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#11
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Electric-assist bikes
On 2/3/17 10:06 PM, Ned Mantei wrote:
More recently I occasionally see E-mountain bikes, something that I can't imagine using. Often enough part of my bike tour will involve pushing the bike up a steep trail, lifting it up stairs or over rocks and tree roots, or even having to lift it over a fence. Wouldn't be fun or even possible if the bike weighs 35 kg. I've hiked with 35+ KG on my back. So it is possible. But it most assuredly was not fun. -- Wes Groleau |
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#12
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Electric-assist bikes
On 2/3/2017 2:47 PM, W. Wesley Groleau wrote:
On 2/3/17 5:20 PM, Joerg wrote: We'll all get there where regular cycling might not be in the cards anymore but we still want to get out I'd rather be found next to my bike on the road than next to my bed in the nursing home. +1 -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#13
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Electric-assist bikes
On 2017-02-03 12:47, W. Wesley Groleau wrote:
On 2/3/17 5:20 PM, Joerg wrote: We'll all get there where regular cycling might not be in the cards anymore but we still want to get out I'd rather be found next to my bike on the road than next to my bed in the nursing home. It may not be your choice to make. A friend hopped on his old road bike in his 80's, fell, cracked several rib ... pneumonia ... survived but it was a close call. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#14
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Electric-assist bikes
On 2017-02-03 12:49, W. Wesley Groleau wrote:
On 2/3/17 6:04 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote: Per Joerg: I saw more in Europe, a lot more as a percentage in the last years (Germany) and those were pedal-only assist. They didn't go faster than a regular road biker but they could zip up hills easier. When I was fooling around with electric bikes, I think I read that the Euro standard was 12 mph top speed - about 20 kph. Made sense to me... With petrol-powered mopeds allowed to do thirty MPH, I don't understand why electrics should have a different limit. Not that I see much value in something that can't get me to the next town. AFAIR those gas-powered ones are not allowed on bike paths in many EU countries. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#15
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Electric-assist bikes
On 2/3/2017 4:06 PM, Ned Mantei wrote:
On 03-02-17 17:08, Frank Krygowski wrote: Electric-assist bikes are coming on strong. And there's some confusion over how to treat them legally. In the U.S., at least, it seems the trend is toward three legal classes of electric bicycles, and having them generally following bicycle laws, as opposed to motorcycle laws. Class 1 would be electric assist only while the operator is pedaling, with the assist cutting out at 20 mph (32 kph). (I'm not aware of any lower limit on pedal torque or pedal power input - perhaps lightly twirling a 56x11 gear would qualify?) Class 2 would be no pedaling required, throttle controlled, but also limited to 20 mph. Class 3 would be pedaling required, but limited to 28 mph (45 kph). That's fast. I have no trouble with any of those on ordinary roads. But IMO, areas of concern are segregated bike facilities. For example, it's not uncommon for rail-trails, multi-use paths etc. to prohibit motors (except for handicap-assist devices like wheelchairs) and thus prohibit these things either intentionally or unintentionally. Speed limits may exist, but they're difficult to enforce. More seriously, even ordinary striped bike lanes cause some conflicts between slower and faster riders. Cattle shoots - oops, make that "protected cycletracks" - are even worse, with narrow widths, hard sides (curbs & parked cars) and sometimes even bi-directional flow. Can you imagine some 16-year-old hotshot at 20 or 28 mph zooming through the slower riders and blasting through an intersection from a hidden cycletrack? I'm posting to find out what people are saying and what laws are being written. I'm interested primarily in North American states and provinces, but I'm somewhat curious about other countries too, although I'd like to keep in mind that America is not Amsterdam. And of course, if anyone has experience where there are already lots of these things, I'd like to know how it's working out. - Frank Krygowski Here in Switzerland there are two classes: * Those that will do 25 km/hr (ca. 15 mph) on the level are classed as bicycles, and are allowed on all bike paths. * Those that will do 45 km/h are put in the same class as low-displacement motorbikes with pedals ("mopeds"), and also have the same type of license plate. My impression is that these are not allowed in situations such as when the bike lane is on a wide sidewalk that is also used by pedestrians. Concerning bike trails, I would note that here one is much less limited in where to ride. Out in the countryside all the forest and field roads are open to bicycles--even when the road passes right through the barnyard. No one including the farmer finds this to be a problem. It can, however, require waiting for the cows to pass by on their way from the meadow back to the barn. Overall this road system allows for a quiet and pleasant ride with little or no traffic beyond the occasional tractor. Both types of E-bikes have become very common within the last 5 years or so. There seem to be 3 main classes of users: * generally elderly people on an excursion out in the countryside, as described above mainly on forest and field roads, * those dealing with heavy loads, such as 2 kids in a trailer or a bakfiets (cargo bike), since even a slight hill gets very difficult without the motor, and * commuters who need to get to work relatively quickly and shouldn't be or don't want to be hot and sweaty when they get there. These commuters are the people most likely to be riding the faster E-bikes. The people who want to go fast (45 km/h) are generally on ordinary streets, and so not much different from those on motor scooters or mopeds. I think that all of this works out very well. For myself I still prefer just pedaling, but if the choice were staying home or using an E-bike I would certainly want the bike. More recently I occasionally see E-mountain bikes, something that I can't imagine using. Often enough part of my bike tour will involve pushing the bike up a steep trail, lifting it up stairs or over rocks and tree roots, or even having to lift it over a fence. Wouldn't be fun or even possible if the bike weighs 35 kg. Ned Thanks. That's good information. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#16
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Electric-assist bikes
On 2/3/2017 4:26 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-02-03 12:47, W. Wesley Groleau wrote: On 2/3/17 5:20 PM, Joerg wrote: We'll all get there where regular cycling might not be in the cards anymore but we still want to get out I'd rather be found next to my bike on the road than next to my bed in the nursing home. It may not be your choice to make. A friend hopped on his old road bike in his 80's, fell, cracked several rib ... pneumonia ... survived but it was a close call. I'm pretty sure I'm going to die one way or another. A bike crash, while _extremely_ unlikely, would be one of the better ways to go, I think. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#17
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Electric-assist bikes
On Fri, 3 Feb 2017 16:50:03 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 2/3/2017 4:26 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2017-02-03 12:47, W. Wesley Groleau wrote: On 2/3/17 5:20 PM, Joerg wrote: We'll all get there where regular cycling might not be in the cards anymore but we still want to get out I'd rather be found next to my bike on the road than next to my bed in the nursing home. It may not be your choice to make. A friend hopped on his old road bike in his 80's, fell, cracked several rib ... pneumonia ... survived but it was a close call. I'm pretty sure I'm going to die one way or another. A bike crash, while _extremely_ unlikely, would be one of the better ways to go, I think. Bedtter than suffering through 2 or more years of Multiple Myeloma (or even the totally different Melanoma) |
#18
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Electric-assist bikes
On 2017-02-03 13:06, Ned Mantei wrote:
On 03-02-17 17:08, Frank Krygowski wrote: Electric-assist bikes are coming on strong. And there's some confusion over how to treat them legally. In the U.S., at least, it seems the trend is toward three legal classes of electric bicycles, and having them generally following bicycle laws, as opposed to motorcycle laws. Class 1 would be electric assist only while the operator is pedaling, with the assist cutting out at 20 mph (32 kph). (I'm not aware of any lower limit on pedal torque or pedal power input - perhaps lightly twirling a 56x11 gear would qualify?) Class 2 would be no pedaling required, throttle controlled, but also limited to 20 mph. Class 3 would be pedaling required, but limited to 28 mph (45 kph). That's fast. I have no trouble with any of those on ordinary roads. But IMO, areas of concern are segregated bike facilities. For example, it's not uncommon for rail-trails, multi-use paths etc. to prohibit motors (except for handicap-assist devices like wheelchairs) and thus prohibit these things either intentionally or unintentionally. Speed limits may exist, but they're difficult to enforce. More seriously, even ordinary striped bike lanes cause some conflicts between slower and faster riders. Cattle shoots - oops, make that "protected cycletracks" - are even worse, with narrow widths, hard sides (curbs & parked cars) and sometimes even bi-directional flow. Can you imagine some 16-year-old hotshot at 20 or 28 mph zooming through the slower riders and blasting through an intersection from a hidden cycletrack? I'm posting to find out what people are saying and what laws are being written. I'm interested primarily in North American states and provinces, but I'm somewhat curious about other countries too, although I'd like to keep in mind that America is not Amsterdam. And of course, if anyone has experience where there are already lots of these things, I'd like to know how it's working out. - Frank Krygowski Here in Switzerland there are two classes: * Those that will do 25 km/hr (ca. 15 mph) on the level are classed as bicycles, and are allowed on all bike paths. When I lived in Europe this sometimes included gas-powered slow bikes. In Germany they called them MoFa which is short for Motor-Fahrrad or Motorized Bicycle. In the Netherlands they called them Bromfiets which translates to "Humming Bicycle". The simplest one was made by the carburetor company Solex. They called it Velo Solex and the engine drove a rubber gear which could be lowered onto the front tire via a handle. A front-wheel driven bicycle. Considering the position of the gas tank a serious head-on collision was not advised. http://racem.org/wp-content/uploads/...olex-330-4.jpg Sometimes on the way back from the valley I wish I has such a little engine. * Those that will do 45 km/h are put in the same class as low-displacement motorbikes with pedals ("mopeds"), and also have the same type of license plate. My impression is that these are not allowed in situations such as when the bike lane is on a wide sidewalk that is also used by pedestrians. Concerning bike trails, I would note that here one is much less limited in where to ride. Out in the countryside all the forest and field roads are open to bicycles--even when the road passes right through the barnyard. No one including the farmer finds this to be a problem. It can, however, require waiting for the cows to pass by on their way from the meadow back to the barn. This is why the German word for fender is Kotfluegel. Fluegel is a sort of "covering wing" and Kot means, well, the smelly stuff that cows drop onto the path. [...] -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#19
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Electric-assist bikes
On 2/3/2017 4:38 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-02-03 13:06, Ned Mantei wrote: On 03-02-17 17:08, Frank Krygowski wrote: Electric-assist bikes are coming on strong. And there's some confusion over how to treat them legally. In the U.S., at least, it seems the trend is toward three legal classes of electric bicycles, and having them generally following bicycle laws, as opposed to motorcycle laws. Class 1 would be electric assist only while the operator is pedaling, with the assist cutting out at 20 mph (32 kph). (I'm not aware of any lower limit on pedal torque or pedal power input - perhaps lightly twirling a 56x11 gear would qualify?) Class 2 would be no pedaling required, throttle controlled, but also limited to 20 mph. Class 3 would be pedaling required, but limited to 28 mph (45 kph). That's fast. I have no trouble with any of those on ordinary roads. But IMO, areas of concern are segregated bike facilities. For example, it's not uncommon for rail-trails, multi-use paths etc. to prohibit motors (except for handicap-assist devices like wheelchairs) and thus prohibit these things either intentionally or unintentionally. Speed limits may exist, but they're difficult to enforce. More seriously, even ordinary striped bike lanes cause some conflicts between slower and faster riders. Cattle shoots - oops, make that "protected cycletracks" - are even worse, with narrow widths, hard sides (curbs & parked cars) and sometimes even bi-directional flow. Can you imagine some 16-year-old hotshot at 20 or 28 mph zooming through the slower riders and blasting through an intersection from a hidden cycletrack? I'm posting to find out what people are saying and what laws are being written. I'm interested primarily in North American states and provinces, but I'm somewhat curious about other countries too, although I'd like to keep in mind that America is not Amsterdam. And of course, if anyone has experience where there are already lots of these things, I'd like to know how it's working out. - Frank Krygowski Here in Switzerland there are two classes: * Those that will do 25 km/hr (ca. 15 mph) on the level are classed as bicycles, and are allowed on all bike paths. When I lived in Europe this sometimes included gas-powered slow bikes. In Germany they called them MoFa which is short for Motor-Fahrrad or Motorized Bicycle. In the Netherlands they called them Bromfiets which translates to "Humming Bicycle". The simplest one was made by the carburetor company Solex. They called it Velo Solex and the engine drove a rubber gear which could be lowered onto the front tire via a handle. A front-wheel driven bicycle. Considering the position of the gas tank a serious head-on collision was not advised. http://racem.org/wp-content/uploads/...olex-330-4.jpg Sometimes on the way back from the valley I wish I has such a little engine. * Those that will do 45 km/h are put in the same class as low-displacement motorbikes with pedals ("mopeds"), and also have the same type of license plate. My impression is that these are not allowed in situations such as when the bike lane is on a wide sidewalk that is also used by pedestrians. Concerning bike trails, I would note that here one is much less limited in where to ride. Out in the countryside all the forest and field roads are open to bicycles--even when the road passes right through the barnyard. No one including the farmer finds this to be a problem. It can, however, require waiting for the cows to pass by on their way from the meadow back to the barn. This is why the German word for fender is Kotfluegel. Fluegel is a sort of "covering wing" and Kot means, well, the smelly stuff that cows drop onto the path. [...] re VeloSolex dangers; Yes, Paul McCartney lost his front teeth to one. Millions of other people managed these, and copies, for many years while they were fashionable. YMMV -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#20
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Electric-assist bikes
On Friday, February 3, 2017 at 2:17:38 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Fri, 3 Feb 2017 16:50:03 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/3/2017 4:26 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2017-02-03 12:47, W. Wesley Groleau wrote: On 2/3/17 5:20 PM, Joerg wrote: We'll all get there where regular cycling might not be in the cards anymore but we still want to get out I'd rather be found next to my bike on the road than next to my bed in the nursing home. It may not be your choice to make. A friend hopped on his old road bike in his 80's, fell, cracked several rib ... pneumonia ... survived but it was a close call. I'm pretty sure I'm going to die one way or another. A bike crash, while _extremely_ unlikely, would be one of the better ways to go, I think. Bedtter than suffering through 2 or more years of Multiple Myeloma (or even the totally different Melanoma) That's 'MelanIA' |
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