Inside a Chainglider after 3500km with zero chain maintenance

On Wednesday, April 15, 2015 at 2:42:26 PM UTC-4, Phil W Lee wrote:
"T0m $herman" considered Tue, 14
Apr 2015 23:22:56 -0500 the perfect time to write:

On 4/14/2015 2:12 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
With a single chain using entirely off-the shelf parts, it would be
hard to beat an SRAM Dual Drive 3x9 with triple front chainrings (81
gears, although clearly many duplicates).

I had a bike with 52/42/30 chainrings and a 7-speed 11-28 cassette on a
3x7 hub - about 20 distinct ratios out of the 63 combinations. Not
worth it for filling in gaps, but the the unique extra six ratios (3
each top and bottom of the range) were well worth it, since it was a
heavy but aerodynamic faired 'bent. On an upright where the wide range
is not needed, I would not bother.

Well, I have a dualdrive 3x9 lying around, which I may get around to
building into a rear wheel for my Bacchetta if I can find a suitable
36 hole 559 rim.
The additional gear range just might make it possible for me to ride
again, if I can stay upright at a low enough speed.

what's your problem ???

On Sunday, April 19, 2015 at 6:19:22 AM UTC-4, Phil W Lee wrote:
considered Sat, 18 Apr 2015 20:20:53 -0700 (PDT)
the perfect time to write:

On Wednesday, April 15, 2015 at 2:42:26 PM UTC-4, Phil W Lee wrote:
"T0m $herman" considered Tue, 14
Apr 2015 23:22:56 -0500 the perfect time to write:

On 4/14/2015 2:12 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
With a single chain using entirely off-the shelf parts, it would be
hard to beat an SRAM Dual Drive 3x9 with triple front chainrings (81
gears, although clearly many duplicates).

I had a bike with 52/42/30 chainrings and a 7-speed 11-28 cassette on a
3x7 hub - about 20 distinct ratios out of the 63 combinations. Not
worth it for filling in gaps, but the the unique extra six ratios (3
each top and bottom of the range) were well worth it, since it was a
heavy but aerodynamic faired 'bent. On an upright where the wide range
is not needed, I would not bother.

Well, I have a dualdrive 3x9 lying around, which I may get around to
building into a rear wheel for my Bacchetta if I can find a suitable
36 hole 559 rim.
The additional gear range just might make it possible for me to ride
again, if I can stay upright at a low enough speed.

what's your problem ???

Nerve damage in my legs from B12 deficiency, causing loss of strength
(and some sensation, as well, although I don't think that'll be a
problem).
I can manage about 15 yards, maybe 20, on crutches on a good day.
Beyond that it's the wheelchair.

use an electric ?

On Tuesday, April 14, 2015 at 8:14:44 AM UTC+1, James wrote:
On 14/04/15 03:59, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 3:57:08 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
SNIP

What drag and what weight? A Rohloff system complete weighs about the same as a derailleur system complete, and is between 1 and 4% less efficient than common top of the line derailleur systems, in return for which you don't have to clean it or tune it or spend constantly on replacement parts, and you can change multiple gears at once, even at standstill, a very considerable boon for utility riding. Check out the first post in this thread about maintenance saving. (Admittedly, you can get similar maintenance savings with the cheaper Shimano hub gearboxes, but they didn't last well in my hands. Note however, Dutch and continental experience, where service is available, unlike here, is different for the Shimano gearboxes.)

There is a weight penalty for a road bike -- between one and two pounds, and it's all in the back. But aside from that (which isn't meaningful for some people), I was wondering about the long-term cost savings. According to Lou, chain life for his Rohloff (no chaincase) is about the same as the chain life for his derailleur bike. Lou, correct me if I am wrong. So, you would have savings on cassettes but not necessarily chains. The next question is what is the cost/life span of a Rohloff cog.

According to that Oracle eBay, Rohloff cogs range between $32 and $54. A Rohloff cog is $40 at JensonUSA. http://www.jensonusa.com/!GU7rsFY-j1...eplacement-Cog

The Tiagra level cassette on my commuter bike cost $30. http://www.universalcycles.com/shopp...06&category=41
I don't know the lifespan of a Rohloff cog, but it is probably longer than my cassette -- plus you can flip them. Cassette life varies depending on how diligent you are changing chains. I'd be curious to see how the cassette and cog compare.

I agree that if you don't mind the weight and the absence of STI shifters, some oddities in terms of shifting (backing off to get a gear), 14 gears instead of 18/20/22, wider steps, adding oil and cost, increased friction (not making that up; it's been measured), then it's a great system. You can shift when stopped. I assume it doesn't miss gears and sticking cables don't have the same effect (e.g. ghost shifting, etc.) It lasts forever and hoses off easier.
It probably makes a superior MTB mud bike/heavy tourer.


I think it would be good for a commuter as well, especially in hilly
terrain. Hiding the complexity of gears inside the hub makes a nice
neat solution, and likely more robust. It's not difficult to bend a
derailleur hanger even if a bike just falls over - like in a bike rack
at work. The rear derailleur isn't going to get damaged if you want to
remove the wheels and stuff the bike in the back of a car. You'll never
have the chain overshoot the biggest sprocket and jam in between the
sprocket and spokes, and you'll never get the rear derailleur caught on
a spoke (after the hanger got bent or whatever) and rip it off and take
a few spokes with it.

Yes, there are real advantages, but the price puts me off mostly, and
the extra weight a little as well - though I'd put up with that if the
price came down.

--
JS

I used to think like that until I blew up a couple of Shimano Nexus Premium 8 speed boxes. Suddenly the longevity of the Rohloff appeared as the *cheap option*...

In fact, I'm doubly glad now that I didn't cheap out to the Alfine 11 speed box, about half the price of a Rohloff. A couple of weeks ago the Bafang QSWXK front hub motor on my Kranich gave up the ghost. I could have rebuilt it but the tools and the carriage and the customs duties and fees, and the VAT would make replacing ten bucks' worth of plastic gear wheels cost more than just buying a new motor prespoked in England... (Just as well I didn't go that route. When I dismantled the controllers I found planty of burnt wiring.) Instead I decided that, since my battery with Panasonic cells delivers plenty of current, to go the whole hog and fit a mid motor, the Bafang BBS01. This will definitely rip the Shimano and several other HGB apart, and require great care in operation not to rip the NuVinci apart too. But motor/Rohloff combos with more than twice the torque I thought necessary are already well proven by offroaders.

On 04/05/15 17:13, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, April 14, 2015 at 8:14:44 AM UTC+1, James wrote:


I think it would be good for a commuter as well, especially in
hilly terrain. Hiding the complexity of gears inside the hub makes
a nice neat solution, and likely more robust. It's not difficult
to bend a derailleur hanger even if a bike just falls over - like
in a bike rack at work. The rear derailleur isn't going to get
damaged if you want to remove the wheels and stuff the bike in the
back of a car. You'll never have the chain overshoot the biggest
sprocket and jam in between the sprocket and spokes, and you'll
never get the rear derailleur caught on a spoke (after the hanger
got bent or whatever) and rip it off and take a few spokes with
it.

Yes, there are real advantages, but the price puts me off mostly,
and the extra weight a little as well - though I'd put up with that
if the price came down.


I used to think like that until I blew up a couple of Shimano Nexus
Premium 8 speed boxes. Suddenly the longevity of the Rohloff appeared
as the *cheap option*...

In fact, I'm doubly glad now that I didn't cheap out to the Alfine 11
speed box, about half the price of a Rohloff. A couple of weeks ago
the Bafang QSWXK front hub motor on my Kranich gave up the ghost. I
could have rebuilt it but the tools and the carriage and the customs
duties and fees, and the VAT would make replacing ten bucks' worth of
plastic gear wheels cost more than just buying a new motor prespoked
in England... (Just as well I didn't go that route. When I dismantled
the controllers I found planty of burnt wiring.) Instead I decided
that, since my battery with Panasonic cells delivers plenty of
current, to go the whole hog and fit a mid motor, the Bafang BBS01.
This will definitely rip the Shimano and several other HGB apart, and
require great care in operation not to rip the NuVinci apart too. But
motor/Rohloff combos with more than twice the torque I thought
necessary are already well proven by offroaders.


Yes, I understand where you're coming from. If you're going to use an
IGH, you better use a damn good one, unless you're content to pootle
along on relatively flat paths that is.

Thankfully I haven't destroyed any expensive freehubs or derailleurs to
date, but I imagine if it was happening I'd head down the Rohloff IGH
route too.

Shame about the gear box in your motor. Plastic gears are really not
going to cope for long. Does the mid motor have steel gears in a bath
of oil?

I dismantled a high pressure water cleaner the other day. Even that had
a nicely sealed gearbox housing an epicyclic reduction gear set that was
lubricated by oil. The electric motor was fried, but the gears and pump
are fine. Shame I can't buy a new motor for it!

--
JS

Andre Jute writes:

In fact, I'm doubly glad now that I didn't cheap out to the Alfine 11
speed box, about half the price of a Rohloff. A couple of weeks ago
the Bafang QSWXK front hub motor on my Kranich gave up the ghost. I
could have rebuilt it but the tools and the carriage and the customs
duties and fees, and the VAT would make replacing ten bucks' worth of
plastic gear wheels cost more than just buying a new motor prespoked
in England... (Just as well I didn't go that route. When I dismantled
the controllers I found planty of burnt wiring.) Instead I decided
that, since my battery with Panasonic cells delivers plenty of
current, to go the whole hog and fit a mid motor, the Bafang
BBS01. This will definitely rip the Shimano and several other HGB
apart, and require great care in operation not to rip the NuVinci
apart too. But motor/Rohloff combos with more than twice the torque I
thought necessary are already well proven by offroaders.

It will be interesting to see what effect this has on your chain life.
Previously, with the drive coming from the front wheel, the load on the
chain was reduced when under electric drive. Now it will be increased.

--
Joe Riel

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 12:33:20 AM UTC+1, JoeRiel wrote:
Andre Jute writes:

In fact, I'm doubly glad now that I didn't cheap out to the Alfine 11
speed box, about half the price of a Rohloff. A couple of weeks ago
the Bafang QSWXK front hub motor on my Kranich gave up the ghost. I
could have rebuilt it but the tools and the carriage and the customs
duties and fees, and the VAT would make replacing ten bucks' worth of
plastic gear wheels cost more than just buying a new motor prespoked
in England... (Just as well I didn't go that route. When I dismantled
the controllers I found planty of burnt wiring.) Instead I decided
that, since my battery with Panasonic cells delivers plenty of
current, to go the whole hog and fit a mid motor, the Bafang
BBS01. This will definitely rip the Shimano and several other HGB
apart, and require great care in operation not to rip the NuVinci
apart too. But motor/Rohloff combos with more than twice the torque I
thought necessary are already well proven by offroaders.

It will be interesting to see what effect this has on your chain life.
Previously, with the drive coming from the front wheel, the load on the
chain was reduced when under electric drive. Now it will be increased.

--
Joe Riel

In the previous setup the chain had an easy life, fully enclosed in a Hebie Chainglider, running on a blueprint chainline of precisely 54mm. The only stress was that I ran it for 3500km without any service, strictly on the factory lube, as a deliberate experiment (suggested to me by Sheldon Brown). That chain was worn less than 0.5mm and would clearly have made my target of 4506km (set by the previous chain, also running in an enclosure, but serviced with Oil of Rohloff in the normal manner every 500km).

I've fitted a new chain to the new system and we'll see. I have spacers to put the chainline at precisely the Rohloff norm of 54mm, and I can get, and am considering whether I want, a 44T chainring and Hebie Chainglider to suit the BBS motor (the motor came with a 46T ring, for which a Chainglider is not available). I can go down to a 42T ring and still make the 54mm chainline, but no smaller. A new steel chainring, a precisely correct 54mm chainline, a Chainglider and the original factory lube would duplicate the previous two setups near enough to conclude something.

I'm not actually planning on running the system on the PAS but on the throttle. On my previous setup I didn't even have the PAS sensor fitted and ran the bike solely on the throttle; here the PAS is built in. Wisdom in the speed freak community, which fits bigger motors and treats them rougher than I do, is that the PAS is hard on the transmission including the gearbox.

Andre Jute

On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 9:02:10 AM UTC+1, James wrote:
On 04/05/15 17:13, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, April 14, 2015 at 8:14:44 AM UTC+1, James wrote:


I think it would be good for a commuter as well, especially in
hilly terrain. Hiding the complexity of gears inside the hub makes
a nice neat solution, and likely more robust. It's not difficult
to bend a derailleur hanger even if a bike just falls over - like
in a bike rack at work. The rear derailleur isn't going to get
damaged if you want to remove the wheels and stuff the bike in the
back of a car. You'll never have the chain overshoot the biggest
sprocket and jam in between the sprocket and spokes, and you'll
never get the rear derailleur caught on a spoke (after the hanger
got bent or whatever) and rip it off and take a few spokes with
it.

Yes, there are real advantages, but the price puts me off mostly,
and the extra weight a little as well - though I'd put up with that
if the price came down.


I used to think like that until I blew up a couple of Shimano Nexus
Premium 8 speed boxes. Suddenly the longevity of the Rohloff appeared
as the *cheap option*...

In fact, I'm doubly glad now that I didn't cheap out to the Alfine 11
speed box, about half the price of a Rohloff. A couple of weeks ago
the Bafang QSWXK front hub motor on my Kranich gave up the ghost. I
could have rebuilt it but the tools and the carriage and the customs
duties and fees, and the VAT would make replacing ten bucks' worth of
plastic gear wheels cost more than just buying a new motor prespoked
in England... (Just as well I didn't go that route. When I dismantled
the controllers I found planty of burnt wiring.) Instead I decided
that, since my battery with Panasonic cells delivers plenty of
current, to go the whole hog and fit a mid motor, the Bafang BBS01.
This will definitely rip the Shimano and several other HGB apart, and
require great care in operation not to rip the NuVinci apart too. But
motor/Rohloff combos with more than twice the torque I thought
necessary are already well proven by offroaders.


Yes, I understand where you're coming from. If you're going to use an
IGH, you better use a damn good one, unless you're content to pootle
along on relatively flat paths that is.

Thankfully I haven't destroyed any expensive freehubs or derailleurs to
date, but I imagine if it was happening I'd head down the Rohloff IGH
route too.

Shame about the gear box in your motor. Plastic gears are really not
going to cope for long. Does the mid motor have steel gears in a bath
of oil?

I dismantled a high pressure water cleaner the other day. Even that had
a nicely sealed gearbox housing an epicyclic reduction gear set that was
lubricated by oil. The electric motor was fried, but the gears and pump
are fine. Shame I can't buy a new motor for it!

--
JS

We have only two flat roads out of town, and one is lethal (the police super, who should have known better, was killed on it on his bike) and the other runs 5km before it too narrows to being lethal. I ride hills or nothing; fortunately the hilly roads are the minor ones with less traffic.

All the civilized, silent, motors have plastic drive gears. It seems from videos that they may be less tiresome to replace in the BBS, which is a modular motor with the entire clutch unit, with gears installed and circlipped, available ex-stock, also the built-in controller is accessible by undoing three bolts and bit of wriggling.

We live in hope.

I'd be satisfied if the plastic gears in the BBS01 midmotor last the same 3500km as their predecessors in the QSWXK front hub motor. The cost in the front hub motor, consideirng I have the expensive battery left over and eminently usable on my new system, was roundabout 8c per kilometer, which is very reasonable indeed. If I have to scrap the complete BBS01 motor unit with nothing salvageable because so much is built in and will very likely be wrecked by the same heat that wrecks the plastic gears, the per kilometre cost will double to 15c. That's a bargain, considering the extra torque. In addition I'm hoping that the native extra torque will allow the motor to run cooler, so that the fear may even go further.

The plastic gears in the BBS01 are in fact the very same plastic gears as in the QSWXK, completely interchangeable.

Metal gears are, or were, available, but you don't hear much about them these days. They were noisy and expensive, and people soon would fit only one metal gear to keep the noise down, and get a bit more life out of a set of mixed metal and plastic gears. I have no plans to go looking for metal gears.

Andre Jute
From the 21st century