Your flavor of Western democracy may matter less than time to workout the kinks

Churchill, who was half an American, and very much at home in the States, said that democracy was the worst of all governing systems, except for all the others. Most well-travelled, thoughtful people agree.

Churchill also said that most people (probably meaning of middle/professional classes but not in politics) admire democracy until they speak to one of the voters who have the numbers to change the government. (I've given a very long paraphrase because you have to understand the context and the nuances.)

About Slow Johnny, Ridesalot Duane's remarks about the Canadian and British systems in the rec.bicycles.tech thread "Bill would ban bicyclists from most 2-lane roads in Montana", you might want to consider for a moment that the British and their colonials had about twice as long to work the kinks out of their system as Americans have, and they haven't avoided coming to blows either (though admittedly their shooting civil wars are half a millennium in the past), and they also have their extreme partisans (for instance the destructive British Labour Left, supposedly wiped out by Tony Blair, who simply packaged Mrs Thatcher's policies in left-wing language to move the party rightward and right into the middle classes, but now resurgent under Jeremy Corbyn).

There's another system that works, though often through deadlock, but it requires a great deal of civilized patience from everyone involved. It is proportional representation. The leading contemporary small-scale system (for ease of studying) is that in Israel, where one can daily see the advantages and disadvantages of proportional representation. Unfortunately, in the larger systems, of which the European Union government is the nastiest example, and several European countries are failed examples, proportional representation eventually leads to passionless, technocratic governments without any philosophy to distinguish the centre-left parties contesting elections. Passion, such as stirred up in parts of their electorates by Muslim immigration, terrorism and rapes, comes as a shock to these technocrats (it is difficult to believe how much they assume a sort of Chicom groupthink is the norm until you see their shock at a breach of the norm), much like Trump came as a shock to the complacent, limp Left in the US.

Andre Jute
At home wherever I land

incoherent babble


tie a string to your foot n go downwind

On 07/02/2017 8:16 AM, Andre Jute wrote:

Churchill, who was half an American, and very much at home in the States, said that democracy was the worst of all governing systems, except for all the others. Most well-travelled, thoughtful people agree.

Churchill also said that most people (probably meaning of middle/professional classes but not in politics) admire democracy until they speak to one of the voters who have the numbers to change the government. (I've given a very long paraphrase because you have to understand the context and the nuances.)

About Slow Johnny, Ridesalot Duane's remarks about the Canadian and British systems in the rec.bicycles.tech thread "Bill would ban bicyclists from most 2-lane roads in Montana", you might want to consider for a moment that the British and their colonials had about twice as long to work the kinks out of their system as Americans have, and they haven't avoided coming to blows either (though admittedly their shooting civil wars are half a millennium in the past), and they also have their extreme partisans (for instance the destructive British Labour Left, supposedly wiped out by Tony Blair, who simply packaged Mrs Thatcher's policies in left-wing language to move the party rightward and right into the middle classes, but now resurgent under Jeremy Corbyn).

There's another system that works, though often through deadlock, but it requires a great deal of civilized patience from everyone involved. It is proportional representation. The leading contemporary small-scale system (for ease of studying) is that in Israel, where one can daily see the advantages and disadvantages of proportional representation. Unfortunately, in the larger systems, of which the European Union government is the nastiest example, and several European countries are failed examples, proportional representation eventually leads to passionless, technocratic governments without any philosophy to distinguish the centre-left parties contesting elections. Passion, such as stirred up in parts of their electorates by Muslim immigration, terrorism and rapes, comes as a shock to these technocrats (it is difficult to believe how much they assume a sort of Chicom groupthink is the norm until you see their shock at a breach of the norm), much like Trump came as a shock to the complacent, limp Left in the US.

Andre Jute
At home wherever I land




The American system can only work when Congress represents their
constituents. When a Democrat or Republican congressman votes along
party lines in opposition to the interest of those that elected them
then they need to be voted out. And they need to know that this will
happen.

When Congress can vote strictly along party lines without regard to why
they were elected in the first place, it's not much different than the
parliamentary model with a majority government. The president is
elected separately but without congressional support he is not going to
get much done, recent floods of executive orders notwithstanding.

What seems different to me is that these guys on both sides keep getting
reelected in spite of what they do. I assume this is because people are
too lazy to research what actually occurs in their government and rely
on sound bites from their favorite news channel or what they can see on
Facebook etc.

The really strange thing now is that Trump got in because a lot of
people are tired of the status quo yet Congress is still Republican.

I'm done with political discussions here. If anyone has something to
say about bikes or cycling...

On Tuesday, February 7, 2017 at 6:02:14 AM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
On 07/02/2017 8:16 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
Churchill, who was half an American, and very much at home in the States, said that democracy was the worst of all governing systems, except for all the others. Most well-travelled, thoughtful people agree.

Churchill also said that most people (probably meaning of middle/professional classes but not in politics) admire democracy until they speak to one of the voters who have the numbers to change the government. (I've given a very long paraphrase because you have to understand the context and the nuances.)

About Slow Johnny, Ridesalot Duane's remarks about the Canadian and British systems in the rec.bicycles.tech thread "Bill would ban bicyclists from most 2-lane roads in Montana", you might want to consider for a moment that the British and their colonials had about twice as long to work the kinks out of their system as Americans have, and they haven't avoided coming to blows either (though admittedly their shooting civil wars are half a millennium in the past), and they also have their extreme partisans (for instance the destructive British Labour Left, supposedly wiped out by Tony Blair, who simply packaged Mrs Thatcher's policies in left-wing language to move the party rightward and right into the middle classes, but now resurgent under Jeremy Corbyn).

There's another system that works, though often through deadlock, but it requires a great deal of civilized patience from everyone involved. It is proportional representation. The leading contemporary small-scale system (for ease of studying) is that in Israel, where one can daily see the advantages and disadvantages of proportional representation. Unfortunately, in the larger systems, of which the European Union government is the nastiest example, and several European countries are failed examples, proportional representation eventually leads to passionless, technocratic governments without any philosophy to distinguish the centre-left parties contesting elections. Passion, such as stirred up in parts of their electorates by Muslim immigration, terrorism and rapes, comes as a shock to these technocrats (it is difficult to believe how much they assume a sort of Chicom groupthink is the norm until you see their shock at a breach of the norm), much like Trump came as a shock to the complacent, limp Left in the US.

Andre Jute
At home wherever I land



The American system can only work when Congress represents their
constituents. When a Democrat or Republican congressman votes along
party lines in opposition to the interest of those that elected them
then they need to be voted out. And they need to know that this will
happen.

When Congress can vote strictly along party lines without regard to why
they were elected in the first place, it's not much different than the
parliamentary model with a majority government. The president is
elected separately but without congressional support he is not going to
get much done, recent floods of executive orders notwithstanding.

What seems different to me is that these guys on both sides keep getting
reelected in spite of what they do. I assume this is because people are
too lazy to research what actually occurs in their government and rely
on sound bites from their favorite news channel or what they can see on
Facebook etc.

The really strange thing now is that Trump got in because a lot of
people are tired of the status quo yet Congress is still Republican.

I'm done with political discussions here. If anyone has something to
say about bikes or cycling...

Well, I can say that I want to get back on my bike. I've had this nasty cold, preceded by the week-long snow, preceded by my fall-related hand fracture and surgery. I'm in the worst shape I've ever been. Waaaah.

The weather this year has totally sucked. Snow was predicted for last Friday, but it ended up as 2-3" of rain in a 24hr period. If that had fallen as snow, we'd be up to our eyeballs. My son is getting better weather in Salt Lake City.

Some guy got killed yesterday, hooked by a truck while riding in a bike lane. http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/i...ts_man_on.html

This points out the evil dark-side of bike lanes and drivers who don't understand that bike lanes are "lanes," viz., that another vehicle is or could be operating to the right. Another tip is beware of box trucks and cement trucks. They have a real penchant for squashing cyclists in Portland.

I've also concluded that I entirely agree with Joerg. America should have a vast network of separate bike facilities that go everywhere. Let's start today! I am issuing an executive order to all of my agency heads instructing them to do everything in their power to build separate bike facilities everywhere. I am also instructing them to do everything in their power to make sure every man, woman and child in the US gets his or her own pony -- and a pizza.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Tuesday, February 7, 2017 at 1:39:22 PM UTC, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
incoherent babble

Coming from the master of incoherent babble, that's high praise indeed. (That's a euphemistic way of saying, "You should know, dickhead.")

Thank you so much, my dear fellow.

Andre Jute
Credit where it is due

On Tuesday, February 7, 2017 at 2:02:14 PM UTC, Duane wrote:

I'm done with political discussions here. If anyone has something to
say about bikes or cycling...

I've actually ridden out a few times, though not in the recent cold snap.

http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=12169.0

On Tuesday, February 7, 2017 at 2:41:17 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

Well, I can say that I want to get back on my bike. I've had this nasty cold, preceded by the week-long snow, preceded by my fall-related hand fracture and surgery. I'm in the worst shape I've ever been. Waaaah.

Sorry to hear you're such a cripple.

The weather this year has totally sucked. Snow was predicted for last Friday, but it ended up as 2-3" of rain in a 24hr period. If that had fallen as snow, we'd be up to our eyeballs. My son is getting better weather in Salt Lake City.

That's because the Mormons have a superior morality. The gods are looking after them. (Sorry, Duane. Think of it as religion or philosophy instead of politics.)

....I am issuing an executive order to all of my agency heads ....instructing them to do everything in their power to make sure every man, woman and child in the US gets his or her own pony -- and a pizza.

By close of business I'll have a stay of that pizza and by tomorrow I'll persuade a judge that the proper meme is "a chicken in every pot" (sorry Duane, couldn't help it).

I just came back from a walk with my wife. The return was rather pleasant in 8C because the wind was behind us. But walking into that 18mph wind made decide I did the right thing not to cycle in it.

Andre Jute
First cherry blossoms in the orchard: the trees think it is spring

On 07/02/2017 10:27 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, February 7, 2017 at 2:02:14 PM UTC, Duane wrote:

I'm done with political discussions here. If anyone has something to
say about bikes or cycling...

I've actually ridden out a few times, though not in the recent cold snap.

http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=12169.0

On Tuesday, February 7, 2017 at 2:41:17 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

Well, I can say that I want to get back on my bike. I've had this nasty cold, preceded by the week-long snow, preceded by my fall-related hand fracture and surgery. I'm in the worst shape I've ever been. Waaaah.

Sorry to hear you're such a cripple.

The weather this year has totally sucked. Snow was predicted for last Friday, but it ended up as 2-3" of rain in a 24hr period. If that had fallen as snow, we'd be up to our eyeballs. My son is getting better weather in Salt Lake City.

That's because the Mormons have a superior morality. The gods are looking after them. (Sorry, Duane. Think of it as religion or philosophy instead of politics.)

....I am issuing an executive order to all of my agency heads ....instructing them to do everything in their power to make sure every man, woman and child in the US gets his or her own pony -- and a pizza.

By close of business I'll have a stay of that pizza and by tomorrow I'll persuade a judge that the proper meme is "a chicken in every pot" (sorry Duane, couldn't help it).


While I'm clearly in the pizza camp, a chicken in every pot is ok with
me if it's a pot of gumbo. I doubt that Hoover was thinking in terms of
gumbo but what the hell...

I just came back from a walk with my wife. The return was rather pleasant in 8C because the wind was behind us. But walking into that 18mph wind made decide I did the right thing not to cycle in it.


Snowing here and turning into freezing rain this afternoon. There are
still cyclists out and I saw one this morning avoid an SUV sliding into
him. Gave him a thumbs up. Me, I'm too much of a wimp to deal with
cycling in snow in the morning and ice in the afternoon.

Andre Jute
First cherry blossoms in the orchard: the trees think it is spring



I think this is the first time here that I've seen a political thread
hijacked for cycling matters.

On Tuesday, February 7, 2017 at 9:41:17 AM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 7, 2017 at 6:02:14 AM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
On 07/02/2017 8:16 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
Churchill, who was half an American, and very much at home in the States, said that democracy was the worst of all governing systems, except for all the others. Most well-travelled, thoughtful people agree.

Churchill also said that most people (probably meaning of middle/professional classes but not in politics) admire democracy until they speak to one of the voters who have the numbers to change the government. (I've given a very long paraphrase because you have to understand the context and the nuances.)

About Slow Johnny, Ridesalot Duane's remarks about the Canadian and British systems in the rec.bicycles.tech thread "Bill would ban bicyclists from most 2-lane roads in Montana", you might want to consider for a moment that the British and their colonials had about twice as long to work the kinks out of their system as Americans have, and they haven't avoided coming to blows either (though admittedly their shooting civil wars are half a millennium in the past), and they also have their extreme partisans (for instance the destructive British Labour Left, supposedly wiped out by Tony Blair, who simply packaged Mrs Thatcher's policies in left-wing language to move the party rightward and right into the middle classes, but now resurgent under Jeremy Corbyn).

There's another system that works, though often through deadlock, but it requires a great deal of civilized patience from everyone involved. It is proportional representation. The leading contemporary small-scale system (for ease of studying) is that in Israel, where one can daily see the advantages and disadvantages of proportional representation. Unfortunately, in the larger systems, of which the European Union government is the nastiest example, and several European countries are failed examples, proportional representation eventually leads to passionless, technocratic governments without any philosophy to distinguish the centre-left parties contesting elections. Passion, such as stirred up in parts of their electorates by Muslim immigration, terrorism and rapes, comes as a shock to these technocrats (it is difficult to believe how much they assume a sort of Chicom groupthink is the norm until you see their shock at a breach of the norm), much like Trump came as a shock to the complacent, limp Left in the US.

Andre Jute
At home wherever I land



The American system can only work when Congress represents their
constituents. When a Democrat or Republican congressman votes along
party lines in opposition to the interest of those that elected them
then they need to be voted out. And they need to know that this will
happen.

When Congress can vote strictly along party lines without regard to why
they were elected in the first place, it's not much different than the
parliamentary model with a majority government. The president is
elected separately but without congressional support he is not going to
get much done, recent floods of executive orders notwithstanding.

What seems different to me is that these guys on both sides keep getting
reelected in spite of what they do. I assume this is because people are
too lazy to research what actually occurs in their government and rely
on sound bites from their favorite news channel or what they can see on
Facebook etc.

The really strange thing now is that Trump got in because a lot of
people are tired of the status quo yet Congress is still Republican.

I'm done with political discussions here. If anyone has something to
say about bikes or cycling...

Well, I can say that I want to get back on my bike. I've had this nasty cold, preceded by the week-long snow, preceded by my fall-related hand fracture and surgery. I'm in the worst shape I've ever been. Waaaah.

The weather this year has totally sucked. Snow was predicted for last Friday, but it ended up as 2-3" of rain in a 24hr period. If that had fallen as snow, we'd be up to our eyeballs. My son is getting better weather in Salt Lake City.

Some guy got killed yesterday, hooked by a truck while riding in a bike lane. http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/i...ts_man_on.html

This points out the evil dark-side of bike lanes and drivers who don't understand that bike lanes are "lanes," viz., that another vehicle is or could be operating to the right. Another tip is beware of box trucks and cement trucks. They have a real penchant for squashing cyclists in Portland.

I've also concluded that I entirely agree with Joerg. America should have a vast network of separate bike facilities that go everywhere. Let's start today! I am issuing an executive order to all of my agency heads instructing them to do everything in their power to build separate bike facilities everywhere. I am also instructing them to do everything in their power to make sure every man, woman and child in the US gets his or her own pony -- and a pizza.

-- Jay Beattie.

every community will provide access for criminals on foot

On Tuesday, February 7, 2017 at 6:41:17 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 7, 2017 at 6:02:14 AM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
On 07/02/2017 8:16 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
Churchill, who was half an American, and very much at home in the States, said that democracy was the worst of all governing systems, except for all the others. Most well-travelled, thoughtful people agree.

Churchill also said that most people (probably meaning of middle/professional classes but not in politics) admire democracy until they speak to one of the voters who have the numbers to change the government. (I've given a very long paraphrase because you have to understand the context and the nuances.)

About Slow Johnny, Ridesalot Duane's remarks about the Canadian and British systems in the rec.bicycles.tech thread "Bill would ban bicyclists from most 2-lane roads in Montana", you might want to consider for a moment that the British and their colonials had about twice as long to work the kinks out of their system as Americans have, and they haven't avoided coming to blows either (though admittedly their shooting civil wars are half a millennium in the past), and they also have their extreme partisans (for instance the destructive British Labour Left, supposedly wiped out by Tony Blair, who simply packaged Mrs Thatcher's policies in left-wing language to move the party rightward and right into the middle classes, but now resurgent under Jeremy Corbyn).

There's another system that works, though often through deadlock, but it requires a great deal of civilized patience from everyone involved. It is proportional representation. The leading contemporary small-scale system (for ease of studying) is that in Israel, where one can daily see the advantages and disadvantages of proportional representation. Unfortunately, in the larger systems, of which the European Union government is the nastiest example, and several European countries are failed examples, proportional representation eventually leads to passionless, technocratic governments without any philosophy to distinguish the centre-left parties contesting elections. Passion, such as stirred up in parts of their electorates by Muslim immigration, terrorism and rapes, comes as a shock to these technocrats (it is difficult to believe how much they assume a sort of Chicom groupthink is the norm until you see their shock at a breach of the norm), much like Trump came as a shock to the complacent, limp Left in the US.

Andre Jute
At home wherever I land



The American system can only work when Congress represents their
constituents. When a Democrat or Republican congressman votes along
party lines in opposition to the interest of those that elected them
then they need to be voted out. And they need to know that this will
happen.

When Congress can vote strictly along party lines without regard to why
they were elected in the first place, it's not much different than the
parliamentary model with a majority government. The president is
elected separately but without congressional support he is not going to
get much done, recent floods of executive orders notwithstanding.

What seems different to me is that these guys on both sides keep getting
reelected in spite of what they do. I assume this is because people are
too lazy to research what actually occurs in their government and rely
on sound bites from their favorite news channel or what they can see on
Facebook etc.

The really strange thing now is that Trump got in because a lot of
people are tired of the status quo yet Congress is still Republican.

I'm done with political discussions here. If anyone has something to
say about bikes or cycling...

Well, I can say that I want to get back on my bike. I've had this nasty cold, preceded by the week-long snow, preceded by my fall-related hand fracture and surgery. I'm in the worst shape I've ever been. Waaaah.

The weather this year has totally sucked. Snow was predicted for last Friday, but it ended up as 2-3" of rain in a 24hr period. If that had fallen as snow, we'd be up to our eyeballs. My son is getting better weather in Salt Lake City.

Some guy got killed yesterday, hooked by a truck while riding in a bike lane. http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/i...ts_man_on.html

This points out the evil dark-side of bike lanes and drivers who don't understand that bike lanes are "lanes," viz., that another vehicle is or could be operating to the right. Another tip is beware of box trucks and cement trucks. They have a real penchant for squashing cyclists in Portland.

I've also concluded that I entirely agree with Joerg. America should have a vast network of separate bike facilities that go everywhere. Let's start today! I am issuing an executive order to all of my agency heads instructing them to do everything in their power to build separate bike facilities everywhere. I am also instructing them to do everything in their power to make sure every man, woman and child in the US gets his or her own pony -- and a pizza.

-- Jay Beattie.

On TV this morning they said that 28% of the California vehicle fatalities were bicyclists in San Francisco. That sounds a bit out of hand but don't come to San Francisco for a cycling vacation.

On Tue, 7 Feb 2017 06:41:15 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 7, 2017 at 6:02:14 AM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
On 07/02/2017 8:16 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
Churchill, who was half an American, and very much at home in the States, said that democracy was the worst of all governing systems, except for all the others. Most well-travelled, thoughtful people agree.

Churchill also said that most people (probably meaning of middle/professional classes but not in politics) admire democracy until they speak to one of the voters who have the numbers to change the government. (I've given a very long paraphrase because you have to understand the context and the nuances.)

About Slow Johnny, Ridesalot Duane's remarks about the Canadian and British systems in the rec.bicycles.tech thread "Bill would ban bicyclists from most 2-lane roads in Montana", you might want to consider for a moment that the British and their colonials had about twice as long to work the kinks out of their system as Americans have, and they haven't avoided coming to blows either (though admittedly their shooting civil wars are half a millennium in the past), and they also have their extreme partisans (for instance the destructive British Labour Left, supposedly wiped out by Tony Blair, who simply packaged Mrs Thatcher's policies in left-wing language to move the party rightward and right into the middle classes, but now resurgent under Jeremy Corbyn).

There's another system that works, though often through deadlock, but it requires a great deal of civilized patience from everyone involved. It is proportional representation. The leading contemporary small-scale system (for ease of studying) is that in Israel, where one can daily see the advantages and disadvantages of proportional representation. Unfortunately, in the larger systems, of which the European Union government is the nastiest example, and several European countries are failed examples, proportional representation eventually leads to passionless, technocratic governments without any philosophy to distinguish the centre-left parties contesting elections. Passion, such as stirred up in parts of their electorates by Muslim immigration, terrorism and rapes, comes as a shock to these technocrats (it is difficult to believe how much they assume a sort of Chicom groupthink is the norm until you see their shock at a breach of the norm), much like Trump came as a shock to
the
complacent, limp Left in the US.

Andre Jute
At home wherever I land



The American system can only work when Congress represents their
constituents. When a Democrat or Republican congressman votes along
party lines in opposition to the interest of those that elected them
then they need to be voted out. And they need to know that this will
happen.

When Congress can vote strictly along party lines without regard to why
they were elected in the first place, it's not much different than the
parliamentary model with a majority government. The president is
elected separately but without congressional support he is not going to
get much done, recent floods of executive orders notwithstanding.

What seems different to me is that these guys on both sides keep getting
reelected in spite of what they do. I assume this is because people are
too lazy to research what actually occurs in their government and rely
on sound bites from their favorite news channel or what they can see on
Facebook etc.

The really strange thing now is that Trump got in because a lot of
people are tired of the status quo yet Congress is still Republican.

I'm done with political discussions here. If anyone has something to
say about bikes or cycling...

Well, I can say that I want to get back on my bike. I've had this nasty cold, preceded by the week-long snow, preceded by my fall-related hand fracture and surgery. I'm in the worst shape I've ever been. Waaaah.

The weather this year has totally sucked. Snow was predicted for last Friday, but it ended up as 2-3" of rain in a 24hr period. If that had fallen as snow, we'd be up to our eyeballs. My son is getting better weather in Salt Lake City.

Some guy got killed yesterday, hooked by a truck while riding in a bike lane. http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/i...ts_man_on.html

This points out the evil dark-side of bike lanes and drivers who don't understand that bike lanes are "lanes," viz., that another vehicle is or could be operating to the right. Another tip is beware of box trucks and cement trucks. They have a real penchant for squashing cyclists in Portland.

I've also concluded that I entirely agree with Joerg. America should have a vast network of separate bike facilities that go everywhere. Let's start today! I am issuing an executive order to all of my agency heads instructing them to do everything in their power to build separate bike facilities everywhere. I am also instructing them to do everything in their power to make sure every man, woman and child in the US gets his or her own pony -- and a pizza.

-- Jay Beattie.

Some time ago I calculated what the U.S. would have to do in order to
provide the same services to bicyclists as The Netherlands. On a mile
to mile basis they will have to build a million miles of bikeways.

I can't estimate costs for this other than to comment that some 670
miles of the U.S. - Mexican border has been fenced at a cost of 3.9
million dollars per mile. Based on that, admittedly very low end
guess, a million miles of bikeways might cost 5,820,895 million
dollars.

It might be noted that total income tax paid in 2015 was some
1,231,911 million dollars and the average interest on all government
bonds is 1.97%.
--
Cheers,

John B.