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Waxing Chains?



 
 
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  #21  
Old November 22nd 16, 02:50 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B Slocomb
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Posts: 356
Default Waxing Chains?

On Mon, 21 Nov 2016 08:34:25 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/20/2016 4:51 PM, John B Slocomb wrote:

Does anyone have any statistics regarding the length of time paraffin
wax lasts as a chain lubricant? Either in miles/kilometers ridden,
days/months between lube jobs, or other statistics?

When I used to use wax I used to re-wax probably every two weeks or so
but wonder whether a more relaxed schedule might be sufficient?


You can't go by time _or_ mileage, there are other factors as well.
What's the weather? Are you mixing oil in with the wax so there is a
lubricant still present once the wax is displaced?

What the Experts say About Chain Waxing:

"When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.

I'm not sure I believe that. I used wax, applied at high temperatures
and allowed to harden with both down tube friction shifters and
"Brifters" and never had a single instance of shifting problems.

"Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
of The Bicycle Wheel

"If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.

"Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
grease." Sheldon Brown

"Paraffin (canning wax), although clean, works poorly because it is not
mobile and cannot replenish the bearing surfaces once it has been
displaced. This becomes apparent with any water that gets on the chain.
It immediately squeaks.

[I have found that motor oil works poorly: it washes out of the chain
due to its detergent properties -- John Allen.]"

Of course Jon Allen is clueless, and it hurts to see him wrecking
Sheldon's web site. You don't use detergent oil on a chain, if you are
going to use motor oil then you use non-detergent oil, i.e.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0052KYAMC


And even more recently a bloke who actually measures the effectiveness
of paraffin wax says it is the most effective lubricant. Most of the
above just talked a good race.

Can you show me a definitive test of the suitability of paraffin as a
lubricant by any of the above?

Note John Allen, above on the detergent qualities of motor oil. The
word, when applied to motor oil means the ability to dissolve and hold
in suspension foreign matter, i.e., dirt and metal particles. It
doesn't include water. Ask anyone that has gotten water in an engine's
oil. It doesn't form a solution and does separates into the two
components, water and oil, very rapidly.



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  #22  
Old November 22nd 16, 02:50 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 356
Default Waxing Chains?

On Mon, 21 Nov 2016 16:16:01 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/21/2016 11:34 AM, sms wrote:
On 11/20/2016 4:51 PM, John B Slocomb wrote:

Does anyone have any statistics regarding the length of time paraffin
wax lasts as a chain lubricant? Either in miles/kilometers ridden,
days/months between lube jobs, or other statistics?

When I used to use wax I used to re-wax probably every two weeks or so
but wonder whether a more relaxed schedule might be sufficient?


You can't go by time _or_ mileage, there are other factors as well.
What's the weather? Are you mixing oil in with the wax so there is a
lubricant still present once the wax is displaced?


It's as "logical" to say it's impossible for a person to tell which
jacket to wear. It could be cold; it could be hot; the temperature
might rise or fall; it may be breezy; it may be sunny; it may be cloudy.

Nothing can be determined! All is mystery! Ommmmmmmmm....



What the Experts say About Chain Waxing:

"When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.

"Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
of The Bicycle Wheel

"If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.

"Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
grease." Sheldon Brown

"Paraffin (canning wax), although clean, works poorly because it is not
mobile and cannot replenish the bearing surfaces once it has been
displaced. This becomes apparent with any water that gets on the chain.
It immediately squeaks.

[I have found that motor oil works poorly: it washes out of the chain
due to its detergent properties -- John Allen.]"

Of course Jon Allen is clueless, and it hurts to see him wrecking
Sheldon's web site. You don't use detergent oil on a chain, if you are
going to use motor oil then you use non-detergent oil, i.e.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0052KYAMC


You could go with opinions, or you could go with data and the experience
of those who have actually used a wax-oil mix.

http://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/new...formula-36424/

http://www.velonews.com/2013/03/bike...ith-wax_279148

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8052/...b1044b34_c.jpg

About John Allen: He's a very smart guy. But like most smart guys, his
opinions are sometimes incomplete, and sometimes just wrong.

In this case, his statement is incomplete. I'll agree (based on
experience) that pure paraffin wax squeaks quite soon after a rain. But
in my experience, the addition of a small amount of oil (perhaps gear
oil) to the wax removes that detriment completely, while still leaving
the considerable benefits of a wax lube. To prepare the mix, melt the
wax, pour in maybe 5% oil and stir.

As usual, I'm not trying to tell anybody what they should use on their
chains. I'm just trying to counter Steven M. Scharf's usual misinformation.


Frank, Frank! Such a radical you have turned into. Demanding facts
instead of supposed notions and uninformed gossip.

It is obvious that you have no chance in California politics
whatsoever with all this talk of "facts" and "data".
  #23  
Old November 22nd 16, 02:50 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 356
Default Waxing Chains?

On Mon, 21 Nov 2016 16:30:44 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/21/2016 3:58 PM, James wrote:
On 22/11/16 04:46, Doug Landau wrote:
On Sunday, November 20, 2016 at 5:49:13 PM UTC-8, James wrote:


At the moment I guess I ride 2-3000km between re-waxing. After a 1000km
or so the chain might start to sound a little dry. I find a very
sparing squirt of WD40 and wipe off the excess keeps the chain running
silently for another 1000km. My guess is that the WD40 softens the
remaining wax and turns it into grease and oil for a while.

I rode 100km yesterday after a little squirt of WD40. The chain ran
silent and smooth, but it's been a few months between re-waxing and
chain swapping, so I'll do that very soon.

Is this not going to accelerate wear by carrying grit down into the
chain?


Maybe, maybe not. Depends how clean or dirty the rollers of the chain
are I guess. Mine stay very clean.


Somewhat similarly, when I re-wax (with the chain on the bike, using
torch heat) I don't do much to clean the chain first; maybe just wipe it
down with paper towels, but often not even that.

I'm sure the new wax, when it melts, carries some microscopic grit into
the chain's crevices. I'm not worried about that slight deviation from
perfection. My bike, chain, chainrings and cogs still stay much cleaner
than with any other lube, my chain life seems longer (it's plenty long
enough to satisfy me), and the application process is faster than any
"bathe & oil" routine.


I just discovered the several year old chunk of solidified wax from
the cooker that I had used some years ago to wax chains. I remelted
the wax and one thing I noted was that any discolored matter - I
assumed dirt separated almost instantly from the wax. Five it a stir
and it turned almost black, wait just a moment and you could literally
see the black "gunk" settling to the bottom of the pan.

I wonder whether wax is more, or less, likely to carry dirt into a
chain?
  #24  
Old November 22nd 16, 03:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Waxing Chains?

On 11/21/2016 8:50 PM, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 21 Nov 2016 16:16:01 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/21/2016 11:34 AM, sms wrote:
On 11/20/2016 4:51 PM, John B Slocomb wrote:

Does anyone have any statistics regarding the length of time paraffin
wax lasts as a chain lubricant? Either in miles/kilometers ridden,
days/months between lube jobs, or other statistics?

When I used to use wax I used to re-wax probably every two weeks or so
but wonder whether a more relaxed schedule might be sufficient?

You can't go by time _or_ mileage, there are other factors as well.
What's the weather? Are you mixing oil in with the wax so there is a
lubricant still present once the wax is displaced?


It's as "logical" to say it's impossible for a person to tell which
jacket to wear. It could be cold; it could be hot; the temperature
might rise or fall; it may be breezy; it may be sunny; it may be cloudy.

Nothing can be determined! All is mystery! Ommmmmmmmm....



What the Experts say About Chain Waxing:

"When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.

"Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
of The Bicycle Wheel

"If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.

"Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
grease." Sheldon Brown

"Paraffin (canning wax), although clean, works poorly because it is not
mobile and cannot replenish the bearing surfaces once it has been
displaced. This becomes apparent with any water that gets on the chain.
It immediately squeaks.

[I have found that motor oil works poorly: it washes out of the chain
due to its detergent properties -- John Allen.]"

Of course Jon Allen is clueless, and it hurts to see him wrecking
Sheldon's web site. You don't use detergent oil on a chain, if you are
going to use motor oil then you use non-detergent oil, i.e.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0052KYAMC


You could go with opinions, or you could go with data and the experience
of those who have actually used a wax-oil mix.

http://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/new...formula-36424/

http://www.velonews.com/2013/03/bike...ith-wax_279148

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8052/...b1044b34_c.jpg

About John Allen: He's a very smart guy. But like most smart guys, his
opinions are sometimes incomplete, and sometimes just wrong.

In this case, his statement is incomplete. I'll agree (based on
experience) that pure paraffin wax squeaks quite soon after a rain. But
in my experience, the addition of a small amount of oil (perhaps gear
oil) to the wax removes that detriment completely, while still leaving
the considerable benefits of a wax lube. To prepare the mix, melt the
wax, pour in maybe 5% oil and stir.

As usual, I'm not trying to tell anybody what they should use on their
chains. I'm just trying to counter Steven M. Scharf's usual misinformation.


Frank, Frank! Such a radical you have turned into. Demanding facts
instead of supposed notions and uninformed gossip.

It is obvious that you have no chance in California politics
whatsoever with all this talk of "facts" and "data".


I'll admit, Scharf is ahead of me on that matter.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #25  
Old November 22nd 16, 07:34 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,153
Default Waxing Chains?

On 22/11/16 12:50, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 22 Nov 2016 07:51:52 +1100, James
wrote:

On 21/11/16 23:21, John B Slocomb wrote:


Re "hot waxing". I have a tube of commercial "wax" chain lube that
seems to be, based on warnings of "highly inflammable" some sort of
wax-highly volatile solvent mix. I have a faint recollection of
someone mixing paraffin with gasoline at elevated temperatures for
some purpose, not that I want to attempt that feat :-) but I wonder if
paraffin is soluble in some sort of volatile liquid. It might be a
means of formulating an emergency (carry some with you) chain lube.


It does dissolve in very light hydrocarbon fractions.


At ambient temperatures? I've been trying to recollect the details of
the story I remembered about the paraffin and gasoline, but I seem to
remember that cooking it over a fire was a part of the recipe... which
didn't sound like something I wanted to try out in the driveway :-)


I can't remember. I did it once but the result went sticky as the
solvent dried. I didn't persist.

--
JS
  #26  
Old November 22nd 16, 07:45 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH
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Posts: 2,011
Default Waxing Chains?

Mix with silicone as CRC or research

https://www.google.com/search?gl=us&...k1.mx1dSBgicnY
  #27  
Old November 22nd 16, 02:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,011
Default Waxing Chains?


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\


Mix with silicone as CRC or research

https://www.google.com/search?gl=us&...k1.mx1dSBgicnY

https://www.google.com/#q=bicycle+chain+wax+lubricant
  #28  
Old November 22nd 16, 02:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,011
Default Waxing Chains?

On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 at 1:34:27 AM UTC-5, James wrote:
On 22/11/16 12:50, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 22 Nov 2016 07:51:52 +1100, James
wrote:

On 21/11/16 23:21, John B Slocomb wrote:


Re "hot waxing". I have a tube of commercial "wax" chain lube that
seems to be, based on warnings of "highly inflammable" some sort of
wax-highly volatile solvent mix. I have a faint recollection of
someone mixing paraffin with gasoline at elevated temperatures for
some purpose, not that I want to attempt that feat :-) but I wonder if
paraffin is soluble in some sort of volatile liquid. It might be a
means of formulating an emergency (carry some with you) chain lube.


It does dissolve in very light hydrocarbon fractions.


At ambient temperatures? I've been trying to recollect the details of
the story I remembered about the paraffin and gasoline, but I seem to
remember that cooking it over a fire was a part of the recipe... which
didn't sound like something I wanted to try out in the driveway :-)


I can't remember. I did it once but the result went sticky as the
solvent dried. I didn't persist.

--
JS


overall, the treatment renders wax sticky to slightly more fluid so what you tried was successful in the right direction.
  #29  
Old November 22nd 16, 08:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,424
Default Waxing Chains?

On Monday, November 21, 2016 at 5:50:49 PM UTC-8, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 21 Nov 2016 08:34:25 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/20/2016 4:51 PM, John B Slocomb wrote:

Does anyone have any statistics regarding the length of time paraffin
wax lasts as a chain lubricant? Either in miles/kilometers ridden,
days/months between lube jobs, or other statistics?

When I used to use wax I used to re-wax probably every two weeks or so
but wonder whether a more relaxed schedule might be sufficient?


You can't go by time _or_ mileage, there are other factors as well.
What's the weather? Are you mixing oil in with the wax so there is a
lubricant still present once the wax is displaced?

What the Experts say About Chain Waxing:

"When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.

I'm not sure I believe that. I used wax, applied at high temperatures
and allowed to harden with both down tube friction shifters and
"Brifters" and never had a single instance of shifting problems.

"Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
of The Bicycle Wheel

"If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.

"Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
grease." Sheldon Brown

"Paraffin (canning wax), although clean, works poorly because it is not
mobile and cannot replenish the bearing surfaces once it has been
displaced. This becomes apparent with any water that gets on the chain.
It immediately squeaks.

[I have found that motor oil works poorly: it washes out of the chain
due to its detergent properties -- John Allen.]"

Of course Jon Allen is clueless, and it hurts to see him wrecking
Sheldon's web site. You don't use detergent oil on a chain, if you are
going to use motor oil then you use non-detergent oil, i.e.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0052KYAMC


And even more recently a bloke who actually measures the effectiveness
of paraffin wax says it is the most effective lubricant. Most of the
above just talked a good race.

Can you show me a definitive test of the suitability of paraffin as a
lubricant by any of the above?

Note John Allen, above on the detergent qualities of motor oil. The
word, when applied to motor oil means the ability to dissolve and hold
in suspension foreign matter, i.e., dirt and metal particles. It
doesn't include water. Ask anyone that has gotten water in an engine's
oil. It doesn't form a solution and does separates into the two
components, water and oil, very rapidly.


Thought I read here that oil absorbs moisture, and steel surfaces with a film of oil will rust

  #30  
Old November 23rd 16, 12:18 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,011
Default Waxing Chains?

Thought I read here that oil absorbs moisture, and steel surfaces with a film of oil will rust

specific gravity see google images chart specific gravity

linseed oil n silicone oil aka Aerospace 303 n family are heavier than water.

the bad news is oil from the refinery may have water init...oil intended for warm climates need not be 100% dry. Grease is highly suspect.

 




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