True Temper calling it quits

On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 3:46:28 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-30 15:29, wrote:
On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 3:14:11 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-30 13:21, wrote:
On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 9:48:18 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-30 08:48, David Scheidt wrote:
Joerg wrote: :On 2016-12-29
17:28, Doug Landau wrote: : I guess this is old news by now.
: :
http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/...le-tubing-line



:It is unusual considering the renewed interest in steel. Even
old :experienced manufacturers say that, like in the article
at the bottom of :your link:

:http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/...n-fiber-frames





Tha'ts because they can't possibly compete with the chinese mass
prouced carbon frames. Steel is a nich product, and the
labor costs are lower.


Probably. It's the same almost everywhere. I design
electronics and every time a client transfers production to
Asia the cost drops to half or less. Including materials and
all. The quality is usually superb (I often get to check that).
Overcoming such a large difference is going to be a tall order.
The cost of doing business in the US is too high. How much that
(hopefully) improves with the new administration remains to be
seen.

If I'd need a new bike it would have a titanium frame.
Probably from Bikesdirect.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

In my experience Japanese and Taiwanese products are good. But
Taiwanese and Chinese products have very spotty quality control.
Hell even a non-stick saucepan has even butter sticking to it.


My MTB buddy has a lot of MTB. Two Specialized FS bikes, two fat
bikes from Bikesdirect and a titanium HT from Bikesdirect. The
quality on all of them is great, welds, geometric precision, build
quality in general. The titanium bike impresses me the most. It has
seen a lot of crashes and doesn't even have a dent.

The only downside I see with Ti-frames is that all of the ones I
have seen so far lack mounts for luggage racks and stuff. Something
that even the Gazelle steel frame of my road bike has. So you end
up doing the usual, making brackets. Well, nothing is perfect.

Titanium road bikes were notorious for splitting longitudinally at
the welds. My Colnago BiTitan was one of those and since it was
second hand Colnago laughed in my face.

One of the group members has a Litespeed and I warned him where to
look and he gave me a ration of s. The VERY next week he didn't show
up for the ride because his frake had split just where I told him to
look. It was replaced but he has reservations now. Now as I say,
these cracks were longitudinally along the tubes and probably weren't
dangerous but would you like to be riding on a broken expensive frame
when they have a lifetime guarantee for the original owner?


Interesting, first time I hear of that issue. So that means our
grandparents knew best and we should go back to Reynolds 531?

I was very surprised when I saw the steel frame of my road bike being
offered at auctions for several hundred bucks. It is definitely not a
collectors bike. The only reason it gets many looks is that it is over
30years old.

Steel has one major advantage in that it can be welded/brazed without
super special equipment and skills. So frame mods are possible.
Something I truly wish I could do with my MTB but that's all hydroformed
aluminum.

Does anyone make a double-suspended steel MTB frame?

-- Jay Beattie.

On 12/30/2016 3:05 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/30/2016 1:46 PM, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
the aforementioned posters are shoveling **** getting yawl into THEIR
post.

while steel is real in a custom bike Ti is more real...and equally
endangered.

at what level $$$$$ for custom does an extra shovel of $$$$ interfere
with surreality

?

CF gives me a headache. In kayak canoe and bicycle. neurotic ... Ima
gonna get an aspirin.

what CF malfunctions ? we have looked hi and lo for reports n found
barely a handful with a couplah fork disasters....also finding
malfunction reports go back to the factory not to liability insurance
adjusters n the State Board


Dear Gene-
https://images.devilfinder.com/go.ph...carbon+bicycle

everything breaks.



For a while there it seemed like we were seeing fairly-regular stories
of road bike carbon fork failures, even among amateurs not trying to
break them. This was around the time the companies making them stopped
using steel steerer tubes and went to full-carbon construction, IIRC.

'Course, steel probably went through this phase also. But it was 100-odd
years ago....

I still get flack online for suggesting that CF bike parts are
disposable, and shouldn't be repaired.

Others insist it's okay since Calfee and a couple other places will take
your money and put more plastic goop on it for you, but no other
endeavor elsewhere does that (planes, cars, boats, other sporting goods
equipment, ect).

With everything else--any time you suffer structural damage in a
composite part, you throw it away and you go buy a new one.

? All composites are repairable from Stealth tO Kayak ....

On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 21:35:34 -0600, DougC
wrote:

On 12/30/2016 3:05 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/30/2016 1:46 PM, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
the aforementioned posters are shoveling **** getting yawl into THEIR
post.

while steel is real in a custom bike Ti is more real...and equally
endangered.

at what level $$$$$ for custom does an extra shovel of $$$$ interfere
with surreality

?

CF gives me a headache. In kayak canoe and bicycle. neurotic ... Ima
gonna get an aspirin.

what CF malfunctions ? we have looked hi and lo for reports n found
barely a handful with a couplah fork disasters....also finding
malfunction reports go back to the factory not to liability insurance
adjusters n the State Board


Dear Gene-
https://images.devilfinder.com/go.ph...carbon+bicycle

everything breaks.



For a while there it seemed like we were seeing fairly-regular stories
of road bike carbon fork failures, even among amateurs not trying to
break them. This was around the time the companies making them stopped
using steel steerer tubes and went to full-carbon construction, IIRC.

'Course, steel probably went through this phase also. But it was 100-odd
years ago....

I still get flack online for suggesting that CF bike parts are
disposable, and shouldn't be repaired.

Others insist it's okay since Calfee and a couple other places will take
your money and put more plastic goop on it for you, but no other
endeavor elsewhere does that (planes, cars, boats, other sporting goods
equipment, ect).

Not true. I have a good friend who's business is essentially repairing
and rebuilding composite boats, the EAA has rather extensive
instructions for repairing damaged composite home built aircraft and
Chevrolet Corvette's have been made with composite bodies since the
early 50's and I doubt that the owners threw them away when they
dinged a fender.




With everything else--any time you suffer structural damage in a
composite part, you throw it away and you go buy a new one.
--
cheers,

John B.

Repairing a "part' as the fork is not a reasonable idea.

What we found in the past CF discussion was 'stories' of broken forks did not generate incident evidence tho the search was clouded by lack of accessible data.

That is, forks may have cracked but stories of fork failures at speed leading to extensive plasting surgery did not play out.

At that time consensus here was CF fork use was unnecessarily risky, evidence or not.

On 12/31/2016 12:02 AM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 21:35:34 -0600, DougC
wrote:

For a while there it seemed like we were seeing fairly-regular stories
of road bike carbon fork failures, even among amateurs not trying to
break them. This was around the time the companies making them stopped
using steel steerer tubes and went to full-carbon construction, IIRC.

'Course, steel probably went through this phase also. But it was 100-odd
years ago....

I still get flack online for suggesting that CF bike parts are
disposable, and shouldn't be repaired.

Others insist it's okay since Calfee and a couple other places will take
your money and put more plastic goop on it for you, but no other
endeavor elsewhere does that (planes, cars, boats, other sporting goods
equipment, ect).

Not true. I have a good friend who's business is essentially repairing
and rebuilding composite boats, the EAA has rather extensive
instructions for repairing damaged composite home built aircraft and
Chevrolet Corvette's have been made with composite bodies since the
early 50's and I doubt that the owners threw them away when they
dinged a fender.




Yea but boat hulls, aircraft skin and car body panels aren't
highly-stressed structural parts like a bicycle frame is.

They make composite aircraft propellers, does anybody repair them if
they suffer structural damage?

The Corvette uses a fiberglass leaf spring in the rear, does anybody
repair them if they crack or split?

Composites are a bunch of long interleaved fibers, with some plastic
sticking them together. Once you get a crack in one spot, the
interleaved fibers are broken in half right there and there's no way to
make it back the way it was before it broke.

What do these CF bicycle frame companies have to say about trying to
repair a cracked frame?....I would bet they'd say it's not a wise idea.
.....If it was, they would offer that service, right?
Because, you know, they could do it better than anyone else, right?...

gnaw ...the biz runs on selling bikes.

......... fewer failures the better no prob.

......... no repair is best


anyway, 2-3 layers of cloth over a fracture is srong enough.

the prob maybe with bike frames is the failure occurs near the joint ( one in the Muzi collection ?) a cloth wrap is difficult, unsightly ! yuch ! and idea would arises the crack is a defect manifestation in manufacturing the joint...strongly implying the joint crack is repairable but the joint isnot.

On 12/31/2016 6:55 AM, DougC wrote:
On 12/31/2016 12:02 AM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 21:35:34 -0600, DougC

wrote:

For a while there it seemed like we were seeing
fairly-regular stories
of road bike carbon fork failures, even among amateurs
not trying to
break them. This was around the time the companies making
them stopped
using steel steerer tubes and went to full-carbon
construction, IIRC.

'Course, steel probably went through this phase also. But
it was 100-odd
years ago....

I still get flack online for suggesting that CF bike
parts are
disposable, and shouldn't be repaired.

Others insist it's okay since Calfee and a couple other
places will take
your money and put more plastic goop on it for you, but
no other
endeavor elsewhere does that (planes, cars, boats, other
sporting goods
equipment, ect).

Not true. I have a good friend who's business is
essentially repairing
and rebuilding composite boats, the EAA has rather extensive
instructions for repairing damaged composite home built
aircraft and
Chevrolet Corvette's have been made with composite bodies
since the
early 50's and I doubt that the owners threw them away
when they
dinged a fender.




Yea but boat hulls, aircraft skin and car body panels aren't
highly-stressed structural parts like a bicycle frame is.

They make composite aircraft propellers, does anybody repair
them if they suffer structural damage?

The Corvette uses a fiberglass leaf spring in the rear, does
anybody repair them if they crack or split?

Composites are a bunch of long interleaved fibers, with some
plastic sticking them together. Once you get a crack in one
spot, the interleaved fibers are broken in half right there
and there's no way to make it back the way it was before it
broke.

What do these CF bicycle frame companies have to say about
trying to repair a cracked frame?....I would bet they'd say
it's not a wise idea.
....If it was, they would offer that service, right?
Because, you know, they could do it better than anyone else,
right?...




Let's not be categorical about that (or any material).

There are several good experienced carbon bicycle repair
guys besides Calfee. A quick perusal of their web photos
might elucidate the range of repairs for you. I assume that
just like steel there are jobs they refuse, where
cost/risk/value don't align well.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 10:02:18 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 21:35:34 -0600, DougC
wrote:

On 12/30/2016 3:05 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/30/2016 1:46 PM, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
the aforementioned posters are shoveling **** getting yawl into THEIR
post.

while steel is real in a custom bike Ti is more real...and equally
endangered.

at what level $$$$$ for custom does an extra shovel of $$$$ interfere
with surreality

?

CF gives me a headache. In kayak canoe and bicycle. neurotic ... Ima
gonna get an aspirin.

what CF malfunctions ? we have looked hi and lo for reports n found
barely a handful with a couplah fork disasters....also finding
malfunction reports go back to the factory not to liability insurance
adjusters n the State Board


Dear Gene-
https://images.devilfinder.com/go.ph...carbon+bicycle

everything breaks.



For a while there it seemed like we were seeing fairly-regular stories
of road bike carbon fork failures, even among amateurs not trying to
break them. This was around the time the companies making them stopped
using steel steerer tubes and went to full-carbon construction, IIRC.

'Course, steel probably went through this phase also. But it was 100-odd
years ago....

I still get flack online for suggesting that CF bike parts are
disposable, and shouldn't be repaired.

Others insist it's okay since Calfee and a couple other places will take
your money and put more plastic goop on it for you, but no other
endeavor elsewhere does that (planes, cars, boats, other sporting goods
equipment, ect).

Not true. I have a good friend who's business is essentially repairing
and rebuilding composite boats, the EAA has rather extensive
instructions for repairing damaged composite home built aircraft and
Chevrolet Corvette's have been made with composite bodies since the
early 50's and I doubt that the owners threw them away when they
dinged a fender.




With everything else--any time you suffer structural damage in a
composite part, you throw it away and you go buy a new one.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 10:02:18 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 21:35:34 -0600, DougC
wrote:

On 12/30/2016 3:05 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/30/2016 1:46 PM, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
the aforementioned posters are shoveling **** getting yawl into THEIR
post.

while steel is real in a custom bike Ti is more real...and equally
endangered.

at what level $$$$$ for custom does an extra shovel of $$$$ interfere
with surreality

?

CF gives me a headache. In kayak canoe and bicycle. neurotic ... Ima
gonna get an aspirin.

what CF malfunctions ? we have looked hi and lo for reports n found
barely a handful with a couplah fork disasters....also finding
malfunction reports go back to the factory not to liability insurance
adjusters n the State Board


Dear Gene-
https://images.devilfinder.com/go.ph...carbon+bicycle

everything breaks.



For a while there it seemed like we were seeing fairly-regular stories
of road bike carbon fork failures, even among amateurs not trying to
break them. This was around the time the companies making them stopped
using steel steerer tubes and went to full-carbon construction, IIRC.

'Course, steel probably went through this phase also. But it was 100-odd
years ago....

I still get flack online for suggesting that CF bike parts are
disposable, and shouldn't be repaired.

Others insist it's okay since Calfee and a couple other places will take
your money and put more plastic goop on it for you, but no other
endeavor elsewhere does that (planes, cars, boats, other sporting goods
equipment, ect).

Not true. I have a good friend who's business is essentially repairing
and rebuilding composite boats, the EAA has rather extensive
instructions for repairing damaged composite home built aircraft and
Chevrolet Corvette's have been made with composite bodies since the
early 50's and I doubt that the owners threw them away when they
dinged a fender.




With everything else--any time you suffer structural damage in a
composite part, you throw it away and you go buy a new one.

John, do you have the idea that they stick the crashed front end of a Corvette back together? Or a wing section of a small aircraft? What are these composite boats that you're talking about that are constructed with mostly carbon fiber?