Stronger rubber cement?

On Sunday, January 22, 2017 at 9:47:46 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/22/2017 6:45 PM, James wrote:
On 20/01/17 07:35, Joerg wrote:


Yeah, but you might come upon other people who are. If you never venture
far into the wilderness you may never encounter that situation and are
probably unaware of how dangerous it can be. No cell phone signal, no
roads, no nothing, just the relentlessly scorching sun and lots of miles
to get yourself and the victim out.



To that I say welcome to Australia. In addition to relentless scorching
sun and miles of unforgiving nothingness, we give you such critters as
the inland taipan, just to keep you on your toes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inland_taipan

I like snakes, but no thanks!

Years ago, I was leading a club mountain bike ride along an abandoned
railroad route. At a certain point, we came upon a black rat snake,
maybe four feet long, that I was able to catch and hold.

The response was interesting. About five or six riders came over as
close as they could to see the snake; about five or six others got as
far away as they could, as fast as they could.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank rides the median

On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 11:56:03 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Not surprising! Has anyone here ever seen any suggestion work for Joerg?

And it's not surprising that you couldn't resist re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-posting a comment that was neither interesting nor informative the
first time.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net

On 1/23/2017 9:40 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 11:56:03 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Not surprising! Has anyone here ever seen any suggestion work for Joerg?

And it's not surprising that you couldn't resist re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-posting a comment that was neither interesting nor informative the
first time.

Hmm. When your buffer goes empty, does it usually trigger such wildly
extreme overcounts? The system may be failing.

Yes, I (and others) have pointed out before that nothing works for
Joerg. When Joerg continually repeats "That doesn't work," some of us
will probably continue to respond.

But I'm sorry you don't find that as interesting as, say, your long
essays on the optimal use of crumpled plastic bags in wire bike baskets.
Or the proper style of rubber bands to keep one's pajamas out of the
chain. Or patterns for home-knit earlobe covers, or whatever. We each
have our interests, Joy.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 8:06:56 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/23/2017 9:40 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 11:56:03 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Not surprising! Has anyone here ever seen any suggestion work for Joerg?

And it's not surprising that you couldn't resist re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-
re-posting a comment that was neither interesting nor informative the
first time.

Hmm. When your buffer goes empty, does it usually trigger such wildly
extreme overcounts? The system may be failing.

Yes, I (and others) have pointed out before that nothing works for
Joerg. When Joerg continually repeats "That doesn't work," some of us
will probably continue to respond.

But I'm sorry you don't find that as interesting as, say, your long
essays on the optimal use of crumpled plastic bags in wire bike baskets.
Or the proper style of rubber bands to keep one's pajamas out of the
chain. Or patterns for home-knit earlobe covers, or whatever. We each
have our interests, Joy.


--
- Frank Krygowski

And we're all sure that you have no respect for Jeorg's opinions.

considered Sat, 21 Jan 2017 15:29:23 -0800 (PST)
the perfect time to write:

On Saturday, January 21, 2017 at 12:29:33 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-18 14:50, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Tue, 17 Jan 2017
10:56:15 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2017-01-17 10:36, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 9:47:32 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-17 08:21, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


What I pay in car insurance annually would buy me an all new
bike every year. Skip cleaning the chain -- just put last year's
bike out with the garbage. Plus, my bikes are reliable. I
reliably change the chain when the wear indicator indicates and
change the tires when they are worn out. I fix a flat now and
then and do other routine maintenance. It's not like some
monumental inconvenience, and if flats were epidemic, then I
would switch to a hard-case tire. I would not agonize over the
fact that the 20lb tire on my Subaru goes flat less often.


My point is that when I say I am going to be there for an
important meeting at 11:30am I don't want to leave half an hour
earlier just in case I get a flat. And good luck getting that
Gatorksin tire back onto one of my rims.

If it takes you half an hour to fix a flat, you have other problems
that need to be addressed.


Yeah, I could get new rims and/or different tires. That is why finding a
suitable tire isn't easy. You are welcome to come over and try getting a
Gatorskin onto my rims.

It seems to me that the problem is with either your rims or your
technique.


The rims are shallow. The problem is that some tires run too small in
the bead.


I've changed Gatorskins without levers or difficulty, right up to the
stage where my arthritis was a serious problem for normal riding, or
even holding a pen.
Therefore I would suggest that any other tyre you try will have the
same problem.


As I have written that is not the case. All the tires I mounted in the
80's and 90's went one with ease.


Heck, if you think your Gatorskins are difficult, I wonder how hard
you'd find a Marathon Plus on an ISO 406 (20") rim!
I've done that too, and although I did need levers to remove the tyre,
it wasn't particularly difficult or time consuming - about 10 minutes,
mostly spent prepping the tube for patching and checking the inside of
the cover for debris and/or penetrating objects (although that was
done while waiting for the rubber cement to dry enough for the patch
to be applied). I could have halved the time by using a CO2 inflator,
at a guess - but I prefer a pump, which doesn't run out or leave
waste.


Same here. A large pump at home and a Pocket Rocket for the road.


Your half hour tube change on a road bike is about the time I'd have
expected to take to replace the tyre on the inside wheel of a pair on
the drive axle or semi-trailer of an articulated heavy truck, which
I've also had to do in the past. The tyre, not the whole wheel - that
part just takes 10 minutes. So 20 minutes for the tyre swap, although
admittedly that is with split rims (although they are in my experience
universal on wheels designed for that duty).


I helped a friend mount a motorcycle tire onto the rim. That only took
minutes. Not having a compressor with large enough volume he pushed the
bead back, spritzed starter fluid in there, lit a match ... *BAM* ...
threw a wet towel over it to douse remaining flame, aired it up, done.


Certainly, the variability in arrival time from punctures on a bicycle
is FAR less than the variability in arrival time in a car due to
traffic - that is one of the major reasons people choose to commute by
bicycle!


Not around here.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

You would normally have problems mounting a folding tire the first time. What you do it fight it on and then overpressure it to perhaps 140 lbs. This stretches the bead material a slight amount and then they fit tight but not overly so.

There is also a technique to mounting them where you push them on mostly by hand. Starting at the filler side and up both sides so that it reaches it's tightest opposite the filler.

Wrong way around - if you start opposite the valve (which you for some
obscure reason call the "filler") means that you can get the bead
right down into the well. If you start AT the valve, the valve itself
gets in the way of doing that, and gives you less slack for fitting
the final portion. The only bit that never needs to get down into the
well is the last bit, so it makes good sense to make that the same
part as the valve!

This leaves about 20 degrees or so of tire off the rim. If you were to insert any sort of lever in the center of this section and try to push this over the rim it will break or bend. So what you do is to carefully insert the lever near the center of this where it is easiest to insert and then slide it out as close to the outer edge as you can and then lever on this spot. Then you do it again until the tire is too tight to allow inserting the lever anymore. This remaining portion can usually be pushed over the edge by hand - with your palms.

I have never needed to use a lever to fit a tyre, only to remove one.
That includes tubed and tubeless motorcycle tyres, car tyres, and some
supposedly notorious cycle tyres like Marathon Plus on small wheels.
Truck (and I mean large goods vehicles, not pickups) wheels are almost
always a split rim design, so you just fit the tyre to the wheel
before fitting the removable side of the rim.
To break the bead away from the rim (if it isn't already loose) on a
tubeless tyre you just drive another wheel over it - btdt,gtts!

In order to prevent pinching the tube you must have the tube lightly inflated just so that it will "fill" the open space in the tire without allowing an edge to be caught in between the rim and the level and giving the tube a pinch flat. It takes a little practice to get this inflated enough to leave little to no slack and too much fill which causes the tires to not be pushed on enough before you attempt the levering of it on.

That is the tricky bit, but as you say, it comes with experience.
Too much pressure pushes the bead out of the well in the rim centre
when you need it to stay there while you get the last part of the bead
over the edge of the rim.
Too little pressure (and you only need just enough too give the tube
it's proper shape) will, as you say, allow the tube to get pinched
between bead and rim.

John B. considered Sat, 21 Jan 2017 07:00:11
+0700 the perfect time to write:

On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 18:12:21 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/20/2017 3:43 PM, jbeattie wrote:

I have hydraulic discs on a Roubaix and cable discs on my CX commuter bike. I've never gone OTB because of my brakes. The last time I went OTB it was with ordinary caliper brakes and because my son had crashed in front of me on a wet descent.

The hydraulic brakes are powerful and they do take some use to understand. Front braking is not all that much different from a good dual pivot; however, rear braking is much more positive, and that is where you have to avoid ham-handedness. This takes about 90 seconds to figure out, and most rear wheel skids are controllable during the learning period.

I think I might have problems if I had two similar bikes, one with
caliper brakes and one with hydraulic discs - especially if the disc
bike wasn't ridden as frequently.

My riding style doesn't involve much emergency braking - or really, much
speed control on downhills. I like the fast coasting. I think that if
an emergency braking event occurred on a disc bike, I might overreact.

The scariest braking event I can recall happened about 1.5 years ago,
IIRC. It was a club ride through our large, somewhat hilly metropark,
and on one long 30+ mph downhill, I coasted off the front as usual.
Suddenly two fawns appeared from the woods and one trotted out in front
of me. I had never braked that hard and suddenly from such a high
speed, and I felt like I was on the edge of control. That's with well
set up cantilevers that I'm very, very used to. I suspect with discs,
I'd have gone down.

I'm not so sure, at least if you'd had sufficient use to become
accustomed to them.
Most of my really extreme braking experience on two wheelers is from
motorcycles, mostly because you are generally going much faster.
On all the hydraulically braked ones, I upgraded hoses and pads over
original, and on the two Z650s I upgraded from single to twin disk.
By using less pressure at the lever, you can develop finer control
than if the lever pressure required is near your physical limit.
But it DOES take time and experience to learn the right reflexes to
manage the power of such brakes as I had on the Z650s. I got so I
preferred that level of front brake power, although the original
reason for doubling the disks was to reduce fork twist on braking.

I once made the mistake of lending one to a mate who had to go to the
next town for some parts to repair his motorcycle.
I warned him that the full fairing (which he'd never had the
experience of riding behind - which shows how long ago this took
place) would mean he would need to watch his speed, as the lack of
wind pressure reduces the sensation of speed, and also about the power
of the front brake.
When he got back, he was shaking a bit, so I asked him what had
happened. Apparently, as he got out of town he accelerated to what
felt like a reasonable speed, then remembered my warning and checked
the speedometer, to find he was doing 95mph - over 1.5 times the 60mph
speed limit on that road (at 1.5x it's a ban if you get caught). At
that moment, he spotted a police car in a lay-by ahead, so grabbed the
front brake! Thankfully, the road was dry, and he was able to recover
from the rear wheel rocketing skywards before passing the police car!
He was frightened enough to barely use the front brake for the rest of
the trip


Both the cable and hydraulic brakes beat the hell out of calipers in rain and slop, like the snow slop I've been trying to ride in. In dry weather, any good rim brake will do the job. I don't see any reason for hydraulic discs on high-end race bikes that will never be ridden in the rain, except maybe to avoid over-heating CF rims -- which could be a real problem with tubulars, although I'm just speculating. Personally, I think its just marketing.

No argument there. I'm lucky to be able to avoid riding in those
conditions.

Somehow I suspect that ultimate bicycle stopping ability is less
dependent on types of brakes and far more dependent on tire-pavement
friction coefficient.

And weight distribution.
Once you have brakes powerful enough, and front tyre grip good enough,
to lift the rear wheel, you are at the absolute limit, and actually
adding some weight at the back, ideally low down (maybe in rear
panniers), can actually allow you to stop more quickly!
Removing weight from high up and forward is of course even more
effective, but isn't usually easy - the limit in that respect is
usually just to slide back on the saddle as much as you can.

The only bike I've ever had (including motorcycles) that I've been
unable to left the rear wheel on is a recumbent, and on THAT, the
braking limit is tyre grip.

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 11:06:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Hmm. When your buffer goes empty, does it usually trigger such wildly
extreme overcounts?

It's just that I've been holding in that complaint for a
loooooooooooooooong time.

As the rules of civilized discourse require, I shall say no more on
this topic.

--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.

GNAW filler first at belly button

WHY WHY WHY ?


caws thumbs left or thumbs right positions nay CONTROLS filler as you go around to your toes.

pump air into the tube ....ura pinchng tube at bead ? wow is this ham handed

..spray CRC silicone on bead area going in last.

place tire tool into rim/bead n hook....rpt rpt rpt with thumbs pushing around tire wall before insertion

Frank Krygowski considered Sun, 22 Jan 2017
11:56:03 -0500 the perfect time to write:

On 1/22/2017 10:50 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-21 18:11, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 07:42:00 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

When you go on trails, it will. I have had very tightly packed panniers
stuffed out with towels and other things. Two miles down the trail I
opened one to look if I had turned on the cell phone. Everything was
upside down. It is like a roller coaster in there.

You've got to leave it no room to wiggle.


Doesn't work.

Not surprising! Has anyone here ever seen any suggestion work for Joerg?

It's just another thing that we can add to the ever-growing list of
"stuff that Joerg doesn't know how to do properly".

Just for Joerg's information, the level of shaking experienced by
things packed properly into a pannier on a bicycle (especially as he
is so enthusiastic about full suspension) is as nothing compared to
what cartons of goods go through when being handled by contract
carriers, the staff of who's warehouses are often minimum wage and the
prevalent attitude is that if the box is marked "fragile" then it
must've been particularly well packed, and can therefore be abused
even more!
Most people will have seen airline baggage handlers at work, where
cases slip off trolleys or conveyors and get thrown back on - now
think what happens when similar people are working all day with
anonymous looking beige boxes completely out of sight of the public!
Throw in the harsh suspension of most large goods vehicles, which
leaves anything in the back bouncing around with LOTS of space to
gather momentum before it slams into the walls, doors, or even roof (I
**** you not).

Yet an early job I had when I left school was to pack custom made
laboratory glassware for delivery by carrier, and none of that ever
got broken, despite coming in some of he most awkward shapes
imaginable.

Later on, I worked for some of those carriers, so have seen it first
hand.

Phil Lee wrote:

:Just for Joerg's information, the level of shaking experienced by
:things packed properly into a pannier on a bicycle (especially as he
:is so enthusiastic about full suspension) is as nothing compared to
:what cartons of goods go through when being handled by contract
:carriers, the staff of who's warehouses are often minimum wage and the
revalent attitude is that if the box is marked "fragile" then it
:must've been particularly well packed, and can therefore be abused
:even more!
:Most people will have seen airline baggage handlers at work, where
:cases slip off trolleys or conveyors and get thrown back on - now
:think what happens when similar people are working all day with
:anonymous looking beige boxes completely out of sight of the public!
:Throw in the harsh suspension of most large goods vehicles, which
:leaves anything in the back bouncing around with LOTS of space to
:gather momentum before it slams into the walls, doors, or even roof (I
:**** you not).

:Yet an early job I had when I left school was to pack custom made
:laboratory glassware for delivery by carrier, and none of that ever
:got broken, despite coming in some of he most awkward shapes
:imaginable.

:Later on, I worked for some of those carriers, so have seen it first
:hand.

There was a harddrive warehouse severely damaged by an earthquake
(loma prieta, maybe?) a number of years ago. The company said
"everything was packed to be shipped UPS, so nothing was damaged when
the building collapsed on it. "

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