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#11
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Your thumb is probably more accurate
I actually rely on my thumb to check tire pressure when I repair a flat on
the road, since I don't carry a mechanical pressure gauge when I ride. My thumb gauging technique is accurate enough. I find my thumb virtually useless for checking tire pressure, especially after laboring a while to inflate one on the road. The problem is that anything over 80psi or so feels "hard." What I find works much better, assuming both front & rear tires are the same type & width, is to "ping" the tire and see if they both sound the same. Or, but a bit less accurate, "calibrate" my thumb by seeing how the other (presumably correctly inflated) tire feels, then checking the one just inflated. But thumb alone, without a reference point, just doesn't work for me. Especially after having just inflated a tire. I'll always think it's got more air than it actually does. Wishful thinking, no doubt, adds to it. --Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA "Tom Nakashima" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... These tests need to be viewed in context. First comes inflation with pump having and easily readable and accurate gauge. Then comes the ride on which that pressure is assessed. The next day, assuming a reasonable inner tube is used, the tire should again be ridable unless there is a leak. A thumb or bounce test will reveal whether one of the tires got a leak on last use, not the precise pressure... that doesn't matter anyway. Jobst Brandt I actually rely on my thumb to check tire pressure when I repair a flat on the road, since I don't carry a mechanical pressure gauge when I ride. My thumb gauging technique is accurate enough. We ran a recent test on the road when I had flattened on my rear tire. One of the riders had a tire pressure gauge. I told him I didn't need one, I use my thumb. He said; "Let's see how accurate you are?" After I repaired and pumped up the flatten tube/tire, I used my thumb to feel the "non-flatten front" tire, then thumbed my rear tire and felt I was a little low. I pumped it up a little more until the rear tire pressure felt like the front tire pressure, by using my thumb as a gauge. We then put the mechanical tire pressure gauge to both tires and they were within a pound of eachother. -tom |
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#12
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Your thumb is probably more accurate
Results? I was surprised to find that all the pencil gages were much
better than the dials. At true 30, they read 31, 31 and 32. The Zefal read 39, and the Nashbar read 36. At 90.5 true psi, the Nashbar read 95. Last time we did a check on pressure gauges on pumps, we found them to be far more accurate at the higher end of the scale (80-130psi) than at the lower end. And, interestingly, it seemed like they were the furthest-off right around 30psi. We haven't done this experiment for quite some time though, so I don't really know if current gauges are better or worse than before. --Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA wrote in message ... On Jan 30, 5:44 pm, wrote: These tests need to be viewed in context. First comes inflation with pump having and easily readable and accurate gauge. Then comes the ride on which that pressure is assessed. The next day, assuming a reasonable inner tube is used, the tire should again be ridable unless there is a leak. A thumb or bounce test will reveal whether one of the tires got a leak on last use, not the precise pressure... that doesn't matter anyway. Riding the bicycle on successive days without topping off pressure will reveal what a 85psi tire does in comparison to a 100psi one. That it was 85psi will be revealed when topping off a tire that was at the lower end of acceptable pressure. Again, the pump has a gauge. Cutting all this a laboratory analysis is misplaced as I see it. I'm only being practical with my daily ride. The sound of the bounce tells me whether I need more precise scrutiny. It doesn't tell me what the pressure is unless it is "hard". Regarding accuracy: I recently used a dead weight pressure gage calibrator to test three pencil-style gages, one plastic Zefal dial- type gage (presta & shraeder head), and the dial-type gage built into my floor pump (Nashbar brand). The pencil gages varied in construction, from nice heavy-feeling metal to flimsy-feeling plastic. Unfortunately, I was able to test only the floor pump at 90 true psi. All gages were tested at 30 true psi. Results? I was surprised to find that all the pencil gages were much better than the dials. At true 30, they read 31, 31 and 32. The Zefal read 39, and the Nashbar read 36. At 90.5 true psi, the Nashbar read 95. I assume the Nashbar is a true bourdon tube gage. If so, it's pretty easy to calibrate - but it's easier to just remember to add about 5 extra psi. The Zefal is a disappointment, and it's not obvious how to take it apart to improve it. Second point: Of course, "when topping off" a tire, the unpressurized volume in the pump normally reduces the tire's pressure. A gage on a floor pump like mine gives an initial reading lower than what the tire actually was. - Frank Krygowski |
#13
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Your thumb is probably more accurate
"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote in message ... I actually rely on my thumb to check tire pressure when I repair a flat on the road, since I don't carry a mechanical pressure gauge when I ride. My thumb gauging technique is accurate enough. I find my thumb virtually useless for checking tire pressure, especially after laboring a while to inflate one on the road. The problem is that anything over 80psi or so feels "hard." What I find works much better, assuming both front & rear tires are the same type & width, is to "ping" the tire and see if they both sound the same. Or, but a bit less accurate, "calibrate" my thumb by seeing how the other (presumably correctly inflated) tire feels, then checking the one just inflated. May I ask, how do you "ping" the tire? I think I would use the bounce test over "pinging" a tire, unless you have a good method for "pinging". But thumb alone, without a reference point, just doesn't work for me. Especially after having just inflated a tire. I'll always think it's got more air than it actually does. Wishful thinking, no doubt, adds to it. Your reference is your other tire when thumb gauging for pressure, unless both tires are flat. --Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA "Tom Nakashima" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... These tests need to be viewed in context. First comes inflation with pump having and easily readable and accurate gauge. Then comes the ride on which that pressure is assessed. The next day, assuming a reasonable inner tube is used, the tire should again be ridable unless there is a leak. A thumb or bounce test will reveal whether one of the tires got a leak on last use, not the precise pressure... that doesn't matter anyway. Jobst Brandt I actually rely on my thumb to check tire pressure when I repair a flat on the road, since I don't carry a mechanical pressure gauge when I ride. My thumb gauging technique is accurate enough. We ran a recent test on the road when I had flattened on my rear tire. One of the riders had a tire pressure gauge. I told him I didn't need one, I use my thumb. He said; "Let's see how accurate you are?" After I repaired and pumped up the flatten tube/tire, I used my thumb to feel the "non-flatten front" tire, then thumbed my rear tire and felt I was a little low. I pumped it up a little more until the rear tire pressure felt like the front tire pressure, by using my thumb as a gauge. We then put the mechanical tire pressure gauge to both tires and they were within a pound of eachother. -tom |
#14
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Your thumb is probably more accurate
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:34:34 -0600, Ben C wrote:
On 2008-01-30, wrote: On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:44:26 -0800, "Tom Nakashima" wrote: wrote in message ... The basic idea of this spring-loaded tire pressure gauge is okay, but the scale is a bit off. You'd need a dial indicator micrometer to measure the change in tire compression with the spring and plunger head shown: http://www.google.com/patents?id=ZBB...660445#PPP1,M1 Cheers, Carl Fogel Looks like it does have a built-in indicator. I'm afraid a dial indicator wouldn't work well, unless you're on top-dead- center of the radius. If you had a micrometer, you wouldn't need the spring plunger head shown. And glad you're finally convinced about using your thumb as a gauge... for awhile there thought you were calling us a liar. ;-) JB's bounce method also works well. -tom Dear Tom, I'm not convinced that a thumb is all that accurate, despite anecdotes, but I think that it would be better than that contraption. The bounce test sounds even less accurate. Another pressure test you have mentioned before is to use a 3-decimal-place odometer to measure apparent mileage over exactly the same route. Someone has since explained to me that that's how some cars with low-tyre-pressure warning lights do it. You have an individual odometer on each wheel and look for discrepancies, averaged out over reasonable mileages to filter out the effects of steering. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire_pr...itoring_system I made some estimates for how 15 miles would look on the odometer against percentage tyre drop: 0% 15.000 1% 15.006 2% 15.011 3% 15.017 4% 15.022 5% 15.028 6% 15.033 7% 15.039 8% 15.045 9% 15.050 10% 15.056 11% 15.061 12% 15.067 13% 15.073 14% 15.078 15% 15.084 16% 15.089 17% 15.095 18% 15.101 19% 15.106 20% 15.112 21% 15.118 22% 15.123 23% 15.129 24% 15.135 25% 15.140 Dear Ben, For fun, I eased my 110 psi front tire down to 100 psi for today's ride. With my current ~25 mm 700c (allegedly 28 mm), my daily ride increased from 15.043 yesterday at ~110 psi to 15.062 miles at ~100 psi, about 1.25% more "miles" for about 9% less air pressure. (The softer the tire, the greater the "shortcut" that it takes through the enlarged contact patch, which means an effectively smaller tire, which means more tire spins over the same distance, which produces a larger "mileage" figure.) A single spin of the tire (about 7 feet) is just over 0.001 miles (5.28 feet), so I always start with my cyclocomputer magnet just past the sensor from the same crack in my driveway and finish at the same spot. Otherwise, my figures would be less accurate and the heavens might fall. The test was conducted under the watchful eye of this obstruction: http://i30.tinypic.com/i4o6fc.jpg http://i25.tinypic.com/142svhe.jpg Alas, it wasn't quite watchful enough to warn me about a goathead somewhere ahead on the path. About a mile from home, my rear tire announced my third flat of the year, having gone soft enough to feel odd in a corner. Rather than stop and fix the flat in the cold, I slowed down, leaned over the handlebar, and limped home. Here's a thumb-test showing the rear tire's pressu http://i29.tinypic.com/aaj1ip.jpg When I pulled the tube, it was oddly dirty--the soft tire had flexed enough to let dirt inside in only a mile on pavement after last night's snow had melted. Ryan Cousineau may have suffered a worse fate under similar circumstances: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...a21cdb51dfd50c Ryan's dirt clod may have been just sediment from muddy water that got into his cross rim, but it could be that his tire pressure was low enough to let dirt in past the clincher rim. (I didn't go through any water after the tire began to go soft, so mine was just road dirt. I couldn't feel anything inside the tire, but I stopped falling for that that false reassurance years ago. Peering myopically at the tire inch by inch soon revealed the culprit: http://i30.tinypic.com/11uc1sy.jpg The base of the goathead thorn is the little white dot at 4 o'clock from the valve stem nut on the tire. Couldn't feel it on the inside of the tire, but it matched up with the hole in the tube. Here's the thorn extracted: http://i27.tinypic.com/2nhgp51.jpg The hole is at 4 o'clock to the thorn, well off the centerline of the tread. Thorn-catchers are often recommended, but may not work too well. This one has the most ferocious design that I've seen--look at the teeth: http://www.google.com/patents?id=5cJ...=PP1&dq=599790 A less savage wire-bail version of a "PXJWCTTRKE-GKUABD FOE PNEUMATIC TIEES": http://www.google.com/patents?id=2Nd...PA29&dq=979699 What I really need is one of these: http://www.google.com/patents?id=YVM...=PP1&dq=644380 http://www.google.com/patents?id=5cJ...=PP1&dq=599790 http://www.google.com/patents?id=E81...=PP1&dq=608839 But no one seems to make them any more. I can't even find them used on eBay. But things could be worse: "Bits of broken glass were found on the Merrick Road on Long Island last season in quantities sufficient to arouse suspicion in the minds of the wheelmen who ride daily over that sandpapered highway. Since the law against strewing glass, tacks, &c. in the public streets went into effect in this State, there have apparently been few, if any, willful violations until last Sunday, when a number of tires were so badly punctured as to destroy their usefulness. Several Brooklyn cyclists were the sufferers. They encountered the glass between the Valley Stream and Springfield. It is understood that the hotel keepers in that vicinity, they being benefited the most by the touring wheelmen, will organize at once to prevent a repetition of the glass strewing, as well as to punish the offenders." --NYT, July 29, 1896 http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...CF&oref=slogin The New York Times hasn't reported such atrocities recently, so the glass-strewing miscreants, willful or otherwise, must have been rounded up and lynched (probably in Springfield by a mob led by Moe Szyslak). The article is genuine. During the bike boom, hotels were eager to attract guests riding bicycles, just as the NYT was eager to cover bicycling in amazing detail and routinely reminded readers that applications to join the League of American Wheelmen (which rated hotels) could be obtained at the newspaper office. Cheers, Carl Fogel |
#15
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Your thumb is probably more accurate
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
I actually rely on my thumb to check tire pressure when I repair a flat on the road, since I don't carry a mechanical pressure gauge when I ride. My thumb gauging technique is accurate enough. I find my thumb virtually useless for checking tire pressure, especially after laboring a while to inflate one on the road. The problem is that anything over 80psi or so feels "hard." What I find works much better, assuming both front & rear tires are the same type & width, is to "ping" the tire and see if they both sound the same. Or, but a bit less accurate, "calibrate" my thumb by seeing how the other (presumably correctly inflated) tire feels, then checking the one just inflated. But thumb alone, without a reference point, just doesn't work for me. Especially after having just inflated a tire. I'll always think it's got more air than it actually does. Wishful thinking, no doubt, adds to it. The "thumb test" also works better on tires with thin casing; e.g. a Maxxis Hookworm [1] feels hard even when under-inflated, since the casing is so stiff. [1] http://www.maxxis.com/products/bicycle/product_detail.asp?id=90. -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia "And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people." - A. Derleth |
#16
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Your thumb is probably more accurate
May I ask, how do you "ping" the tire?
I think I would use the bounce test over "pinging" a tire, unless you have a good method for "pinging". Ping, thump, flick it with your finger, whatever. The idea is that a more highly inflated tire puts more tension on the casing so it sounds different. Bouncing a tire However- I just performed the experiment in a controlled environment, and I'm not convinced I can reliably judge the pressure much closer using a "ping" test vs squeezing. As for bouncing a tire, I guess that'll be the next experiment for someone to try. Does a tire at 90psi bounce significantly differently than one inflated to 120? By differently, the only thing we can judge is height, correct? Bounce two wheels from the same height and see if the one inflated more highly bounces back up a greater amount? I did the "ping" experiment. Someone else gets to do the bounce and report back! --Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA "Tom Nakashima" wrote in message ... "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote in message ... I actually rely on my thumb to check tire pressure when I repair a flat on the road, since I don't carry a mechanical pressure gauge when I ride. My thumb gauging technique is accurate enough. I find my thumb virtually useless for checking tire pressure, especially after laboring a while to inflate one on the road. The problem is that anything over 80psi or so feels "hard." What I find works much better, assuming both front & rear tires are the same type & width, is to "ping" the tire and see if they both sound the same. Or, but a bit less accurate, "calibrate" my thumb by seeing how the other (presumably correctly inflated) tire feels, then checking the one just inflated. May I ask, how do you "ping" the tire? I think I would use the bounce test over "pinging" a tire, unless you have a good method for "pinging". But thumb alone, without a reference point, just doesn't work for me. Especially after having just inflated a tire. I'll always think it's got more air than it actually does. Wishful thinking, no doubt, adds to it. Your reference is your other tire when thumb gauging for pressure, unless both tires are flat. --Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA "Tom Nakashima" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... These tests need to be viewed in context. First comes inflation with pump having and easily readable and accurate gauge. Then comes the ride on which that pressure is assessed. The next day, assuming a reasonable inner tube is used, the tire should again be ridable unless there is a leak. A thumb or bounce test will reveal whether one of the tires got a leak on last use, not the precise pressure... that doesn't matter anyway. Jobst Brandt I actually rely on my thumb to check tire pressure when I repair a flat on the road, since I don't carry a mechanical pressure gauge when I ride. My thumb gauging technique is accurate enough. We ran a recent test on the road when I had flattened on my rear tire. One of the riders had a tire pressure gauge. I told him I didn't need one, I use my thumb. He said; "Let's see how accurate you are?" After I repaired and pumped up the flatten tube/tire, I used my thumb to feel the "non-flatten front" tire, then thumbed my rear tire and felt I was a little low. I pumped it up a little more until the rear tire pressure felt like the front tire pressure, by using my thumb as a gauge. We then put the mechanical tire pressure gauge to both tires and they were within a pound of eachother. -tom |
#17
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Your thumb is probably more accurate
"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote in message ... May I ask, how do you "ping" the tire? I think I would use the bounce test over "pinging" a tire, unless you have a good method for "pinging". Ping, thump, flick it with your finger, whatever. The idea is that a more highly inflated tire puts more tension on the casing so it sounds different. Bouncing a tire However- I just performed the experiment in a controlled environment, and I'm not convinced I can reliably judge the pressure much closer using a "ping" test vs squeezing. As for bouncing a tire, I guess that'll be the next experiment for someone to try. Does a tire at 90psi bounce significantly differently than one inflated to 120? By differently, the only thing we can judge is height, correct? Bounce two wheels from the same height and see if the one inflated more highly bounces back up a greater amount? I did the "ping" experiment. Someone else gets to do the bounce and report back! --Mike Jacoubowsky Umm, not sure what you mean by "controlled environment"?? Sound proof room? Try doing your ping test on a windy day, or in a group of chatting cyclist, or on a busy city street. To me, carbon compound, or rubber acts as an "insulator" to sound. It would be very difficult to determine sound to detect pressure in a tire, unless you have mechanical instruments to do so. I personally don't do the bounce test, so I can't help you there. The thumb test I can see from pictures that their technique is wrong. Some here are trying to pinch the tire between their index finger and thumb against the casting or sidewalls. My method is to put one or two fingers under the rim and press down with my thumb on top of the tire. Make sure the tire is secure on the ground. This gives me a good feel of hardness (pressure in the tire) I use the inflated tire as my gauge, roughly 100 psi. I thumb-gauge to make the underinflated tire equal by adding air with a pump. It's easy to do, not sure what's complicated about all this. Give it a try Mike, in a non-controlled environment of course. -tom |
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