Stronger rubber cement?

On 1/21/2017 10:42 AM, Joerg wrote:
Large zip lock bags
have another advantage. When I find a dehydrated animal I can pour some
water into one and hold it so he or she can lap up the water.

For a minute there, I thought you were talking about road-kill jerky.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2017-01-21 12:54, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/21/2017 10:59 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-20 18:08, John B. wrote:


... But you do 83% of that speed on a heavy
clunky mountain bike through the mud so think that you have to poke it
off with a special stick that you carry.

Incredible!


How fast do you go on your road bike? For how long? I can hold 22mph for
half an hour. A friend goes 25mph and when I follow him I am totally
bushed, so I don't know what you find miraculous. A MTB is just a little
heavier and has higher rolling resistance but not a lot. Going 20mph on
one of those is something every somewhat fit rider should do.

What mountain bike tires are you running that have just a little more
rolling resistance than road bike tires?

http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/ indicates roughly twice as much
CRR, ...


.... and here is the reason:

http://www.bicyclerollingresistance....-race-exo-2016

Quote " When we look at the results of the rolling resistance test,
rolling resistance of the Ardent Race comes in close to 11% higher at
the most important air pressure of 25 psi / 1.7 bars".
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I run my MTB tires at more than twice that pressure.


... and that's not including the greater losses from tossing your
body+bike mass over rough surfaces. Suspension reduces those losses
compared to a rigid mountain bike, but the losses are still much more
than a road bike on any reasonable road.


Initially I didn't notice too much difference between road bike and MTB
(with the suspension locked out front and rear) but I did loose slightly
more than 1mph in my avergae speed after switching to thick tubes. The
reason became obvious during a break on a cold day. I accidentally
touched the rear tire and found that it had warmed.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-01-21 12:44, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/21/2017 11:32 AM, Joerg wrote:

Other times I dunk it in a creek and also splash water over myself.

And where did I ever write about 20mph over 50 miles? Don't make stuff
up and falsely claim people wrote that. Because I didn't. Leave that
sort of stuff to the media, they are good at fake news lately :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_DETYq4WoE

Do you think these are all Tour de France riders? They are going around
20mph (speedometer shows km/h), they aren't breaking much of a sweat and
they are even chatting at times.

There's also a lot of coasting, which makes me strongly suspect that
they're on a long, gentle downgrade.


Doesn't look like it to me. I have seen MTB riders travel at that speed
on flat roads here. As I said I can do that for 15 minutes or even more
but I become exhausted if I keep that up for half an hour. Then it
begins to not be fun anymore. Some of the younger riders don't
experience that, they keep going north of 20mph and then pull away from me.

Once on a flat section of a long county road after leaving the
singletrack I was riding 22-23mph on my "tank" and felt high on the hog.
Then ... whoosh ... another MTB rider blew past me and slowly
disappeared in the distance. I no longer felt high on the hog. According
to some here that guy must have super-natural powers. Yet he didn't even
wear a team jersey and was as muddy as I was.

One of the limitations of most MTB including mine is that the gears max
out at 42/11. For low-cadence riders like me that means that the cadence
or crank rpm "redlines" before I can reach 30mph.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-01-21 13:14, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/21/2017 10:42 AM, Joerg wrote:
Large zip lock bags
have another advantage. When I find a dehydrated animal I can pour some
water into one and hold it so he or she can lap up the water.

For a minute there, I thought you were talking about road-kill jerky.


:-)

One of the regulars at one of my bike ride watering holes a.k.a.
brewpubs makes his own jerky and sometimes brings a zip lock bag with
lots of it.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Saturday, January 21, 2017 at 12:29:33 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-18 14:50, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Tue, 17 Jan 2017
10:56:15 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2017-01-17 10:36, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 9:47:32 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-17 08:21, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


What I pay in car insurance annually would buy me an all new
bike every year. Skip cleaning the chain -- just put last year's
bike out with the garbage. Plus, my bikes are reliable. I
reliably change the chain when the wear indicator indicates and
change the tires when they are worn out. I fix a flat now and
then and do other routine maintenance. It's not like some
monumental inconvenience, and if flats were epidemic, then I
would switch to a hard-case tire. I would not agonize over the
fact that the 20lb tire on my Subaru goes flat less often.


My point is that when I say I am going to be there for an
important meeting at 11:30am I don't want to leave half an hour
earlier just in case I get a flat. And good luck getting that
Gatorksin tire back onto one of my rims.

If it takes you half an hour to fix a flat, you have other problems
that need to be addressed.


Yeah, I could get new rims and/or different tires. That is why finding a
suitable tire isn't easy. You are welcome to come over and try getting a
Gatorskin onto my rims.

It seems to me that the problem is with either your rims or your
technique.


The rims are shallow. The problem is that some tires run too small in
the bead.


I've changed Gatorskins without levers or difficulty, right up to the
stage where my arthritis was a serious problem for normal riding, or
even holding a pen.
Therefore I would suggest that any other tyre you try will have the
same problem.


As I have written that is not the case. All the tires I mounted in the
80's and 90's went one with ease.


Heck, if you think your Gatorskins are difficult, I wonder how hard
you'd find a Marathon Plus on an ISO 406 (20") rim!
I've done that too, and although I did need levers to remove the tyre,
it wasn't particularly difficult or time consuming - about 10 minutes,
mostly spent prepping the tube for patching and checking the inside of
the cover for debris and/or penetrating objects (although that was
done while waiting for the rubber cement to dry enough for the patch
to be applied). I could have halved the time by using a CO2 inflator,
at a guess - but I prefer a pump, which doesn't run out or leave
waste.


Same here. A large pump at home and a Pocket Rocket for the road.


Your half hour tube change on a road bike is about the time I'd have
expected to take to replace the tyre on the inside wheel of a pair on
the drive axle or semi-trailer of an articulated heavy truck, which
I've also had to do in the past. The tyre, not the whole wheel - that
part just takes 10 minutes. So 20 minutes for the tyre swap, although
admittedly that is with split rims (although they are in my experience
universal on wheels designed for that duty).


I helped a friend mount a motorcycle tire onto the rim. That only took
minutes. Not having a compressor with large enough volume he pushed the
bead back, spritzed starter fluid in there, lit a match ... *BAM* ...
threw a wet towel over it to douse remaining flame, aired it up, done.


Certainly, the variability in arrival time from punctures on a bicycle
is FAR less than the variability in arrival time in a car due to
traffic - that is one of the major reasons people choose to commute by
bicycle!


Not around here.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

You would normally have problems mounting a folding tire the first time. What you do it fight it on and then overpressure it to perhaps 140 lbs. This stretches the bead material a slight amount and then they fit tight but not overly so.

There is also a technique to mounting them where you push them on mostly by hand. Starting at the filler side and up both sides so that it reaches it's tightest opposite the filler.

This leaves about 20 degrees or so of tire off the rim. If you were to insert any sort of lever in the center of this section and try to push this over the rim it will break or bend. So what you do is to carefully insert the lever near the center of this where it is easiest to insert and then slide it out as close to the outer edge as you can and then lever on this spot. Then you do it again until the tire is too tight to allow inserting the lever anymore. This remaining portion can usually be pushed over the edge by hand - with your palms.

In order to prevent pinching the tube you must have the tube lightly inflated just so that it will "fill" the open space in the tire without allowing an edge to be caught in between the rim and the level and giving the tube a pinch flat. It takes a little practice to get this inflated enough to leave little to no slack and too much fill which causes the tires to not be pushed on enough before you attempt the levering of it on.

On Saturday, January 21, 2017 at 1:39:33 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-21 12:54, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/21/2017 10:59 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-20 18:08, John B. wrote:


... But you do 83% of that speed on a heavy
clunky mountain bike through the mud so think that you have to poke it
off with a special stick that you carry.

Incredible!


How fast do you go on your road bike? For how long? I can hold 22mph for
half an hour. A friend goes 25mph and when I follow him I am totally
bushed, so I don't know what you find miraculous. A MTB is just a little
heavier and has higher rolling resistance but not a lot. Going 20mph on
one of those is something every somewhat fit rider should do.

What mountain bike tires are you running that have just a little more
rolling resistance than road bike tires?

http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/ indicates roughly twice as much
CRR, ...


... and here is the reason:

http://www.bicyclerollingresistance....-race-exo-2016

Quote " When we look at the results of the rolling resistance test,
rolling resistance of the Ardent Race comes in close to 11% higher at
the most important air pressure of 25 psi / 1.7 bars".
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I run my MTB tires at more than twice that pressure.


... and that's not including the greater losses from tossing your
body+bike mass over rough surfaces. Suspension reduces those losses
compared to a rigid mountain bike, but the losses are still much more
than a road bike on any reasonable road.


Initially I didn't notice too much difference between road bike and MTB
(with the suspension locked out front and rear) but I did loose slightly
more than 1mph in my avergae speed after switching to thick tubes. The
reason became obvious during a break on a cold day. I accidentally
touched the rear tire and found that it had warmed.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Riding my CX bike with 34 mm tires instead of my road bike with 23's I easily stayed with the group I normally ride with. Of course I wouldn't try to stay with the two fast guys, with knobbies, but this was a 40 mile ride over 2500 feet of climbing with the steepest 12% and the majority around 7%.

On 2017-01-21 15:29, wrote:


[tight-fitting tires]


You would normally have problems mounting a folding tire the first
time. What you do it fight it on and then overpressure it to perhaps
140 lbs. This stretches the bead material a slight amount and then
they fit tight but not overly so.


I have a folding tire coming, a CST Conquistare 700c*25. The bead
version doesn't have side wall protection. Beats me why not. The folding
version appears to be 3-ply which would be great.


There is also a technique to mounting them where you push them on
mostly by hand. Starting at the filler side and up both sides so that
it reaches it's tightest opposite the filler.

This leaves about 20 degrees or so of tire off the rim. If you were
to insert any sort of lever in the center of this section and try to
push this over the rim it will break or bend. So what you do is to
carefully insert the lever near the center of this where it is
easiest to insert and then slide it out as close to the outer edge as
you can and then lever on this spot. Then you do it again until the
tire is too tight to allow inserting the lever anymore. This
remaining portion can usually be pushed over the edge by hand - with
your palms.


That broke several levers. At that point the bead is as taut as if it
were pulling a Mack truck. What sometimes worked was to slide the lever
between bead and rim shoulder on the inside, smidgen by smidgen and then
twisting the lever with all the force I can give it.


In order to prevent pinching the tube you must have the tube lightly
inflated just so that it will "fill" the open space in the tire
without allowing an edge to be caught in between the rim and the
level and giving the tube a pinch flat. It takes a little practice to
get this inflated enough to leave little to no slack and too much
fill which causes the tires to not be pushed on enough before you
attempt the levering of it on.


My tubes have 0.120" wall thickness. The whole tire looks almost like
already inflated.

My hope is that I find a tire that is as easy to mount on these rims as
the Vredesteins and others from the good old days. Wire bead or folding,
didn't matter, they all went on in minutes. It's not easy because I also
want a tire as heavy as possible so it will be sturdy. None of this
weight weenie stuff. If it lasts somewhat less than the 2500mi of the
Gatorskins (which I think is excellent for a bicycle tire) that is ok,
provided they go on easy and don't cost too much.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-01-18 19:05, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 5:45:13 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 14:31:51 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/17/2017 1:56 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-17 10:36, jbeattie wrote:


So what your saying is that I pay nothing extra
insurance-wise for owning a bike. It is covered by insurance
that I already own. (: OTOH, there are whole other things
called "auto insurance policies" -- specially for autos! And
they cost a lot! ):


That is the same as saying that welfare costs us nothing.
_Everyone_ is paying for the risk of cycling including home
owners who never ride. Is that fair? I don't think so but
that's the way it is.

Oh, quit the bull**** about the "risks of cycling." There have
been at least five different studies on the risks vs. benefits of
cycling, measured in different ways - for example, health care
dollars spent vs. saved, years of life lost vs. gained, etc.
EVERY study found that cycling is by FAR a net benefit.

So in insurance terms, you've got things backwards. _Everyone_
is getting reduced insurance premiums and reduced health care
costs from cycling, even the people who never ride.

IOW, quit the "Danger! Danger!" implications. You may ride like
an idiot, but even you don't tip the scales in the direction you
claim.


Statista has it that 66.52 Million cyclists while Velonews says
103.7 million. If we use the average, than it is 85 million
cyclists.

I don't find the number of bicycle deaths in 2016 but I did find
"an increase of 13%" so I assume that we can use 720 X 1.13 = 813.

If my figures are accurate then that is bicycle fatality rate of 1
per 104,551 cyclists.

Overall traffic fatalities covering all road users seems to be
57,177 out of some 214 million driving licenses and 85 million
cyclists or say 300 million so the rate is 1 in 57,372.

Yes Sir! Cycling is a dangerous activity!

(although apparently less dangerous than anything else one can do
on the highway :-) -- Cheers,

John B.


How do you treat the fact that a very large number of people only
ride a couple of miles in quiet neighborhoods or bicycle paths vs
almost all automobile miles in dangerous roads?


Many of them know somebody like the guy who sat next to me at one of my
bike brewpubs a few weeks ago. "You are going Green Valley Road to
Cameron Park? I'd never do that!". When I said that the shoulder is wide
enough he said they no longer cycle on roads. They rode on a county road
and got hit by a pickup truck. His wife was run over. Among other things
both her knee joints were smashed beyond repair and she was pieced
together with artificial knees and so on. It took her 10 years just to
be able to pedal again. Now they do not use their road bikes unless
there is a bike path.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 07:42:00 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

When you go on trails, it will. I have had very tightly packed panniers
stuffed out with towels and other things. Two miles down the trail I
opened one to look if I had turned on the cell phone. Everything was
upside down. It is like a roller coaster in there.

You've got to leave it no room to wiggle.

Perhaps the clue is that I use wire panniers, which are rigid and
rectangular. Things would have to deform a *lot* to rotate.

I've learned to tie the handles of my bag of bags together. One day,
in front of Panda Express, I balanced my bag of bags on the other
pannier while I made space in my cooler for my chocolate-chunk cookie,
and it blew away. I calmly walked after it and when I'd nearly caught
it, a bag fell out and it picked up speed. I plucked the errant bag
off a convenient hedge and commenced to run. The faster the bag
rolled, the more bags fell out, and the more bags fell out, the faster
it rolled. I ended up chasing the thing across two parking lots and a
Meijer exit, and up somebody's driveway, where the landscaping finally
stopped what was left of it. Quite a lot of litter escaped
permanently.

It was embarrassing, but at least none of it blew onto US 30.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

On 1/21/2017 8:21 PM, Joerg wrote:


Many of them know somebody like the guy who sat next to me at one of my
bike brewpubs a few weeks ago. "You are going Green Valley Road to
Cameron Park? I'd never do that!". When I said that the shoulder is wide
enough he said they no longer cycle on roads. They rode on a county road
and got hit by a pickup truck. His wife was run over. Among other things
both her knee joints were smashed beyond repair and she was pieced
together with artificial knees and so on. It took her 10 years just to
be able to pedal again. Now they do not use their road bikes unless
there is a bike path.

I'm sure that suffering terrible injuries in a bike crash could have a
terrible psychological effect. But using that to "prove" that riding is
dangerous is rather silly.

Any look at national statistics will show that there are FAR more such
incidents happening to motorists, to pedestrians, to motorcyclists, even
to people walking around their homes. Yet they generate far less fear
mongering.

The difference is primarily this: Bicycling is unusual in America. So
when people hear that that 35,000 motorists die every year, they think
"Oh, too bad... but let me answer my cell phone now, because it might be
the baby sitter." When they hear that 750 bicyclists die each year
(half through their own fault) they think "OMIGOD, 750?? I'D NEVER RIDE
A BIKE ON THE ROAD!"

And of course, you're enthusiastically reinforcing that nonsense.

There are something like 10 million miles ridden per bike fatality in
the U.S. Every study on the subject has concluded that the benefits of
bicycling FAR outweigh it's tiny risks. Cut the "Danger! Danger!" crap.

--
- Frank Krygowski