Inside a Chainglider after 3500km with zero chain maintenance

On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 7:34:09 PM UTC+1, wrote:
Rollo's are generally not used by riders doahn ride

Holy ****, the conference quarter-wit gets something right, though involuntarily by illitterate double negative when his actual intention was dumb malice.

Read that again: "Rollo's are generally not used by riders doahn ride". Precisely! Rohloffs are generally used by riders who ride a lot, just as poor Gene Daniels manages to say -- despite himself!

I'm so happy to be able to agree with you this once, Daniels. Congratulations on getting something right, even accidentally by illiteracy.

Andre Jute
Laughter is good for you

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 1:52:20 AM UTC+1, wrote:
Jute

you are an ugly pig and a barbarian vanity press author

According to Gene Daniels, the group quarterwit, Secker & Warburg, Harper, Bantam, W W Norton, St Martin's, Warner Books, Sphere, Rotovision of Switzerland, Batsford, David & Charles, etc, etc, most of the world's top publishers, who all published my books, are all "vanity publishers". And my Swedish, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, many Spanish, Japanese, Greek, etc, etc, publishers in translation, all "vanity presses", huh?

Yeah? You're wanking, Daniels.

Add another subject of which the poor ****wit Daniels know absolutely nothing. That completes an entire Dewey classification of which Gene Daniels is ignorant. Mind you, to be fair, this clown Daniels probably thinks Dewey was a "vanity publisher".

the info sez FIBER COGS...the rebuild video sez FIBER COGS.

MAN TAKES HIS APRAT AND SEZ FIBER COGS

Well, show it to us, sonny; we promise not to laugh at the gullible hick from the sticks.

Andre Jute
How difficult could it be to stick to what you know? The rest of us manage just fine.

On 4/7/2015 7:05 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 7:34:09 PM UTC+1, wrote:

Rollo's have fiber cogs. How spend that much for fiber cogs in the sweet spot is beyond me except consider Rollo's are generally not used by riders doahn ride

INCREDULOUS

You should be incredulous, you ignorant clown, at the incredible lies you spread every time you open your fat mouth. There are no fiber cogs on any Rohloff anywhere in the world, no matter what irrelevances your incompetent googling throws up.

Andre Jute
Standing tall for truth


You click Gurgle links?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 1:50:59 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/7/2015 7:05 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 7:34:09 PM UTC+1, wrote:

Rollo's have fiber cogs. How spend that much for fiber cogs in the sweet spot is beyond me except consider Rollo's are generally not used by riders doahn ride

INCREDULOUS

You should be incredulous, you ignorant clown, at the incredible lies you spread every time you open your fat mouth. There are no fiber cogs on any Rohloff anywhere in the world, no matter what irrelevances your incompetent googling throws up.

Andre Jute
Standing tall for truth


You click Gurgle links?

Of course I don't click Google links. I have clowns to do that and come tell me what they say. I was responding to the ****wit Gene Daniels' ignorant statement made explicitly in his post that "Rollo's have fiber cogs."

Andre Jute
Duh

On 2015-04-07 4:54 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 5:12:28 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-04-06 6:34 PM, James wrote:
On 05/04/15 11:23, Andre Jute wrote:

Photo:

http://coolmainpress.com/ajwriting/archives/4860

Laterally yours,

Andre Jute



Nice. I'm up to 17,500km on two chains in alternate use on a
single cassette. However I cook and swap chains about once a
month, and avoid wet weather riding where possible. I have been
caught out in the rain though. Sometimes I risk it and get
caught out. I actually left one chain on for several months, and
now the other chain wont run on the cassette. For the past 4
months I've been on one chain.


The KMC-X10.93 on my MTB was gone after about 1200mi or less than
2000km. Way gone. I found that once it reached the 0.8% stretch
limit its continued wear accelerated big time.

90% hard offroad though. Factory lube which is good on the KMC
lasts roughly 100mi on the MTB after which it begins to make noise.
After that it gets a thorough cleaning and White Lightning Epic
Ride every 50mi or so. Rohloff would be nice but $1500 plus wheel
build is a bit much.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I have a theory that once a cyclist establishes a mileage x on a
transmission component, and some approximation to best practice for
his transmission chain, fiddling with brands of components and lube
will win him only marginal improvements. He has to make some kind of
a radical rethink to get a radical improvement over his established
mileage.


Probably true. But when radical rethink comes with a hefty four-digit
price tag the willingness for change drops significantly.


When my bikes had Shimano hub gearboxesI used to get 1000 miles on
Shimano Nexus transmission sets -- inside those big plastic Dutch
chain cases, with perfectly clean chains encased in white wax.
Fiddling around with brand names and lubes and fiddly bits (the
chainline is important) I eventually got my mileage up to better than
1100m.


I hope that doesn't mean you had to swap the Nexus hub every 1100 miles ...


Then I switched to the Rohloff box and tight-fitting, tightly
enclosed chain cases, steel or stainless gears (now all stainless,
but not because any of the steel wore out before it's time, merely as
a step in my experiment towards the zero maintenance bike), and KMC
Z8 and X8 chains, with Oil of Rohloff lube, and immediately got
4506km, near enough 3000m, definitely a quantum step.

Now I'm at 3500km in an experiment to run the KMC X8 chain, Rohloff
factory cog, and Surly stainless steel chainring, all inside a Hebie
Chainglider, without any lube but what came on the X8 from the
factory. I already have developed my bike to the point where once a
year the oil is changed and the gearchange connector gets a shot of
grease and a new chain is fitted, which is the nearest approach to a
zero maintenance bike available anywhere on earth, I think. But I'd
like to see, in another 1000km, whether the factory lube makes the
same distance as lubing by Oil of Rohloff.


If the Rohloff just wouldn't be so expensive. With two bikes (which you
need out here) that would easily set you back $4k or more with wheel
re-build and all. And the risk of bike theft goes up tenfold.


***

BTW, Oil of Rohloff is wonderful stuff. It is light and clean and
very economical as you just lay a light bead on top of the chain, so
that a little bottle goes a long way. I bought six of the little
bottles with my bike, and in 4506km used less than half of one
bottle. The stuff's also cheap, about five Euro a bottle. It spreads
and clings tenaciously, though, so you want to be careful where else
it gets on your bike because it just doesn't want to be wiped off. It
doesn't stain clothes, which is good.


That is indeed economical. Like Hammond oil for Hammond organs. In about
10 years we've probably used 1/3 of a bottle.

I don't mind maintenance so much. I lift the bike up onto the bench so I
can work while standing, turn on the radio or think about some technical
stuff I have to engineer out and go about the clean and lube of the
chains. Mostly the steerer also needs adjustment and other stuff.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2015-04-07 5:39 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 8:36:48 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:

On my road bike it's more like 150mi [per application of White
Lightning Epic lube], depending on how many of those miles are off
pavement.

If that's all you get, you may as well work with the clean white wax.
I used to get 150 tarmac miles out of a lube.

Rollo's have fiber cogs. How spend that much for fiber cogs in
the sweet spot is beyond me except consider Rollo's are generally
not used by riders doahn ride

INCREDULOUS


Rohloff has fiber cogs? Seriously?

This poor jerk Danilels sees a post, makes a fast hit on Google with
an incompent search term, then posts whatever it says in the first
link just to post something. Then he postures as an expert.

You can get three kinds of cogs on a Rohloff hub: 1. Rohloff's own
long-lasting and reasonably priced reversible cogs. Most people use
these. 2. Special tooth count cogs. Rohloff for instance licensed the
English touring bike make Thorn to make a tooth count they don't make
themselves; it's no longer available, presumably because not enough
buyers wanted it. (The licensing has to do with the torque permitted
on the hub, which is a function of the chainring and sprocket tooth
ratio. For instance, I use 38x16 with a factory cog, which is already
a stump puller even on 700C wheels, but Rohloff permits even lower
for real heavy tourers who want to climb vertical hills. ) 3. Gates
Belt Drive. The belt is carbon fibre, the cogs are steel. Again, a
special license from Rohloff is required for the installation.


That licensing seems like a silly business.


That hub has a good reputation, with people clocking north of 50k
miles on the same hub.

These days it's north of a lot more than 50K. But a downhiller like
you shouldn't make his judgement on what tourers do, but on what the
mudpluggers achieve: none of them have ever wrecked a Rohloff box
terminally. Rohloff installations are headed for 200,000 and there
isn't even one that has been terminated.


Oh there are. Example:

http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-141.html

And when that stuff happens with a $1500 product I'd like it to be
covered by a truly honored lifetime warranty. Like on a pricey kitchen
faucet here where they sent us a new one for free.


... Rohloff refuses to say what
the life expectancy of the box is, not because they're obstructive
but because they simply don't know.


I am not a downhiller but ride hard trails, lots of torque and steep
climbs. In my youth I wrecked cotter pins for cranks by the dozen.


It's just a tad expensive. Not sure how the less expensive Alfine
would hold up on a MTB.

Mmm. See, Shimano had a seven-speed Nexus box, which was developed
from a 3-speed Nexus box that goes back to at least the nineties,
maybe the eighties of the last century. (Where is Vogel, my little
googlebug, when I need him?) They sold a gazillion of the seven speed
boxes to OEMs in Taiwan and The Netherlands. It has a reputation as a
good, tough, commuter box. Then Shimano extended its range by turning
it into an eight speed box. This one was a bit fragile if not
properly serviced. Mine is rough after about 5000m. Shimano added a
so-called "Premium" 8-speed with better seals and bearings. Mine
clocked out at about 5000m. Shimano then built an Alfine 11-speed
specifically for tougher duty. It has mixed reports, but by this time
I'd given up on Shimano hub gearboxes as unsuitable for mashers;
they're probably admirable for commuters. Shimano next produced an
8-sp Alfine which may be a downscaled Alfine and thus better than the
Premium 8-sp or may just be the Premium 8-sp renamed. All of these
require a service every 5000km by being disassembled and stood in a
bath of oil. The service kit costs between a quarter and a tenth of
the purchase price of the box or 250% of the price of a Rohloff
service kit.

Chalo Colina, one of the smartest and most experienced cyclists ever
to come to RBT, said that a Rohloff just starts to be run in when a
Shimano hub gearbox is worn out. It's true.

Experience with Shimano hub gearboxes (which I admire on a
cost/benefit basis for less strenuous applications than mine; I also
admire the roller brakes that come with them but, again, not their
service requirements) persuaded me that a Rohloff is a cheap option
for the committed cyclist. I haven't regretted the expenditure for a
single moment.


I guess some day I'll have to take the plunge and switch to Rohloff then.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 3:14:03 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-04-07 5:39 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 8:36:48 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:

On my road bike it's more like 150mi [per application of White
Lightning Epic lube], depending on how many of those miles are off
pavement.

If that's all you get, you may as well work with the clean white wax.
I used to get 150 tarmac miles out of a lube.

Rollo's have fiber cogs. How spend that much for fiber cogs in
the sweet spot is beyond me except consider Rollo's are generally
not used by riders doahn ride

INCREDULOUS


Rohloff has fiber cogs? Seriously?

This poor jerk Danilels sees a post, makes a fast hit on Google with
an incompent search term, then posts whatever it says in the first
link just to post something. Then he postures as an expert.

You can get three kinds of cogs on a Rohloff hub: 1. Rohloff's own
long-lasting and reasonably priced reversible cogs. Most people use
these. 2. Special tooth count cogs. Rohloff for instance licensed the
English touring bike make Thorn to make a tooth count they don't make
themselves; it's no longer available, presumably because not enough
buyers wanted it. (The licensing has to do with the torque permitted
on the hub, which is a function of the chainring and sprocket tooth
ratio. For instance, I use 38x16 with a factory cog, which is already
a stump puller even on 700C wheels, but Rohloff permits even lower
for real heavy tourers who want to climb vertical hills. ) 3. Gates
Belt Drive. The belt is carbon fibre, the cogs are steel. Again, a
special license from Rohloff is required for the installation.


That licensing seems like a silly business.

I know. But if you break the Rohloff requirements, they may not give you the benefit of the doubt after your warranty expires. This voluntary continuation of the warranty is very valuable on an item this expensive.

That hub has a good reputation, with people clocking north of 50k
miles on the same hub.

These days it's north of a lot more than 50K. But a downhiller like
you shouldn't make his judgement on what tourers do, but on what the
mudpluggers achieve: none of them have ever wrecked a Rohloff box
terminally. Rohloff installations are headed for 200,000 and there
isn't even one that has been terminated.


Oh there are. Example:

http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-141.html

And when that stuff happens with a $1500 product I'd like it to be
covered by a truly honored lifetime warranty. Like on a pricey kitchen
faucet here where they sent us a new one for free.

That's not a destroyed hub. You send it to Rohloff and they fit the gubbins to a new shell. The only question is who pays for. In the normal course of events, regardless of the age of the hub, Rohloff does not charge users who change the oil in their hubs regularly.

In any event, you can now get 36 hole Rohloff hubs, and a wrecker like you should!

Andre Jute

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 3:03:34 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-04-07 4:54 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 5:12:28 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-04-06 6:34 PM, James wrote:
On 05/04/15 11:23, Andre Jute wrote:

Photo:

http://coolmainpress.com/ajwriting/archives/4860

Laterally yours,

Andre Jute



Nice. I'm up to 17,500km on two chains in alternate use on a
single cassette. However I cook and swap chains about once a
month, and avoid wet weather riding where possible. I have been
caught out in the rain though. Sometimes I risk it and get
caught out. I actually left one chain on for several months, and
now the other chain wont run on the cassette. For the past 4
months I've been on one chain.


The KMC-X10.93 on my MTB was gone after about 1200mi or less than
2000km. Way gone. I found that once it reached the 0.8% stretch
limit its continued wear accelerated big time.

90% hard offroad though. Factory lube which is good on the KMC
lasts roughly 100mi on the MTB after which it begins to make noise.
After that it gets a thorough cleaning and White Lightning Epic
Ride every 50mi or so. Rohloff would be nice but $1500 plus wheel
build is a bit much.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I have a theory that once a cyclist establishes a mileage x on a
transmission component, and some approximation to best practice for
his transmission chain, fiddling with brands of components and lube
will win him only marginal improvements. He has to make some kind of
a radical rethink to get a radical improvement over his established
mileage.


Probably true. But when radical rethink comes with a hefty four-digit
price tag the willingness for change drops significantly.


When my bikes had Shimano hub gearboxesI used to get 1000 miles on
Shimano Nexus transmission sets -- inside those big plastic Dutch
chain cases, with perfectly clean chains encased in white wax.
Fiddling around with brand names and lubes and fiddly bits (the
chainline is important) I eventually got my mileage up to better than
1100m.

I hope that doesn't mean you had to swap the Nexus hub every 1100 miles ...

Not that bad, but my Shimano hubs didn't last past 5K, which isn't good enough.

Then I switched to the Rohloff box and tight-fitting, tightly
enclosed chain cases, steel or stainless gears (now all stainless,
but not because any of the steel wore out before it's time, merely as
a step in my experiment towards the zero maintenance bike), and KMC
Z8 and X8 chains, with Oil of Rohloff lube, and immediately got
4506km, near enough 3000m, definitely a quantum step.

Now I'm at 3500km in an experiment to run the KMC X8 chain, Rohloff
factory cog, and Surly stainless steel chainring, all inside a Hebie
Chainglider, without any lube but what came on the X8 from the
factory. I already have developed my bike to the point where once a
year the oil is changed and the gearchange connector gets a shot of
grease and a new chain is fitted, which is the nearest approach to a
zero maintenance bike available anywhere on earth, I think. But I'd
like to see, in another 1000km, whether the factory lube makes the
same distance as lubing by Oil of Rohloff.


If the Rohloff just wouldn't be so expensive. With two bikes (which you
need out here) that would easily set you back $4k or more with wheel
re-build and all. And the risk of bike theft goes up tenfold.

You reckon thieves know a Rohloff hub? I woulda thought a big hub in the rear wheel without any shiny, clearly expensive derailleurs, would be a deterrent. No thief wants to steal orphan equipment.

You do know that thieves can't get a Rohloff serviced, don't you. Rohloff keeps a record of serials of their boxes reported stolen, and refuse them service.

Andre Jute

On 2015-04-08 8:18 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 3:14:03 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-04-07 5:39 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 8:36:48 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:

On my road bike it's more like 150mi [per application of White
Lightning Epic lube], depending on how many of those miles are
off pavement.

If that's all you get, you may as well work with the clean white
wax. I used to get 150 tarmac miles out of a lube.

Rollo's have fiber cogs. How spend that much for fiber cogs
in the sweet spot is beyond me except consider Rollo's are
generally not used by riders doahn ride

INCREDULOUS


Rohloff has fiber cogs? Seriously?

This poor jerk Danilels sees a post, makes a fast hit on Google
with an incompent search term, then posts whatever it says in the
first link just to post something. Then he postures as an
expert.

You can get three kinds of cogs on a Rohloff hub: 1. Rohloff's
own long-lasting and reasonably priced reversible cogs. Most
people use these. 2. Special tooth count cogs. Rohloff for
instance licensed the English touring bike make Thorn to make a
tooth count they don't make themselves; it's no longer available,
presumably because not enough buyers wanted it. (The licensing
has to do with the torque permitted on the hub, which is a
function of the chainring and sprocket tooth ratio. For instance,
I use 38x16 with a factory cog, which is already a stump puller
even on 700C wheels, but Rohloff permits even lower for real
heavy tourers who want to climb vertical hills. ) 3. Gates Belt
Drive. The belt is carbon fibre, the cogs are steel. Again, a
special license from Rohloff is required for the installation.


That licensing seems like a silly business.

I know. But if you break the Rohloff requirements, they may not give
you the benefit of the doubt after your warranty expires. This
voluntary continuation of the warranty is very valuable on an item
this expensive.


Ok, that's not a license. That's just obtaining the manufacturer's ok
for a certain method of use.


That hub has a good reputation, with people clocking north of
50k miles on the same hub.

These days it's north of a lot more than 50K. But a downhiller
like you shouldn't make his judgement on what tourers do, but on
what the mudpluggers achieve: none of them have ever wrecked a
Rohloff box terminally. Rohloff installations are headed for
200,000 and there isn't even one that has been terminated.


Oh there are. Example:

http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-141.html

And when that stuff happens with a $1500 product I'd like it to be
covered by a truly honored lifetime warranty. Like on a pricey
kitchen faucet here where they sent us a new one for free.

That's not a destroyed hub. You send it to Rohloff and they fit the
gubbins to a new shell. The only question is who pays for.


That is the key question. And to me that's pretty much a destroyed hub.


... In the
normal course of events, regardless of the age of the hub, Rohloff
does not charge users who change the oil in their hubs regularly.

In any event, you can now get 36 hole Rohloff hubs, and a wrecker
like you should!


Probably. It would be best if Rohloff offered complete wheels for disc
brake, like 26", 27-1/2 and 29" for MTB riders. Having to spoke it in is
a major hassle to MTB folks, like me most of them really don't like
doing that. But they do not care about decor so just a non-descript
black rim would be fine.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2015-04-08 8:23 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 3:03:34 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-04-07 4:54 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 5:12:28 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-04-06 6:34 PM, James wrote:
On 05/04/15 11:23, Andre Jute wrote:


[...]


When my bikes had Shimano hub gearboxesI used to get 1000 miles
on Shimano Nexus transmission sets -- inside those big plastic
Dutch chain cases, with perfectly clean chains encased in white
wax. Fiddling around with brand names and lubes and fiddly bits
(the chainline is important) I eventually got my mileage up to
better than 1100m.

I hope that doesn't mean you had to swap the Nexus hub every 1100
miles ...

Not that bad, but my Shimano hubs didn't last past 5K, which isn't
good enough.


That to me is a clear case of premature failure. I wouldn't even get two
years worth out of it on my MTB.


Then I switched to the Rohloff box and tight-fitting, tightly
enclosed chain cases, steel or stainless gears (now all
stainless, but not because any of the steel wore out before it's
time, merely as a step in my experiment towards the zero
maintenance bike), and KMC Z8 and X8 chains, with Oil of Rohloff
lube, and immediately got 4506km, near enough 3000m, definitely a
quantum step.

Now I'm at 3500km in an experiment to run the KMC X8 chain,
Rohloff factory cog, and Surly stainless steel chainring, all
inside a Hebie Chainglider, without any lube but what came on the
X8 from the factory. I already have developed my bike to the
point where once a year the oil is changed and the gearchange
connector gets a shot of grease and a new chain is fitted, which
is the nearest approach to a zero maintenance bike available
anywhere on earth, I think. But I'd like to see, in another
1000km, whether the factory lube makes the same distance as
lubing by Oil of Rohloff.


If the Rohloff just wouldn't be so expensive. With two bikes (which
you need out here) that would easily set you back $4k or more with
wheel re-build and all. And the risk of bike theft goes up
tenfold.

You reckon thieves know a Rohloff hub? I woulda thought a big hub in
the rear wheel without any shiny, clearly expensive derailleurs,
would be a deterrent. No thief wants to steal orphan equipment.


They aren't that dumb, they know which bikes are worth money. The not so
smart ones would think it's an E-bike with a hub motor.


You do know that thieves can't get a Rohloff serviced, don't you.
Rohloff keeps a record of serials of their boxes reported stolen, and
refuse them service.


I know but thieves don't. They are not interested in getting anything
serviced. All they are usually interested in is to sell the stolen bike
to a "dealer" same day or as fast as possible so they can get the cash
for their next drug fix.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/