Side-view diagram of climbing rider on bicycle?

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:03:53 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:50:10 -0700, "Dan"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:17:36 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:


wrote: I'm looking for sites that show
climbing (standing or seated) riders from the side (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You're up to something, Carl. What is it?

Dear Leo,

Compadres, it is imperative that we crush the freedom
fighters before the start of the rainy season. And remember,
a shiny new donkey for whoever brings me the head of Colonel
Montoya--

Er, by that I mean, of course, that I'm looking for sites
that show climbing (standing or seated) riders from the
side.

C. Montgomery Burns

Until now I had thought that you were on an intellectual pursuit.
Are poison donuts involved?

Dear Dan,

Err . . . no, sir. I discussed this with our lawyers and
they consider it murder.

W. Smithers

Dear Carl (/another/ Simpsons character),

Do you really want pictures of climbing cyclists /from the side/ as you say,
or from in front or behind (to better show leaning forces at work, as seems
to be your latest buttbuggle)?

Bill "inventing words now" S.

Dear Bill,

Climbing, from the side.

Diagrams or animations would be better for seeing how the
rider is positioned in relation to the seat, bars, and
pedals

Pictures at a right angle would still be worth looking at,
but most pictures that I've found are more three-quarter
shots that don't really let you tell if the hips are behind,
above, or ahead of the pedals (or much else).

I want the angle of this picture with the one-eyed guy (or
his wife) going up a hill on a bicycle:

http://www.arca.net/uffizi/img/1615a-b.jpg

Of course, if you've got a diagram, picture, or animation
that shows how much the rider and bike lean opposite ways
from the front or rear, I'd be glad to have that link, too.

Carl Fogel

wrote: I want the angle of this picture with the
one-eyed guy (or his wife) going up a hill on a bicycle:
http://www.arca.net/uffizi/img/1615a-b.jpg
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This one-eyed guy is wearing a hat with a roll bar, so the next time he goes
over the handlebars he won't damage his nose again.

Dan wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:17:36 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:


wrote: I'm looking for sites that show
climbing (standing or seated) riders from the side (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You're up to something, Carl. What is it?

Dear Leo,

Compadres, it is imperative that we crush the freedom
fighters before the start of the rainy season. And remember,
a shiny new donkey for whoever brings me the head of Colonel
Montoya--

Er, by that I mean, of course, that I'm looking for sites
that show climbing (standing or seated) riders from the
side.

C. Montgomery Burns

Until now I had thought that you were on an intellectual pursuit. Are
poison donuts involved?

Mmmh, doooonuts.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

wrote:

Climbing, from the side.

Have you checked out http://grahamwatson.com/ ?
Or possibly, since you're interested in climbing,
http://www.littlechainring.com/

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:43:02 +0200, "Robert Chung"
wrote:

wrote:

Climbing, from the side.

Have you checked out http://grahamwatson.com/ ?
Or possibly, since you're interested in climbing,
http://www.littlechainring.com/

Dear Robert,

Aha!

In this picture . . .

http://grahamwatson.com/news/images/2005/17may7.jpg

.. . . the arms of both riders are only slightly curved,
their heads are up, and they aren't twisting or dropping a
shoulder, so they look fairly relaxed for a standing climb.

A vertical line dropped from either rider's ear will fall
between the front axle and the intersection of the fork and
tire. (The right edge of the picture makes this very clear
on the far rider, whose face is half cropped.)

The same ear position is shown in this picture, which is
even better:

http://www.littlechainring.com/12%20...climb%20bw.jpg

Look at all those lines on the building and crowd rails in
the background beyond Lance! The camera angle isn't perfect,
but it's as close as we're likely to get to a grid in an
impromptu picture.

Again, a true vertical line (the picture is a bit tilted, so
you have to use the building beyond him) dropped from his
ear appears to descend between his front axle and the
intersection of the fork and tire.

The ear business seems to work, even though Lance is
crouching more, his head is down, and his arms are bent
further than the more relaxed riders standing in the other
picture.)

The headless rider just ahead of Lance is interesting, too.
His right leg is almost fully straightened near the bottom
of the downstroke--and look how far forward he's bent at
this moment and how his body is twisted slightly to his
right, following his descending right foot. His right elbow
is bent back behind the leading edge of his forward-bent
left thigh.

The faint vertical line on the wall beyond Lance is helpful.
A ruler laid along it will touch the back of each of Lance's
elbows, the back of his bent right knee, and the middle of
his left ankle on the downstroke.

His front axle is nicely centered against the bottom of the
crowd railing and aligned with an upright bar--the
background forms a protractor for his front wheel.

Raise a vertical line from the bottom bracket--lay a ruler
parallel to that helpful faint line on the wall.

About 90% of Lance's body is ahead of the bottom bracket.
Only his right foot, part of his lower right leg, and part
of his butt are behind a true vertical line rising from the
bottom bracket.

Do the same thing with the headless rider ahead of Lance,
and you get roughly the same result--practically all of the
rider is forward of a true vertical line rising from the
bottom bracket.

Of course, the bottom bracket is not the true center of
mechanical action in this situation. Lance's foot will
rotate forward as well as downward, bringing it more under
his center of mass about half-way down, and then retreat
backward behind him for the rest of the downstroke.

But it looks to me as if the riders are leaning well forward
onto the bars and curling from side to side, with one elbow
following the foot on each downstroke.

They may be pulling down and toward the downstroke pedal
with one arm, but I think that they must also be pulling the
other way with the other arm to keep their balance. The
angles make it look as if they're doing a lot of forward
leaning on the handlebars--mimic that position while
standing on a scale and leaning against a railing, and
you'll find it hard to pull down enough to make the scale
read your original weight.

I'm starting to think that the real advantage of standing is
not so much "weight on the pedal" as improving the posture
for exerting greater force with the leg muscles themselves.
When standing, the thigh angle is much closer to being
straight relative to the body and has a much better
mechanical advantage--it's closer to the natural human
standing posture than our usual seated position, where our
thighs come up much farther and end up at their feeblest
angle.

Notice how much harder we strain as our thighs start coming
up toward our chests--we can stand easily with our legs bent
only slightly, but once our knees come up to roughly 90
degrees relative to our torsos, things get harder and
harder. Our legs work best when dangling mostly below us.)

Here's the same picture with three black lines that I think
are roughly true vertical, showing how far forward the rider
is leaning:

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/d...lanceclimb.jpg

The real advantage of standing up seems to be how far away
it puts the knees from the chest, not how much weight it
puts above the bottom bracket--the riders seem to be leaning
much farther forward than a "full-weight-on-the-pedal"
theory would allow.

Carl Fogel

wrote in message

http://grahamwatson.com/news/images/2005/17may7.jpg
Lance is helpful.

By any chance was this picture taken at Lance's first SF Grand Prix 2001?
-tom

wrote:


http://www.littlechainring.com/12%20...climb%20bw.jpg

Ah, yes. That picture was taken on Fillmore. The gradient along that block
is about 18%. Here's another photo from the 2002 race on Fillmore that
gives you a clearer picture of its steepness:
http://www.cyclofiend.com/Images/SFG..._ekigroup2.jpg


I'm starting to think that the real advantage of standing is
not so much "weight on the pedal" as improving the posture
for exerting greater force with the leg muscles themselves.

Yeah. Force goes up and cadence goes down.
http://aemes.mae.ufl.edu/~fregly/pdfs/jb2002.pdf

BTW, Fig. 5 in that paper compares peak crank torque for horizontal and
uphill riding.

Tom Nakashima wrote:
wrote in message

http://grahamwatson.com/news/images/2005/17may7.jpg
Lance is helpful.

By any chance was this picture taken at Lance's first SF Grand Prix
2001? -tom

I'm pretty sure that picture was taken at the 2005 Giro d'Italia.

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:44:04 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
wrote:


wrote in message

http://grahamwatson.com/news/images/2005/17may7.jpg
Lance is helpful.

By any chance was this picture taken at Lance's first SF Grand Prix 2001?
-tom

Dear Tom,

Sorry, I ended up just giving the picture links, not the
articles in which they're embedded.

The Lance picture is captioned "Lance Armstrong climbs
Fillmore in 2001" he

http://www.littlechainring.com
http://www.littlechainring.com/12%20...climb%20bw.jpg

It's the top right-hand picture on the littlechainring page.

The other picture is the third one down he

http://grahamwatson.com/news/grahamsnotes27.html
http://grahamwatson.com/news/images/2005/17may7.jpg

It's from the 2005 Giro.

Carl Fogel

wrote in message
...
wrote in message
Lance is helpful.

By any chance was this picture taken at Lance's first SF Grand Prix 2001?
-tom

Dear Tom,

Sorry, I ended up just giving the picture links, not the
articles in which they're embedded.

The Lance picture is captioned "Lance Armstrong climbs
Fillmore in 2001" he

http://www.littlechainring.com
http://www.littlechainring.com/12%20...climb%20bw.jpg


I'm in the picture, that's me standing behind the gal right in front of
Lance's helmet. I got there around 7:00am to claim my spot on Fillmore St.
2001. There was already a huge crowd there and once you got your space, it
was nearly impossible to leave. Some rode their bikes to view the race, as
they had to hand carry above their heads and over the crowd just to move.
Hincapie was awesome! I rode my motorcycle there because of the traffic,
parked a 1/4 block away from Fillmore, but when I tried to leave early, I
was boxed in by Willie "milk it for all it's worth" Brown's entourage. Good
thing Slick Willy didn't stay long and I was able to get out of the city.
-tom