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Your flavor of Western democracy may matter less than time to workout the kinks



 
 
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  #21  
Old February 9th 17, 02:43 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Your flavor of Western democracy may matter less than time to work out the kinks

On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 12:48:43 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 2/8/2017 12:33 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 7, 2017 at 4:31:02 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 7 Feb 2017 06:41:15 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 7, 2017 at 6:02:14 AM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
On 07/02/2017 8:16 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
Churchill, who was half an American, and very much at home in the States, said that democracy was the worst of all governing systems, except for all the others. Most well-travelled, thoughtful people agree.

Churchill also said that most people (probably meaning of middle/professional classes but not in politics) admire democracy until they speak to one of the voters who have the numbers to change the government. (I've given a very long paraphrase because you have to understand the context and the nuances.)

About Slow Johnny, Ridesalot Duane's remarks about the Canadian and British systems in the rec.bicycles.tech thread "Bill would ban bicyclists from most 2-lane roads in Montana", you might want to consider for a moment that the British and their colonials had about twice as long to work the kinks out of their system as Americans have, and they haven't avoided coming to blows either (though admittedly their shooting civil wars are half a millennium in the past), and they also have their extreme partisans (for instance the destructive British Labour Left, supposedly wiped out by Tony Blair, who simply packaged Mrs Thatcher's policies in left-wing language to move the party rightward and right into the middle classes, but now resurgent under Jeremy Corbyn).

There's another system that works, though often through deadlock, but it requires a great deal of civilized patience from everyone involved. It is proportional representation. The leading contemporary small-scale system (for ease of studying) is that in Israel, where one can daily see the advantages and disadvantages of proportional representation. Unfortunately, in the larger systems, of which the European Union government is the nastiest example, and several European countries are failed examples, proportional representation eventually leads to passionless, technocratic governments without any philosophy to distinguish the centre-left parties contesting elections. Passion, such as stirred up in parts of their electorates by Muslim immigration, terrorism and rapes, comes as a shock to these technocrats (it is difficult to believe how much they assume a sort of Chicom groupthink is the norm until you see their shock at a breach of the norm), much like Trump came as a shock to
the
complacent, limp Left in the US.

Andre Jute
At home wherever I land



The American system can only work when Congress represents their
constituents. When a Democrat or Republican congressman votes along
party lines in opposition to the interest of those that elected them
then they need to be voted out. And they need to know that this will
happen.

When Congress can vote strictly along party lines without regard to why
they were elected in the first place, it's not much different than the
parliamentary model with a majority government. The president is
elected separately but without congressional support he is not going to
get much done, recent floods of executive orders notwithstanding.

What seems different to me is that these guys on both sides keep getting
reelected in spite of what they do. I assume this is because people are
too lazy to research what actually occurs in their government and rely
on sound bites from their favorite news channel or what they can see on
Facebook etc.

The really strange thing now is that Trump got in because a lot of
people are tired of the status quo yet Congress is still Republican.

I'm done with political discussions here. If anyone has something to
say about bikes or cycling...

Well, I can say that I want to get back on my bike. I've had this nasty cold, preceded by the week-long snow, preceded by my fall-related hand fracture and surgery. I'm in the worst shape I've ever been. Waaaah.

The weather this year has totally sucked. Snow was predicted for last Friday, but it ended up as 2-3" of rain in a 24hr period. If that had fallen as snow, we'd be up to our eyeballs. My son is getting better weather in Salt Lake City.

Some guy got killed yesterday, hooked by a truck while riding in a bike lane.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/i...ts_man_on.html

This points out the evil dark-side of bike lanes and drivers who don't understand that bike lanes are "lanes," viz., that another vehicle is or could be operating to the right. Another tip is beware of box trucks and cement trucks. They have a real penchant for squashing cyclists in Portland.

I've also concluded that I entirely agree with Joerg. America should have a vast network of separate bike facilities that go everywhere. Let's start today! I am issuing an executive order to all of my agency heads instructing them to do everything in their power to build separate bike facilities everywhere. I am also instructing them to do everything in their power to make sure every man, woman and child in the US gets his or her own pony -- and a pizza.

-- Jay Beattie.

Some time ago I calculated what the U.S. would have to do in order to
provide the same services to bicyclists as The Netherlands. On a mile
to mile basis they will have to build a million miles of bikeways.

I can't estimate costs for this other than to comment that some 670
miles of the U.S. - Mexican border has been fenced at a cost of 3.9
million dollars per mile. Based on that, admittedly very low end
guess, a million miles of bikeways might cost 5,820,895 million
dollars.

It might be noted that total income tax paid in 2015 was some
1,231,911 million dollars and the average interest on all government
bonds is 1.97%.
--
Cheers,

John B.


John - your value of income taxes sound like something from WW I. We paid some $3.25 BILLION in 2015.


Not really.

Personal income tax revenue runs about $1,480,000,000,000.00
($1.48 trillion)
That somewhat over $1,231,911,000,000.00
($1.23 trillion)

But $3,250,000,000.00 is a ridiculous number, off by several
magnitudes. We first hit the mid-$3 billions in 1918 (after
Wilson's war taxes, a big increase from 1917)

Total US Federal revenue runs something around $3.18
trillion, most of which is wasted, as always.

https://www.nationalpriorities.org/b...-101/revenues/



Well,
https://taxfoundation.org/summary-la...a-2015-update/
says that income taxes collected in 2015 were "paid $1.23 trillion in
income taxes".

IN U.S. usage I am told that a trillion is 1,000,000,000,000.
1,000,000,000,000 x 1.23 is 1,230,000,000,000 /1,000,000 = 1,230,000

Perhaps the web site got it wrong?
--
Cheers,

John B.

Ads
  #22  
Old February 9th 17, 03:07 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Your flavor of Western democracy may matter less than time to work out the kinks

On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 13:50:52 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 2/8/2017 1:12 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 8, 2017 at 10:48:42 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/8/2017 12:33 PM,
wrote:
On Tuesday, February 7, 2017 at 4:31:02 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 7 Feb 2017 06:41:15 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 7, 2017 at 6:02:14 AM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
On 07/02/2017 8:16 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
Churchill, who was half an American, and very much at home in the States, said that democracy was the worst of all governing systems, except for all the others. Most well-travelled, thoughtful people agree.

Churchill also said that most people (probably meaning of middle/professional classes but not in politics) admire democracy until they speak to one of the voters who have the numbers to change the government. (I've given a very long paraphrase because you have to understand the context and the nuances.)

About Slow Johnny, Ridesalot Duane's remarks about the Canadian and British systems in the rec.bicycles.tech thread "Bill would ban bicyclists from most 2-lane roads in Montana", you might want to consider for a moment that the British and their colonials had about twice as long to work the kinks out of their system as Americans have, and they haven't avoided coming to blows either (though admittedly their shooting civil wars are half a millennium in the past), and they also have their extreme partisans (for instance the destructive British Labour Left, supposedly wiped out by Tony Blair, who simply packaged Mrs Thatcher's policies in left-wing language to move the party rightward and right into the middle classes, but now resurgent under Jeremy Corbyn).

There's another system that works, though often through deadlock, but it requires a great deal of civilized patience from everyone involved. It is proportional representation. The leading contemporary small-scale system (for ease of studying) is that in Israel, where one can daily see the advantages and disadvantages of proportional representation. Unfortunately, in the larger systems, of which the European Union government is the nastiest example, and several European countries are failed examples, proportional representation eventually leads to passionless, technocratic governments without any philosophy to distinguish the centre-left parties contesting elections. Passion, such as stirred up in parts of their electorates by Muslim immigration, terrorism and rapes, comes as a shock to these technocrats (it is difficult to believe how much they assume a sort of Chicom groupthink is the norm until you see their shock at a breach of the norm), much like Trump came as a shock t

o
the
complacent, limp Left in the US.

Andre Jute
At home wherever I land



The American system can only work when Congress represents their
constituents. When a Democrat or Republican congressman votes along
party lines in opposition to the interest of those that elected them
then they need to be voted out. And they need to know that this will
happen.

When Congress can vote strictly along party lines without regard to why
they were elected in the first place, it's not much different than the
parliamentary model with a majority government. The president is
elected separately but without congressional support he is not going to
get much done, recent floods of executive orders notwithstanding.

What seems different to me is that these guys on both sides keep getting
reelected in spite of what they do. I assume this is because people are
too lazy to research what actually occurs in their government and rely
on sound bites from their favorite news channel or what they can see on
Facebook etc.

The really strange thing now is that Trump got in because a lot of
people are tired of the status quo yet Congress is still Republican.

I'm done with political discussions here. If anyone has something to
say about bikes or cycling...

Well, I can say that I want to get back on my bike. I've had this nasty cold, preceded by the week-long snow, preceded by my fall-related hand fracture and surgery. I'm in the worst shape I've ever been. Waaaah.

The weather this year has totally sucked. Snow was predicted for last Friday, but it ended up as 2-3" of rain in a 24hr period. If that had fallen as snow, we'd be up to our eyeballs. My son is getting better weather in Salt Lake City.

Some guy got killed yesterday, hooked by a truck while riding in a bike lane.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/i...ts_man_on.html

This points out the evil dark-side of bike lanes and drivers who don't understand that bike lanes are "lanes," viz., that another vehicle is or could be operating to the right. Another tip is beware of box trucks and cement trucks. They have a real penchant for squashing cyclists in Portland.

I've also concluded that I entirely agree with Joerg. America should have a vast network of separate bike facilities that go everywhere. Let's start today! I am issuing an executive order to all of my agency heads instructing them to do everything in their power to build separate bike facilities everywhere. I am also instructing them to do everything in their power to make sure every man, woman and child in the US gets his or her own pony -- and a pizza.

-- Jay Beattie.

Some time ago I calculated what the U.S. would have to do in order to
provide the same services to bicyclists as The Netherlands. On a mile
to mile basis they will have to build a million miles of bikeways.

I can't estimate costs for this other than to comment that some 670
miles of the U.S. - Mexican border has been fenced at a cost of 3.9
million dollars per mile. Based on that, admittedly very low end
guess, a million miles of bikeways might cost 5,820,895 million
dollars.

It might be noted that total income tax paid in 2015 was some
1,231,911 million dollars and the average interest on all government
bonds is 1.97%.
--
Cheers,

John B.

John - your value of income taxes sound like something from WW I. We paid some $3.25 BILLION in 2015.


Not really.

Personal income tax revenue runs about $1,480,000,000,000.00
($1.48 trillion)
That somewhat over $1,231,911,000,000.00
($1.23 trillion)
But $3,250,000,000.00 is a ridiculous number, off by several
magnitudes. We first hit the mid-$3 billions in 1918 (after
Wilson's war taxes, a big increase from 1917)

Total US Federal revenue runs something around $3.18
trillion, most of which is wasted, as always.

https://www.nationalpriorities.org/b...-101/revenues/


Everywhere you look you get different numbers:

https://taxfoundation.org/summary-la...a-2015-update/ = $1,23 Trllion


As with most accounting, I suppose a lot of this is
interpretive. Maybe one's gross and the other's net after
refunds/fees fines? I don't know.

At any rate we now agree it's $1-point-something trillion.


I'm glad we agree :-)

But you missed the good part about "some 670 miles of the U.S. -
Mexican border has been fenced at a cost of 3.9 million dollars per
mile." Although I was wrong and the actual number is about $3,582,089
a mile :-) Or about $678 per foot or in other words $56 an inch.

To add bicycle context:
The last bike frame I built was a 1 meter ( 39.37 inches) wheel base.
Or about $2,204.72 at government prices :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #23  
Old February 9th 17, 04:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,422
Default Your flavor of Western democracy may matter less than time towork out the kinks

On Thursday, February 9, 2017 at 2:07:34 AM UTC, John B. wrote:

... some 670 miles of the U.S. -
Mexican border has been fenced at a cost of ... about $3,582,089
a mile :-) Or about $678 per foot or in other words $56 an inch.

To add bicycle context:
The last bike frame I built was a 1 meter ( 39.37 inches) wheel base.
Or about $2,204.72 at government prices :-)


My bicycle
http://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute'sUtopiaKranich.pdf
from a German firm described as the Rolls-Royce of custom builders, fitted with the best of everything, coach lined by a living legend of cycle-building,
http://coolmainpress.com/ajwriting/c...by-volkswagen/
cost around the same per meter as the gub'mint's wall. And I can ride my bike.

I can without blinking name ten bicycles that cost more than a couple of grand per meter, and are considered good value by people not known as wastrels. Several contributors here very likely own similar bikes. So I don't think much of your metric, Slow Johnny.

Andre Jute
Discriminating
  #24  
Old February 9th 17, 05:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,422
Default Your flavor of Western democracy may matter less than time towork out the kinks

On Wednesday, February 8, 2017 at 10:09:29 PM UTC, W. Wesley Groleau wrote:
On 2/7/17 3:02 PM, Duane wrote:
The American system can only work when Congress represents their
constituents.


I know that's not what you mean but that can be mistaken for a justification of pork.

Andre Jute
Just saying
  #25  
Old February 9th 17, 05:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,900
Default Your flavor of Western democracy may matter less than time towork out the kinks

On 09/02/2017 10:59 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, February 9, 2017 at 2:07:34 AM UTC, John B. wrote:

... some 670 miles of the U.S. -
Mexican border has been fenced at a cost of ... about $3,582,089
a mile :-) Or about $678 per foot or in other words $56 an inch.

To add bicycle context:
The last bike frame I built was a 1 meter ( 39.37 inches) wheel base.
Or about $2,204.72 at government prices :-)


My bicycle
http://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute'sUtopiaKranich.pdf
from a German firm described as the Rolls-Royce of custom builders, fitted with the best of everything, coach lined by a living legend of cycle-building,
http://coolmainpress.com/ajwriting/c...by-volkswagen/
cost around the same per meter as the gub'mint's wall. And I can ride my bike.

I can without blinking name ten bicycles that cost more than a couple of grand per meter, and are considered good value by people not known as wastrels. Several contributors here very likely own similar bikes. So I don't think much of your metric, Slow Johnny.




https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bi...rameset/106286

Available Wheelbase: 970mm, 970mm, 978mm, 986mm, 1003mm, 1013mm.

So roughly 38.9 - 39.88 inches.

  #26  
Old February 9th 17, 05:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,900
Default Your flavor of Western democracy may matter less than time towork out the kinks

On 09/02/2017 11:01 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, February 8, 2017 at 10:09:29 PM UTC, W. Wesley Groleau wrote:
On 2/7/17 3:02 PM, Duane wrote:
The American system can only work when Congress represents their
constituents.


I know that's not what you mean but that can be mistaken for a justification of pork.


True.



  #27  
Old February 9th 17, 06:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,422
Default Your flavor of Western democracy may matter less than time towork out the kinks

On Thursday, February 9, 2017 at 4:23:45 PM UTC, Duane wrote:
On 09/02/2017 10:59 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, February 9, 2017 at 2:07:34 AM UTC, John B. wrote:

... some 670 miles of the U.S. -
Mexican border has been fenced at a cost of ... about $3,582,089
a mile :-) Or about $678 per foot or in other words $56 an inch.

To add bicycle context:
The last bike frame I built was a 1 meter ( 39.37 inches) wheel base.
Or about $2,204.72 at government prices :-)


My bicycle
http://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute'sUtopiaKranich.pdf
from a German firm described as the Rolls-Royce of custom builders, fitted with the best of everything, coach lined by a living legend of cycle-building,
http://coolmainpress.com/ajwriting/c...by-volkswagen/
cost around the same per meter as the gub'mint's wall. And I can ride my bike.

I can without blinking name ten bicycles that cost more than a couple of grand per meter, and are considered good value by people not known as wastrels. Several contributors here very likely own similar bikes. So I don't think much of your metric, Slow Johnny.




https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bi...rameset/106286

Available Wheelbase: 970mm, 970mm, 978mm, 986mm, 1003mm, 1013mm.

So roughly 38.9 - 39.88 inches.


The economics of bikes today is such that their prices, compared to back when cycling was a workingman's preoccupation, are obscene.

Back when Jobst died, it occurred to me that I had been lax in not questioning him while he was alive about the economic aspects of his work in bicycle components, and what he knew of the economics of mountain bike development, the developers of which were his mates.

Andre Jute
Omnivorous curiosity
 




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