
counter-productive, but it sounds as though that does not usually
happen.

You can shoot all of the CO2 on them you like with no effect. But you
can cool them with water. But until the effected cells are completely
discharged they can evaporate "Dihydrogen-Monoxide then
reignite. Apparently this is funny to certain parties.

CO2 ought to knock down the fires started by short circuits, but do
nothing for the underlying problem.

--

jbeattie writes:

On Monday, January 21, 2019 at 9:05:28 AM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
" writes:

On Sunday, January 20, 2019 at 11:24:52 AM UTC-6, wrote:

The burning Lithium Ion batteries cannot be extinguished with CO2 -
it is a chemical process of a shorted battery. Fire departments now
continue to shoot water on these for up to 20 minutes or more. If
the stop, the heat again goes over the flammable limits. The idea is
to continue cooling the batteries until the short exhausts the
energy in the shorted cells.

Sure lithium ion battery fires can be extinguished by CO2. Fire
requires oxygen to make fire. CO2 supplants oxygen. No oxygen, no
fire. I'm sure its true the lithium ion battery can create enough
heat to start a fire if its not soaked with water for a long time.
But that fire still requires oxygen to start and continue. Or some
other fire friendly gas. If you have CO2 continuously supplanting
oxygen, then no fire can start or burn.

I'm not sure about Li-ION battery fires, but in general your statement
is simply not true. Magnesium or aluminum will burn happily in a pure
CO2 atmosphere.

The inter-web recommends Class D dry powder for Li-On battery fires,
which is certainly more exotic than a CO2 cartridge. Another
Kickstarter opportunity -- tiny portable Class D extinguishers for
your eBike!

As far as I can tell class D extinguishers are normally not qualified
for any other class, because putting out burning metal used to be a
specialized requirement. For Li-ION battery fires you really want class
CD, which seems to be thin on the ground. NFPA, meet Kickstarter ...



--

On 1/21/2019 9:44 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

The inter-web recommends Class D dry powder for Li-On battery fires, which is certainly more exotic than a CO2 cartridge. Another Kickstarter opportunity -- tiny portable Class D extinguishers for your eBike!

The eBike manufacturers should be required to include a Class D fire
extinguisher as standard equipment. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005QQD3A2

On 1/21/2019 9:44 AM, jbeattie wrote:

The inter-web recommends Class D dry powder for Li-On battery fires,

You sure about that?
https://resources.fireprotec.com/how-do-you-put-out-lithium-ion-battery-fire

On Monday, January 21, 2019 at 1:50:05 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 1/21/2019 9:44 AM, jbeattie wrote:

The inter-web recommends Class D dry powder for Li-On battery fires,

You sure about that?
https://resources.fireprotec.com/how-do-you-put-out-lithium-ion-battery-fire

I was tricked! Well, I didn't read closely. https://batteryuniversity.com/index....ns_with_li_ion

So, we can get rich selling tiny ABC fire extinguishers for eBikes. There's an opportunity in here somewhere.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Monday, January 21, 2019 at 12:33:35 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 1/21/2019 9:44 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

The inter-web recommends Class D dry powder for Li-On battery fires, which is certainly more exotic than a CO2 cartridge. Another Kickstarter opportunity -- tiny portable Class D extinguishers for your eBike!

The eBike manufacturers should be required to include a Class D fire
extinguisher as standard equipment. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005QQD3A2

The government should get their F-ing nose out. If enough people are burned from E-fires and sue hell out of these manufacturers they will develop the newer Carbon batteries or Grapheme Supercapacitors.